@People who disagree with James Damore's memo

New Ggdcg
May 15 78 Comments

Do you believe that men and women have the same biology? If so, then should we stop segregating sports competitions by gender? What would you think about having a man fight a woman in a UFC octagon?

If you're going to say that physical abilities are not analogous to mental/psychological inclinations, then my next question would be is neuroscience just a pseudoscience? Because the consensus in neuroscience is that "form follows function" and male and female brains are definitely different anatomically speaking (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969295/).

Also I mean NO offense to anyone. I am genuinely looking for a cogent argument from the people who disagreed with Damore's memo.

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TOP 78 Comments
  • Google / Eng
    JLo ☑️

    GoogleEng

    PRE
    Amazon
    JLo ☑️more
    Men and women have different biology and different brain structure. They also have different hormonal balance which affects mood and disposition. Anyone who disagrees with that simple reality is kidding themselves.

    Where the memo is dead wrong is where he's trying to justify which gender makes a better software engineer because we don't fucking know. Not only that, we don't even have a real canonical set of metrics that define a software engineer. What we have is a set of business metrics we care to see and both genders have shown equal level of capability against those loosely defined arbitrary business metrics.

    Furthermore the memo questions the value of trainings specialized for one gender. That is also wrong because historically and presently the opportunities are not equal for both genders due to biases still present so if we want equal outcomes for both genders then we need to reverse some of the damage done to one of them in the space of availability of opportunities.
    May 1537
    • Microsoft Context
      @JLo, “same outcome for the same input (I assume you meant input)”...

      That’s exactly what equal opportunity is. That we all have the chance to succeed if we put in the work. Etc etc.

      Equal outcomes is exactly what it says. No matter what, outcomes are equal. It’s basic English. You shouldn’t call people narrow-minded when you’re the one conflating equal opportunity and outcome.

      Your heart’s in the right place, clearly, and I guess we agree. Equal opportunity. An equal chance to succeed. An equal multiplier applied to effort. So many of us want that. And I like to believe the best of people and I think many of us have good intentions with our views.

      But there is no complexity about the phrase “equal outcome”. Nothing deep or “wide-minded” to be perceived there. It is exactly what it says.
      May 17
    • Google / Eng
      JLo ☑️

      GoogleEng

      PRE
      Amazon
      JLo ☑️more
      No I mean output. Women are paid less for the same amount of work done (output). If a man is aggressive they are seen as a leader, if a woman is aggressive she is seen as hormonal.

      Equal output doesn't reward equally across genders.

      Fwiw I am a man.
      6d
    • Nvidia dynosight
      As if being a man lends more credibility to arguments of this nature
      6d
    • Google / Eng
      JLo ☑️

      GoogleEng

      PRE
      Amazon
      JLo ☑️more
      No, it doesn't. But I'm sure many are wondering if I'm female or a feminist. I'm neither. It's just good strategy to reward performance, not gender. Women do great things just as much as men and if we continue to be shitty to them as a society then we are squandering their potential.
      6d
    • Microsoft Attosoft
      @JLo, the work done you‘re calling output is actually the input.

      Advocating for equal reward/salary/output for equal input is advocating for equal opportunity/ equal treatment.

      The socio-economic matter of “equal outcomes” is different from what you think it means.
      6d
    • Microsoft Attosoft
      Even your original top-level post talks multiple times about opportunities and how they’re unequally available.

      That’s advocating for equal opportunity.

      Think of it like a linear amplifier. A black box. It gets an input, multiples it by its “gain”, and that’s the output.

      A * x = B, where A is input, x is gain, B is output.

      Advocating for everybody having the same x is advocating for equal opportunity.

      Advocating for everybody having the same B no matter what their A is, is advocating for “equal outcomes”.
      6d
    • Microsoft Attosoft
      By the way, wasn’t it discovered at Google recently that women were earning slightly more than men for the same work?

      Your enthusiasm in alleging and condemning discrimination appears to have no more impact than preaching to the choir.

      I don’t think anybody here, nor James Damore, was advocating for women to be treated in a “shitty” manner or discriminated against in terms of ‘x’.

      And by the way, the data on the gender “pay gap” isn’t as emphatic in either direction as your claim that “women are paid less for the same work done”. Particularly in big tech, which I assume is the context here.
      6d
    • New Ggdcg
      OP
      If a female produces the same quality of work as her male coworkers, do you think she would be compensated differently?
      6d
    • Nvidia dynosight
      How is it that maybe men on average "lean in" and negociate better historically and that's why there's a pay difference between same positions?

      Does that make the most common sense rather than all of these other complex sociological theories for the how world is unfair?
      6d
    • Microsoft Attosoft
      If we accepted such simple explanations, it would create even less demand for the sociology degrees that churn out theory after theory.

      They have it bad enough, as is.
      5d
  • Tableau krxi15
    From what people on blind have reported, James Damore was a shit tier SWE himself, so I wouldn’t pay much attention to what he has to say about other people’s skills.
    May 155
    • Microsoft
      Tier 1

      Microsoft

      BIO
      #1 in Prestige
      Tier 1more
      What? He was a top performer, had max rewards, and was quickly promoted
      May 15
    • Tableau krxi15
      And still he felt threatened by women in his job?
      May 15
    • Microsoft
      Tier 1

      Microsoft

      BIO
      #1 in Prestige
      Tier 1more
      No he didn’t feel threatened. Listen to his interviews.
      May 15
    • Tableau krxi15
      Lol, why would I even bother wasting any time listening to some random white guy who has a beef with women? There are far more important things to do.
      May 15
    • Microsoft
      Tier 1

      Microsoft

      BIO
      #1 in Prestige
      Tier 1more
      But he doesn’t.
      May 15
  • Wayfair Oktc58
    Yes, women are anatomically different. Yes, that creates a difference in performance in sports. No, you cannot infer that women are in any way inferior in any cognitive capacity as a result.

    Look at this chart. Did women suddenly start performing worse in computer science in the 80s? Or did CS suddenly become an economically desirable field of study? Which do you think is more plausible?

    https://m.imgur.com/pkZPrOI
    May 1515
    • New / Eng|l|l||l|l|
      He did not say women are "inferior in cognitive capacity".

      The chart shows comparative participation rate, not performance. It could be cause by either fewer women doing it or more men doing it, we don't know from the chart.

      Yes it's probably caused by social factors, which could be changes in the field which made computer science more appealing to men or less appealing to girls, or due to marketing of computer products in general (computers being marketed as toys for boys while Barbie being marketed for girls in the 80s for example) or various other factors that are not necessarily classified as oppression or hostile environment towards women.
      May 15
    • Tesla dizzypop
      Imagine being so clueless about humanity that you seriously think a grand conspiracy marketed Barbies to girls to keep them subjugated.

      Girls really wanted to play with things like cars and weapons and computers, but evil patriarchy marketed Barbies and here we are!

      😂
      May 15
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Marketing has no impact? Do you think that if you use a “lady razor” for your face... it won’t shave man-hair?

      Why are there “girl” legos now? It used to be a unisex toy with photos of boys and girls playing... then they segregated it for no other reason than marketing.
      May 15
    • Tesla dizzypop
      Think deeper - why did marketing departments come up with products specialized for women?
      May 15
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Differentiating a line in crowded market conditions.

      “This Kleenex is for men, so there must be some different needs in tissues and so I’ll go with the one for men just to be safe... it surely can’t be the case that they simply put tissues in a black and chrome box instead of one with flowers on it!”
      May 15
    • Microsoft PhitteMooh
      That’s all great and but the difference in STEM fields goes even higher in more egalitarian societies like Sweden and Norway
      May 15
    • Tesla dizzypop
      Or maybe women love having stuff made “for women” bc I don’t know, they don’t feel like men or something crazy like that.

      If you want everyone equal then go to China under Mao, for anything else there’s capitalism and its plethora of choices.
      May 15
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Lol “think deeper”
      May 15
    • New / Eng|l|l||l|l|
      dizzypop did you even read my comment properly? I said social factors like marketing and other factors are NOT necessarily classified as oppression, where did I say anything about a conspiracy?
      May 15
    • Tesla dizzypop
      I was replying to EllisDee25
      May 16
  • Microsoft Amaga🇺🇸
    How much of the crowd here claiming women and men are different in body but not in mind claimed until recently that there are no biological differences to begin with. In other words, different hormon levels, different physical attributes don't manifest into mental differences?! And mental differences don't lead in any way to different life choices? 🤣🤣
    May 1510
    • Amazon edyc6
      Zero.

      Women are probably better at tech than men just like they turned out to be better at law and better at medicine after a century of being told those weren't feminine jobs.
      May 15
    • Microsoft Amaga🇺🇸
      ^^ It's not about who is better at it, but who goes for it. It doesn't even have to be the right choice long term: most high paying jobs are high paying for a reason ...
      May 15
    • Amazon edyc6
      Who goes for it is purely social influence which is why we see so many more women in tech in other countries.

      The claim Damore made that it was biological rather than socialized is just utter bullshit.
      May 15
    • Tableau krxi15
      Agreed it’s bullshit. Indian and asian women prove that wrong, I mean didn’t he see that working at Google or did he meant to imply his memo for only American women.
      May 15
    • Microsoft Amaga🇺🇸
      Do tell us, is the ratio between Asians like 50/50?! On a side note, last time I checked India was in Asia ... 😂
      May 16
    • Amazon edyc6
      It's much higher than what we see here
      May 16
    • Tableau krxi15
      @microsoft, welcome to America, you seem like a FOB. Asian is a term used in North America to refer to people from east Asia. India and other western asian countries are not considered in that.
      May 16
    • Microsoft Amaga🇺🇸
      Mich higher, right. 😂 What's the number - 40%? Share your thoughts so all of us from engineering can have a good laugh ...
      May 16
    • Tableau krxi15
      Yes Microsoft its close to 50%. My undergrad in CS back in India was close to 50% females in class. My masters in US had same amount of asian men and women. In my 4 teams in 10 years in US, I had the same ratio of asian men and women. It was the white and black women that were missing.
      May 16
    • Microsoft dickadent
      You are a liar or a moron. Microsoft has a huge number of Indian males. The number of Indian females is not even close.
      May 16
  • Amazon stega
    Damore's "memo" was pseudoscience based more on stereotype than on research. Even if you think there are differences it's unlikely they are the stereotypical things he put in the memo.

    He would quote some research and then extrapolate it ridiculously in stereotypical ways.

    One example (there are very many examples but I only need one to illustrate the problem):

    He quoted a study that showed women had marginally lower performance on a rote task when they were subject to physical discomfort. The study called this discomfort "stress", though they made no claim it represents anything other than physical discomfort.

    Damore then extrapolated in two ridiculous ways:

    1. He assumed he could use this as proof women don't handle any kind of stress well

    And

    2. He assumed he could equate this rote task to technology work

    None of that is logical or scientific, that's just him randomly listing an article that used the word "stress" and then spewing a garbage stereotype. That type pseudoscience extrapolation and stereotype exists in almost all he wrote. In almost every case the study he listed had no valid relationship to the conclusion he tried to draw.

    He was justly and properly fired for being a hateful bigot.
    May 150
  • Google ry5Q94
    Nah if you'd look at foreign engineers you'd see a much more even gender distribution. Women are just as capable as men in the field, provided they're not raised in the west it seems.

    This goes both ways by the way. It would be just as wrong to say that men are somehow less capable than women as nurses or teachers.
    May 151
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Yup!

      Teaching used to be considered a male profession while women were seen as natural technical workers — because it was seen like a typing pool or secretarial work.

      Using biological determinism to explain 20 year old trends in human-made conditions of jobs... is just an attempt to explain away and excuse the status-quo.
      May 15
  • Uber gasdgrzx
    Ben Shapiro has entered the chat
    May 150
  • Credit Karma EllisDee25
    OP’s making a straw-argument.

    People were upset not by “the science” but by this guy arguing tired sexist tropes about his co-workers with a thin veneer of appealing to “science”. (I’m sure at some point in the 1800s some social-Darwinist said, “Social-Darwinism is pseudoscience? my word, you don’t think evolution is science!”)

    People use to make similar arguments that black folks naturally wanted to be nannies and servants or porters because more complex tasks were biologically beyond their interest or reach.

    Funny that in Damore’s intro he includes ethnicity... but then never makes the case like he attempts for gender. Maybe pulling some studies about biological differences by ethnicity and then arguing that black people like to work low-paid jobs was a little too obviously social-Darwinist for him to attempt?
    May 150
  • Travelport / Engbuttnpushr
    Stale meem. Redpillers are too 2017. Pass
    May 150
  • Microsoft
    Tier 1

    Microsoft

    BIO
    #1 in Prestige
    Tier 1more
    If you don’t believe the memo, watch this https://youtu.be/JUxY_5-N81Q
    May 150

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