300,000 attended the unveiling of the Goddess of Democracy. People felt the future could be good.
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- Apple ddgdchdchI am a Chinese and feeling really lucky for what our government did at that time. Otherwise we would fell into “American democracy” trap and never have the current economy ever. Look at what democracy looks like in Taiwan these years. Joke.
- @kr taxi drivers in Beijing are very willing to talk CCP with you as well.
Defaming your enemy is a useful weapon, but when you believe in that yourself, you are shooting yourself by your own gun.
You can keep talking ideology, just like what Chinese do in 1960s, while Chinese are focusing on solving economy problems. It’s the economy stupid.
- @kr the problem with western demo-ism and in general is that it has big ego of "our system is best". When anything better surfaces it sees it as a threat and try every means at disposal to crush it. It couldnt tolerate USSR and activated its extreme propaganda machine to the extent of demeaning the word "communism" as evil.
Now, it can not swallow the progress and facts on China's fast paced progress. Its ego is hurt bigtime. But China is not falling in same trap as USSR did. So it frustrates West even more. That is the truth my friend. And I am not even Chinese.
- @Lark71 - I agree that western countries couldn’t “tolerate” USSR. But which country could? Could those Eastern European countries tolerate USSR’s brutal occupation? USSR also planned and helped the separation of Mongolia from China, but yes, CCP loves USSR because it was USSR that helped the CCP to gain power in mainland China.
Can you list countries that tolerated/liked/loved USSR? Here are some hints - CCP’s China? North Korea? Cuba? I guess that even Russia today does not like USSR
- @Lark, it works in Taiwan so stop with the CCP bullshit that democracy is Western. Democracy is a human right.
And if you want to talk about brutalizing people, look what the CCP did to to Cambodia. The CCP owns primary responsibility for the Khymer Rouge and the genocide there. Trained in China, armed by China, with a Maoist ideology. They exported the Cultural Revolution except in a far more murderous form.
Whoops bet your Chinese text book forgot to discuss that.
But trading notes on which country did what is a stupid discussion. The point isn't going away: CCP has been horrible for China and continues to hold the country back. Chinese people deserve so much better and it's a travesty what happened to your country
- op this one is for you . I bet your history books didn’t teach what you guys did to the world.
100 years ago you guys did this to Many countries. One of them is India. Google Jalianwala bagh massacre
- Please provide your evidence to support the “hundreds of millions” you mentioned. But the CCP is the only party that has starved over 30 million (or much more according to studies) Chinese people to death in the 60’s.
That would be a number MUCH bigger than the UK killed in India in history
- Bengal famine happened during WW2, while the CCP-caused starvation happened during the peaceful time in 60’s.
More importantly, up to 3 million people died in Bengal famine, whereas the CCP starvation caused at least 10X more deaths.
Even more seriously, if you think again, the CCP starvation was purely man-made, killing Chinese people by the Chinese rulers. And they have been denying the real cause of the starvation until today. How evil that sounds like?!May 31 4
- Question mark, I am with you on that China should eventually move to democracy and it is better than communism as history tells us.
However, I strongly disagree about the part where you justify civilization by force. Civilization should be pursued by its own people not externally.
BTW, no Europeans forced civilization. They just invaded and stole for their own profit. Not a single effort was to help the local people. Locals never asked for help. Spanish committed genocide in South America. French and British fcked up the whole Africa and Indian area. They gave guns to Japan and allow them to commit Nazi like crimes in Asia. They sold drug to easily manipulate China. If you agree to those horrible wrongdoings, how can you criticize what CCP has been doing? You don’t have to bring that or defend it to argue for democracy.
Europeans had power and they did horrible things to the entire continent and many more. If you don’t recognize that, I don’t see how I can trust whatever you say. It is like if they do, it is crime. If we do, it is for the better.Jun 2 1
- I agree with you - Colonialism was not a good thing; and it brought suffering to the colonized countries and people. Colonialism has existed for a long time in the history (dated back to hundreds of years BC), until it was ended after WW2 (from 1945 to 1975).
It took human so many years and the huge losses of two modern world wars to realize the true value of civilization - most of today’s social norms, common values, and human rights were widely accepted and practiced as rule of laws only after WW2.
We are blessed to live in the best era of human development (so far) - we respect human rights, pursue freedom, promote democracy, advocate peace... and more importantly, we reflect on those evils that have been done in history, attempting to prevent them from happening again in the future. Human civilization deserves a brighter future.
- It doesn't matter if your country is a number one super power end everyone bathes in butter and honey - if you don't have have freedom of speech and freedom of assembly you are a fucking slave. Chines people who approve their government are slaves, plain and simple.
(I am not an American, btw)
- @john most Americans are so brainwashed in believing that only their system or country is best. They are unable to imagine that anything else can be better. Even if you show them real progress of China with fully-paid trip, still they will say it was just made up and happy people were actors. So just let them live in their fantasy.
- It is fascinating how CCP could cover up all this. The new Chinese generations barely know anything about the event unless some foreigners tell them about the event
- If you think communism is bad and China is communist then China will
Suffer. Why are you so much worried about China. You just be happy in trumps democratic America and stop meddling with others.
- Thumbtack lmEM47How do you define brainwashed? Use data not bullshit. I could say you are brainwashed by us media.
The fact is China has been growing fast for last 30 years and now catching up to a point that US fears. Chinese become richer and living much better lives than before and that’s what we care about.
- China was basically a feudal country ravaged by war with Japan until Mao. The idea that they should have "passed" (what does that even mean) the US in the 1960s is hilarious and shows you have little to no grasp on history.
Look at the rapid industrialization of the USSR in the late 20s through 50s. They went from a near feudal state to the one sending rockets into space. The only other society that has experienced such rapid industrialization is China in the last 30 years.
- So was Taiwan. Why are they doing so much better?
Answer: without the CCP you would not have suffered the GLF and CR and would have had a market economy decades earlier and been a lot further ahead.
This is just fact. Though, not really taught in your school which instead makes you read the idiotic red book.
- I'm not from China.
Why do you think market economies are the best form of structuring a society? They are highly inefficient, predatory, and exploitative of the lower classes. Do you know the CIA covered up in 1983 that the Soviet Union was better fed than Americans? https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/cia-rdp84b00274r000300150009-5
- If you don't think market economies are best we're done, you don't have valid opinions. China grew because Deng finally allowed the market economy to exist in China. No other reason.
In fact China is a case study for it. After decades of failing they adopted market economies and boomed.
Chinese people were just as smart and hard working in the 70s as in the 80s, but the CCP held them back.
- Japan, S Korea and Taiwan all had better growth with much more freedom for their people than China or Russia. The reason we worry about China is because China is not sitting still. Some may be racists but people like Koreans worry about China and have so much complaints about Chinese government as it has been acting like a bully. US has been a bully as well but it does so with much better class. China has a long way to go. The people need to be educated and it will take a generation before they can act like a good civilian. Economic growth to this scale is achievable with authoritarian government. South Korea and Taiwan had authoritarian government till 1980s. Tech and manufacturing are not only the secondary and thirdly level. For better citizenship, you need cultural improvement.
- Google C50dKtIt ok though. We're developing ever more sophisticated filtering algorithms so nobody ever sees this again 🤑
- Let's fellow Chinese develop a new non-Ametican way(which is happening right now), unite most of countries in the globe and isolate USA.
- China is a brutal dictatorship with a horrific government that set the country back decades.
Chinese people and culture on the other hand are awesome, and deserve so much better than to be under the boot of a dictator.
You can keep telling me about how Chinese people are different and don't mind being abused so long as the master gives them a few crumbs, but I have lots of successful Chinese friends. Every one of them is doing what they can to move their family's money to the US or Canada or another country so they can be free from the CCP.
Every Chinese knows it's horrible, you just don't like admitting it to strangers online.
- @kR1vg, it is not about anti American. As a matter of fact most American people are good. However the Americsn government and the system is so bad. We Chinese aim to develop a new/advanced system and benefit most of the people on the globe. This will change the order of powers and many American won't be happy for now. But eventually they will see it and follow the new system.
- IEEE, the Chinese system is a brutal dictatorship that imprisons people arbitrarily, caused a genocide in Cambodia, and takes away freedom.
There's a reason why all Chinese who are able to move their savings out of China to the US or Canada or another country where it can't be arbitrarily seized by the Communists so don't bullshit.
I bet you're one of them. I bet you're building up assets in the US and trying to keep you money outside of China. I bet everyone you know is doing that if they can.
Go to Vancouver and see all the children of the rich Chinese, and the multiple houses they own. They are all there to escape from the CCP's reach.
- The only thing that's going to help is getting rid of Xi, but you don't have any way to do that because he's an out of control dictator.
You guys had horrifically bad leaders before Deng, resulting in extreme poverty, no growth, and widespread starvation. That's what the CCP did to your country.
Then you had a couple of good leaders from Deng through Jiang. This is where most of your growth occurred, regularly exceeded 10% per year. They deserve the credit, they built the foundation, created the private businesses that generated all the wealth.
Then you had Hu, he was kind of a nobody, didn't really do anything and stuff just sort of continued.
But now you have Xi and he is a wreck. Your growth rates have fallen to 5 to 6 percent which is terrible for a country with only a per capita 9k GDP.
You need to get him out. He keeps diverting money and financing to his pet state owned companies which stagnate and lose money. The idiot is back to the central planning that wrecked China for decades.
He is starving the innovative private companies that generated all the wealth by cutting off their financing and subsidizing state owned companies that compete with them.
Know why you are hearing a lot more militaristic jingoism in China now? Because he can't point to economic success to get people to submit to his rule.
He's a fuck up.
And that's where democracy wins. It's not that democracy picks better leaders, we have just as bad a track record at China does at picking leaders. We sometimes get a good one, sometimes a bad one, just like China does.
But here's the difference: we can kick the bad ones out and limit the damage. They get 8 years tops via term limits and we can boot them after 4 years if it's really bad.
Also the power of a president like Trump is severely limited by Congress, the Senate, and the Courts. He is not an absolute dictator like Xi is. He can't just jail or kill his enemies and no matter how crazy he gets his power isn't absolute. There is a real limit on how much damage he can do.
So here's the insight:
Democracy limits the downside of getting a bad leader which means the West didn't suffer a great leap forward or a cultural revolution and when we do get a fuck up like Xi we can boot him out of office when he fails, it at least severely limit how much harm he does.
You can't. You're stuck suffering under Xi's bad decisions liked until he dies of old age. You have no way to get him out.Jun 2 2
- Which country will follow the leadership of China? None. Which country will follow US? Almost all except a few. Even China had been following US. I admit Trump is aberrant but no one in their right mindset follows China. China had remarkable growth but its peoples mindset, culture, economy, health care, education and most are still like developing countries. People have very narrow view. I don’t think current Chinese adults will ever be on par with people of developed countries. It will take two generations. China did a great job but you are delusional if you think other countries will choose China over US. Even Russian wouldn’t. See N Korea is trying to get close to US. Todays China has been going backwards and become more like N Korea, including some of its people as evident by some comments here.
- eBay goforIT!Its a very interesting debate if communism is good or democracy. China has been one of the fastest growing economies because of communism but the question is 1) if it can sustain and 2) if people are happy with it.
- Let's be clear why China has grown so fast: it's just catching up to where it should have been DECADES ago.
When you have a guy who was farming with sticks and you give him a shovel his productivity increased by an order of magnitude. Then you give him a plow and he's again ten times as productive. Then you give him a tractor...
Ditto on the industrial sector, you take people who were sewing by hand and you give them a sewing machine. Then the give them an automated line machine.
But China should have had these things forty years ago like the US did.
And why didn't it? Because the CCP thoroughly fucked the country and sent it back into the stone ages through the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution.
It was a fucking disaster.
Without the CCP China would be forty years further ahead. It would also be free. CCP is not the reason for China's growth. CCP is the reason China is still so far behind where it should be.
- Facebook risMao Zedong died, along with his iron grip on the CCP, and Deng Xiaoping was finally allowed to carry out his market reforms. Both were important CCP members. In China, the politics are internal to the party instead of between two or more parties, but this doesn't mean the CCP is a monolith, it has a very complex internal structure with much internal debate and various factions vying for influence. We tend to see it as a single-minded dictatorship because "one-party state" is all we learn about China from our press, but it's rather more considered than that.
Consider it analogous to how a large company is managed - certainly not a democracy, emphasis on "apolitical and objective" measurements of performance, internal politics regardless, a general desire for efficient process in making and implementing policy decisions. Mildly oppressive, but we don't complain as long as the company is doing well. Democracy is not one of their values, and so their politicians don't have to spend their energy on strategizing on how to best appeal to an electorate - party admission is based on "technical and educational merit" (and of course some measure of loyalty), similar to private employment here. The vast majority are there based on competency in some actual field, not as career politicians (until you get closer to the top, another similarity).
The party is also 88 million in size and represents a cross-section of society, with some 26 million being common labourers - as every member has some degree of influence (a vote) at their level of the decision-making process, it essentially amounts to a "centralized democracy" (official term) where as an average joe, you get to participate if you are within the 10 percent of applicants who pass their qualifications, and are given much more direct influence than as a voter in a western democracy. It becomes a much more interesting system of government to consider once you understand how it's structured within the society it governs. Without knowing these details, there is nothing else to do but to assume it's simply a dystopian version of our own political system, with our politicians being out-of-touch elites. Instead, it's a different approach entirely.
- Xi changed the law so that he can be the top leader indefinitely, just like Mao. In fact, a saying in China goes by “Xi does not want to be the son of his father (a reformer in CCP), but want to be the grandson of Mao”
So history repeats itself - you have a MaoV2 in place for indefinite time. You will soon see the V2 of those political movements that Mao used to kill millions again.
- In fact Taiwan developped its economy exactly during the dictatorship. When it comes to the 2party era, its economy stoped growing. Prople lost hope and rushed to China for jobs, SAD!
- Amazon emonThat's CCP BS. You suffered extreme poverty because central planning doesn't work. Stop believing this BS. It was 100% the communists who either murdered or sent to forced labor camps everyone who knew how to run a business, every engineer, every factory owner. Then ignorant communist political hacks tried to plan the entire Chinese economy from Beijing and the result was millions of people starved.
That's what happened.Jun 6 1
- Google rAnD0mNam3I am a Chinese and I am often shocked by complacency of my fellow Chinese. Problems are not being solved if they aren't recognized.
Yes, China is a huge economy as a whole, but is not rich on per capita basis on almost all metrics. And Mainland China & Hong Kong have a huge wealth gap (arguably bigger than the US) among economic classes. Chinese people here in the US are all from rich families and it is easy to look at skyscrapers in Shanghai & Beijing to think China is prosperous, but numbers don't lie. If you are Chinese and reading this text, you are probably 1% already.
Chinese people are the most smart people I have ever seen, we value education and hard work. It is just sad to see such an amazing group of people ruled by such bad government and system. There is so much potential to be explored. And thinking about those lives lost, not only on Tiananmen Square, but all those tragedies under CCP's watch, sad, just sad.
- New / Eng 🐍 snakeJust test how good Google Translate is.
“You have to know that 1.4 billion people are very difficult to manage. If China implements American-style democracy, then the whole China will definitely become a mess. You also come from China, so you should admit that the Chinese are not united in the bones, if the power is decentralized. Basically, it is going to split the next five generations and ten countries. This is also the result that the United States is most willing to see. I hope that you can take a look at the democratic process in India and Taiwan, and perhaps understand what I said.”Jun 7 0
- totally agree. chinese people work so hard. they know only working hard can catch up. they do not want to waste time keeping electing some stupid presidents who only care about short term impact like facebook does. they care more about being #1 of this world in a long run.
- There’s hope to get it all back. First step is getting rid of dissidents opinions: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/business/twitter-china-tiananmen.html