Amazon - Negotiate to get Principal PM from Sr.PM

McKinsey McKanon
May 25 44 Comments

I have been offered a Sr.PM-T role at Amazon Seattle. This is in the last mile technology group which I understand is one of the key focus areas for Amazon and is experiencing rapid growth and investment. Couple of questions

- Can I negotiate to get a Principal PM role? (The original job posting shared with me was for Principal PM but later the same link started showing that it was a Sr.PM-T role)
- How many years can it take to get promoted to a Principal if I join as a L6? If I come in at the higher end of a L6, does that mean I can make L7 within 2 years?
- Amazon employees working in the last mile delivery group, is this an exciting space within the company to be in?

This is an important decision for me and if you want to troll or have something snarky to say, please don’t bother responding.

Haven’t received the final offer yet - will update TC once I do.

YOE: 10 ( various roles across Software Eng, Data Science, PM and Consulting)

Update: 5 years at a FANG - 3 yrs as a Data Architect and 2 as PM, 3 years at startups before that

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TOP 44 Comments
  • Amazon hot 🍞
    Going from 6 to 7 is a difficult promotion, 6 is a terminal level. A 2 year promo would be impressive, and you're not going to convince them to give you 7 with your non fang experience.
    May 25 8
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      I had left FANG 4 years ago to do an MBA and then at McK for 2 years. Amazon because I think the last mile delivery group is solving a very tough and interesting problem. Would love to be involved in that
      May 25
    • Cisco / Product U there
      I see, makes perfect sense! It’s us know how it went with your negotiation!
      May 25
    • Comcast tlXA65
      I have gone through a similar process. L7 is a different loop altogether. You would have to go through the interview process again- does not take that long and multiple days. It can be done in one all day interviews as well but just negotiating won’t do it. IMHO
      May 25
    • Tableau barryleft
      L6 to L7 = 4.5 years maybe the norm but there are always exceptions. Look at this guys path:
      https://www.linkedin.com/in/udit-madan-9317b15/
      Aug 13
    • Cisco / Product U there
      😹☝️
      Aug 13
  • Amazon / Product
    Purr

    Amazon Product

    PRE
    Microsoft, Google
    Purrmore
    Lol 2 years at a pm doesn’t get you a 7
    May 25 1
  • Amazon Kindlez
    L7 is the hardest level to crack at Amazon. You can't just negotiate to get to L7 because the interviewers level is different.

    To give you some perspective, a junior director (L8)in my org was a partner at McK for 13 years.
    May 25 1
    • Amazon seekk
      Unless you work at FCs where you go from L4 to L8 in 4-5 yrs 😂😂😂
      May 25
  • Amazon Sev-2Drunk
    So you can’t negotiate like that at that level. Several considerations:
    1) if they though you over performed in the interview, ie you were interviewing at L6 but during the interview you showed skills at L7 level they would have brought that up in the debrief and you could have been up leveled.
    2) L7 could have been off the table if the interview panel didn’t include anyone at that level or above. Let’s assume that your panel included half L6 and have L7 interview people. L7 is off the table because (by practice) you can’t calibrate someone one level above you. IE an L6 can’t calibrate someone at L7 level. An L4 can’t calibrate L5 etc... this happens the same with the way we promote people. During the promotion process we can only review promotions at our level or below. So as an L6, I have to leave the room when we review L7+

    3) if you really really push for hard for L7 and they agree to have a second look at you, I’ve been told you may have to come in for another loop. But keep in mind if you take that hardline approach, your basically telling the panel (including the Bar Raiser) they got your calibration wrong.

    In my opinion Don’t push for L7, take the L6 and come in and rock it and get promoted on your own merits.
    May 25 5
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Really appreciate the detailed response. Makes a lot of sense. My interviewed were a mix of L6 and L7.
      May 25
    • Amazon / Eng snackers
      One more consideration to this quality post - you can negotiate salary hard and try to get into L7 pay range. Recruiters have the ability to make that happen if they like you.
      May 25
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Thanks @snackers. What would be a entry level L7 TC?
      May 25
    • Amazon Sev-2Drunk
      As a HM, I had someone I was interviewing at an L4 level but I was open to bring them on at L5. I was told by a BR that I could not have a single L4 on the loop in order for that consideration to happen. The interview panel had to be L5 or above. Not a big deal at those lower levels, but again I stress the practice at Amazon that you can’t calibrate above your level. So if your interview panel was a mix of L6 & L7, then L7 was simply off the table during the calibration.

      Still it’s the BR responsibility that if there was overwhelming data points from the L7s that you were coming in at the L7 level to have that conversation with the HM (are we calibrating the candidate appropriately?) Doesn’t sound like that was the case if they offered you L6.
      May 25
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Makes sense. And appreciate you taking the time to explain this in detail.
      May 25
  • Amazon amazons
    No, level is not negotiable.

    L6 to L7 takes 4-5 years on average for those who make it. Fastest I’ve ever seen is 2.5. So no I don’t think 2 years is realistic.
    May 25 0
  • Amazon Veritas1
    Getting promo in 2 years from a new hire L6 Sr PMT role to L7 PMT will be SUPER stretched. There is a very high business as well as tech bar which needs approval from Tech VPs and directors for L7 promo cases of L6 PMTs. I have heard mixed reviews about last mile and the organization is undergoing crazy changes (so not among the best teams at Amazon either)
    May 25 2
    • Amazon SEASett
      Yeah, as an MBA -> Management Consultant -> 2 years at amazon, I’d stay away from last mile.
      May 25
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Can you tell me some of the issues with the last mile org that you know about or have experienced?
      May 25
  • Microsoft UMbR31
    Late APs join at L7 if they're super lucky and have many yoe before that. So if your A2/EM etc, then joining at L7 is very hard.
    May 25 0
  • Amazon
    chimi1234

    Amazon

    PRE
    Google, Microsoft
    chimi1234more
    I am not going to comment if you deserve L7 or not because I don’t know your experience and the kinds of problems that you have solved or are capable of. But I can say that promotions to L7 are NOT easy in Amazon. Every level is difficult but until L6 it’s alright but everything from L7 takes a very LONG time as that is when you truly enter the inner circle of leadership roles. If your priority is L7 then I would ask the recruiter why you were not given L7 and if they can do a L7 loop.
    May 25 1
    • Amazon Sev-2Drunk
      Agree with this. That final question is an easy one to ask the recruiter with no downside.
      May 25
  • Amazon / Product cufy70
    I went from 6 to 7 within two years of joining as an experienced L6 PMT, so it’s possible, but not a given. And no, not negotiable. If you like the team and the scope of role, don’t let level deter you.
    May 28 1
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Thank you! Encouraging to hear that
      May 28
  • Amazon saywha
    If you are coming from McKinsey don’t take l6pm job. It is same level as incoming new MBA grad
    May 25 0
  • Uber gonebye
    A friend had offer from last mile and it sounded like a shit show. If you are non tech (sounds like it with MBA) then you might enjoy. It's a lot of stupid logistics churn with no technology and dealing with warehouse and delivery. If you are looking for PM-T then this is not. If you are just doing some MBA shit and have no interest in tech then this is for you.

    HM promised her promo to L7 in 2 years but she didn't buy it and rejected
    May 25 0
  • Amazon jeeef
    Last Mile is a shit show
    May 25 0
  • Twitch / Product WeOQ66
    ^With two years of experience as an Associate, he definitely isn’t going to command an L7 role.
    May 25 3
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Why did you assume I am a guy?😀
      May 26
    • Twitch / Product WeOQ66
      Fair! Sorry about that =). Most of the people I know who went to McK were guys, so I probably filled in the blanks
      May 26
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      No worries.
      May 26
  • Amazon tried/
    I moved out of this org in the recent past. It’s a key focus area for growth but has incompetent leadership with little to no vision. One of the worst leaderships amongst all the orgs in amazon I’ve been with. Your growth will be uncertain as I don’t see this as an organization that focuses on its people. Add to that horrible WLB.
    Jun 5 1
    • McKinsey McKanon
      OP
      Thanks for sharing this. Can you describe what was your experience? And what were the hours like?
      Jun 7
  • Tableau barryleft
    L6 to L7 = 4.5 years maybe the norm but there are always exceptions. Look at this guys path:
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/udit-madan-9317b15/
    Aug 13 0
  • Amazon yacht 🛥
    Some principles at amazon are at a level of director/VP at other companies.
    Jun 5 0
  • McKinsey McKanon
    OP
    Thank you all for your inputs! Really helps me understand the levelling requirements and process.

    Can you please help what range the TC will be for a L6 PMT? And how many RSUs + Signing Bonus (Y1/Y2). Will help me negotiate a good offer
    May 25 0
  • Amazon dd4tcvggg
    If you interviewed for 7 and got an offer for 6 it's because they decided to move forward with your offer at a lower level only. In other words, we already think you're not a 7, so no, you can't negotiate. You might actually put your offer at risk.
    May 25 0
  • Amazon / Product tatochip
    Most Principals have a minimum of 15 years of experience from what I have seen. Most 20+.
    May 25 0
  • Twitch / Product WeOQ66
    Agree with everyone here. This isn’t going to be possible without re-interviewing. L6 to L7 is also an incredibly hard promotion; getting it after two years seems fast.
    May 25 0

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