An alternative to HR1044 and S386

Pandora txjJ84
Sep 22 55 Comments

This is meant to open a proper discussion. Please do not target any group with insults or hate. I have Indian friends, and I care about them as well.

Let's start with the things I believe we agree on:
- American jobs should protect American citizens first and foremost
- H-1B body shops whose sole product is hiring foreign applicants for contract work, have taken advantage of a loophole using mass third-party contracting, which has caused a huge overflow in H1B applications causing for the need for a lottery in the H-1B process and a huge backlog in India employment based categories.
- Legitimate applicants regardless of country-origin should not be punished for these abuse by H-1B body shops.

To handle the huge backlog for green card applicants from certain countries, mostly from India, Senator Mike Lee and Kamala Harris introduced a bill that would remove the 7% cap per country and change the employment based allocation to be a first-come first-serve. This would benefit mostly Indian countries at the expense of other countries. At this point, because there is no per-country cap in H-1B applications, Indians receive over 75% of H-1Bs.

The problem with S386:
- It is an easy solution that does not solve the problem: It is a quick bandage that does not go at the root of the problem, which is H-1B body shops taking advantage of loopholes in the system.
- It just makes the rest of the world carry this burden.
- The backlog will never end as H-1B body shops will be incentives to continue abusing the system.
- The solution is an American-first solution. You need to have a legitimate American company who wants you

The problem with ignoring S386:
- Everyone deserves a fair chance. Legitimate candidates from India should have a chance at a decent timeline to a green card.

The solution:
- Starting from 2020 fiscal year, H1B body shops (defined as any company whose sole product is hiring foreign applicants for contract work) and third-party consultants will no longer be able to submit H-1B applicants or employment-based green card applications. These body shops are not American-first and their very essence is a conflict of interest to hiring American workers. By implementing this rule, this will get rid of the need for an H-1B lottery and will eventually get rid of the backlog in the employment based green card category for India.
- For employment based categories with a huge backlog (i.e. India EB2/EB3), a special merit-based system will be carved out to allow legitimate candidates to come to the front of the line of the backlog for their category.

The point based system will be gotten mainly from the I-140 and a combination of skills. Negative points will be given to certain attributes:

Third-Party Consultancy/H-1B body shops: -5 points (Highly skilled folks with an I-140 from a third-party consultancy can keep their priority date and file the I-140 with a company that does not specialize in third party work)
Masters: +2
PHD: +4
Bachelors: +1
From a high-tier company with high impact on our economy or health: +5 (These companies could include well known tech companies (FAANGs and more), health companies, universities and more)

Here's a sample of how this would look, attached.

I would love to hear your thoughts. This is the discussion I feel we should have had in the first place.

An alternative to HR1044 and S386
A point system of 0-15+

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TOP 55 Comments
  • New duzJ30
    I would exclude the statement about body shops.

    Although there is a big issue with body shops we should have country cap even if there was no any body shops and all applicants are fair. We should not give more than 7-10% of employe based GC to one country.
    Sep 22 7
    • New duzJ30
      Country caps are necessary to keep diversity. It’s not against any specific country, but to don’t let any country get more than 7-10% of green cards.
      Sep 22
    • Tableau HipyPhokur
      Why are we focusing on diversity here? Why not in the place where it actually matters, like the Congress or Presidency?

      None of these immigrants are "underprivileged" to begin with. Based on what premise have we decided diversity is superior to employability or TC? After all, the more TC these folks make, the more taxes they pay and the better off the country is. Why is that inferior?
      Sep 22
    • Citadel Securities wagecuck3
      India is a diverse country. Sure, most Indian people are brown and know how to speak English and Hindi, but beyond that, there's lots of diversity. There are many local languages and subcultures, various religions, and so on. If all countries in Africa joined together into the United States of Africa with a population of 1.2 billion, would it be sensible to limit that country to 7% as well?
      Sep 22
    • Pandora txjJ84
      OP
      Country caps is to prevent abuse and monopolizing green cards. It is not discrimination is it applies equally to all nationalities. It is also important to note that when all green cards are not used up, overflow goes to countries with backlogs. It is estimated Indians get 20% of employment based green cards. The problem is not the country cap. It applies in all green card applications (family based, as well). If there were no abuse in the backlog, the overflow from left over green cards would most likely have covered any additional backlogs from countries with lots of applicants.

      But either way, that's beyond the scope of the alternative law proposed. If we wish to remove country caps, that's something to revisit as a country to understand if this is outdated or not. However, removing country caps does not solve the backlog problem. It's only a temporary pain killer -- and for only a few countries.
      Sep 22
    • Tableau HipyPhokur
      Why do we care about monopolizing green cards? There should be a purpose for this diversity, otherwise it's just legal racism.

      If there is abuse, let's talk about how to prevent it. Let's not create abuse ourselves.

      Should we be restricting who buys houses, based on ethnicities and nationalities, to create more diverse neighborhoods? Why are we not advocating for diversity everywhere?
      Sep 22
  • Oracle / Other I@m
    And you think senators or politicians care about legal immigration?

    It's all about vote bank politics anywhere in the world

    This major reform will never happen
    Sep 22 2
    • Apple magikarp16
      Republicans for sure don’t give a fuck. Even if they did, they’d struggle to do anything meaningful due to their lack of general competence. Democrats are slightly better and competent.
      Sep 22
    • Oracle / Other I@m
      So what did Obama do? USCIS was worse during his time allowing all fake profiles in H1B
      Sep 22
  • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
    “Let's start with the things I believe we agree on:
    - American jobs should protect American citizens first and foremost”

    I’m going to stop you right there.

    Ever seen an immigrant refuse an H-1B job because they’re concerned about their American counterpart?
    Sep 22 3
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      That’s exactly the point.
      Sep 22
    • Microsoft Beepbopyip
      Ever seen Apple reject Chinese parts? Business is simple, make more profit, keep growing.. Businesses will do anything legally possible to do that.
      Sep 22
    • PayPal yeff
      But then why would companies care about passing this bill? They clearly benefit more from immigrants not changing jobs, accepting lower salaries, not starting companies, etc.

      If this were to pass, most people would be free to leave whenever they want. Isn’t it better for them to oppose this bill? (Business-wise)
      Sep 22
  • Microsoft moreTCplss
    Sep 22 1
    • American Express vista133
      That looks awful
      Sep 22
  • Adobe HaroldWren
    Wow the Oracle dude is really angry. OP, we don’t agree on the exact details but this is a great post aimed at building consensus and we need more content like this.

    The one area I think must be addressed is education. H1B is essentially a failure of US education system to produce the talent required by the economic engine. This is natural, but when you have it in the same industry year-after-year it must be addressed. In tech in general there are a lot of good H1B recipients but in my career I’ve never seen one who made me say: “yep, no amount of education will make this, this is pure natural skill”. Our skills can be learned.
    Sep 22 9
    • Oracle / Eng I@m
      Maybe in 10 yrs and so on
      Sep 22
    • Adobe HaroldWren
      I seriously doubt that 10 is on the table at this point. Note however, with Affordable Carr Act I brought in some “real world” information, you are still swimming in generalities. What would you do to fix the problems? Just sit and say woe is me?
      Sep 22
    • Oracle / Eng I@m
      ^^ so what actions have you taken instead of all these big words?

      All am saying is understand how politics work, how lobbying works. Words without actions doesn't account to anything.

      That said am out of this post. My energy and time is better spent somewhere else.
      Sep 22
    • Adobe HaroldWren
      Once again with zero of that sweet sweet grounds in reality he answers a question with a question.

      My mind is not yet made up on immigration. I believe it is an important issue but there are many factors here. On H1B in particular my belief, as previously stated is the lack of education in tech. To that end I’m on a board of a non profit dedicated to addressing this issue in my area and have been for a while. We helped many mid career professionals who want to get into tech do just that.
      Sep 22
    • Adobe HaroldWren
      Also apparently I chase troll away from real conversations which is a big win, I’ll take it :) you’re welcome, Blind let’s get back to OPs discussion
      Sep 22
  • LinkedIn data@scale
    Solid post! I am an Indian and I totally love this. True, the main culprits are the H1B body shops, many of those people have shoddy degrees from tier 3 universities in India and the kind of work they do doesn’t require them to stay here. This is impacting Indians with PhD Masters degrees from tier1 universities in US who deserve to get a chance to contribute to the American economy (and have the potential to make a positive impact)
    Sep 22 3
    • Oracle / Other I@m
      Lol, new to USA? No one will give damn about this implementation. This kind of reform will never happen
      Sep 22
    • Pandora txjJ84
      OP
      Why do you think it has no chance of passing? Even President Trump proposed a merit based green card policy.

      This is not even a major reform. It does not increase the number of green cards per year or change any previous policy, such as country caps. It simply allows a new way of allocating green cards for backlogged countries, using a merit based system. This could easily make it past the House, the Senate and the President.
      Sep 22
    • Oracle / Other I@m
      President Trump proposed this 2 years back. What's the progress so far? Live in your dreams but reality is very diff
      Democrats will never agree for tht bill.
      Sep 22
  • Microsoft giggitycow
    To maintain diversity - remove country of birth cap and make cap on religion. If there is backlog of specific religion go to another level - gender, sexual preference etc.
    Sep 22 0
  • Oracle / Other I@m
    We need 7% cap even for company hires. Company hiring more then 7% is not diverse and promotes racism. I don't care about what profits company make.

    Please call your senators! We need to stop this atrocity!!
    Sep 22 11
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      “Also, what is the diversity numbers in Google today?”

      https://diversity.google/annual-report/

      You got one for Oracle?

      “Just saying businesses value diversity is marketing gimmick. I believe in meritocracy and nothing else. You need to be inclusive but at the end skills is what matters”

      It doesn’t matter what you believe. I also believe in meritocracy but today, diversity will be something to be accounted for as well.

      Diversity and meritocracy will be a careful balance that more and more companies will have to do.

      Non-diverse companies will be quickly skewered in social media and public perception will quickly turn sour towards those companies.
      Sep 22
    • Oracle / Eng I@m
      That is a long road ahead. But at the end it's the teams that decide what % of diversity hires happen.

      So if you hire because of diversity and they don't perform well you will continue doing that?

      Am not saying it's not happening but it's not at scale. Companies do it precisely for the reasons you mentioned - social media and public perception.

      That said we need to promote diversity at earlier levels. More women or underrepresented races in STEM
      Empower them and make sure they have all needed skills to perform well. No one likes to be called as a diversity hire - today it means their skills are not valued and they were hired only because they were minority.
      Sep 22
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      You asked me for my company’s diversity report. I provided it. Still waiting for yours.

      It is a long road ahead but like I said before, it takes time. Something that takes awhile doesn’t mean it is not worth doing.

      All your other points I’ve already addressed. Let’s not start circular arguments.

      Still waiting for your company’s diversity report.
      Sep 22
    • Oracle / Eng I@m
      I never claimed or vouched for diversity hires. So how does it matter abt my employer diversity numbers? You are the one who said diversity hires happen at Google and hence I asked for numbers to see at what scale.

      Personally i never hired anyone because of diversity.
      Sep 22
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      So why ask for my company’s diversity report if you’re not trying to make a point earlier?

      You seem to refuse to believe that diversity hiring is not happening at scale. But it has already started. I’ve already provided you with facts and data.

      And it’s not just my company:

      https://www.airbnb.com/diversity/belonging

      https://www.aboutamazon.com/working-at-amazon/diversity-and-inclusion/our-workforce-data

      https://www.apple.com/diversity/

      https://diversity.fb.com/read-report/

      https://take.lyft.com/diversity/

      But you can hide your head in the sand and ignore it all you want.

      “Personally i never hired anyone because of diversity.

      Ok, so what? What does that prove?
      Sep 22
  • Western Union 30ssss
    How about implementing 7% country wise quota for H1B?
    Sep 22 3
    • Tableau HipyPhokur
      How about implementing 7% country wise quota for new children being born as well? And if mixed race, you should be in both lines. Best way to maintain diversity.
      Sep 22
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      “And if mixed race, you should be in both lines.”

      Ridiculous, mixed race should be its own quota.
      Sep 22
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      If you support 2% country quota then Indians will support you.
      Sep 22
  • Oracle Embarcoder
    I love this!!!

    I always feel like genuinely skilled Indians are most impacted by this backlog. I know some really smart Indians who are discouraged from staying here because this is backlog at the same time I know lots of undeserving indians who used their country of birth priv , latched on to a ICC and now claiming to be "high skilled"
    Sep 22 1
    • Oracle / Other I@m
      Ofc you would and you are delusional.
      Learn how bills are passed in US. This doesn't have any chance
      Sep 22
  • Taylor Farms azerty_
    This post makes sense 🧠
    Sep 22 0
  • American Express vista133
    Sep 22 0
  • Groupon / Eng sleepy
    This won’t pass.

    The body shop rules will stop nursing body shops too. They will buy a few senators and voila. I don’t think it would even get past filibusters.

    If there’s something can get passed that is the merit based system. Dems want some pathway for undocumented population included in it and Republicans are opposed to it. That’s the last situation during Obama era.

    Now Republicans are against family immigration too. So they are diverging.
    Sep 22 0
  • Amazon BillyF
    Your solution assumes one can easily tell bodyshops from good companies, which is actually practically impossible.

    I would rather score TC relative to mean/sigma for given job title, plus education and English skills. The whole point of bodyshops is to pay less, that is their weakness where they must be attacked.
    Sep 22 0

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