Apple is the worst place for mothers

Apple Nxgos
Jun 29, 2018 382 Comments

I had always been a top performer and got good ratings every year until...

I went on maternity leave last year and it has impacted my career big time. I am not able to recover from it even after a year.

There was a reorg and I was the only person who knew about this project. I trained the entire team who were moved from different teams including the manager and brought them up to speed.

Till the last day of my maternity leave I was working in office till 8 pm for 6 months. There were 2 critical projects I was working on and I really didn’t want them to fail. Both the projects were successful.

While I was out, there was another reorg and my reporting manager was changed

I returned back after 3 months in June and got my annual review in September under this new manager. To my horror I got the worst review of all times, with barely any hike and bonus.

I was depressed for several months and even cursed myself for putting job ahead of my health and my personal life. I still get tears in my eyes when I think of it.

I didn’t go to the HR or discuss it with anyone. I have accepted it for being my fault because I worked for 3 months less than others and should not have excepted for higher bonus. I am from India and have seen this kind of discrimination happen all the time to the extent that it feels normal.

I just need advice on how to get over it and build back my career. I am no longer as motivated as before and don’t believe things will ever change.

On one hand Apple supports programs to bring back women who took break to take care of their kids on another hand they these kind of discriminations have become a common thing.

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TOP 382 Comments
  • Apple Nxgos
    OP
    It was average
    Jun 29, 2018 19
    • Uber Mhftjh
      Employees should ask for a decimeter performance check point from managers before going on maternity leave as protection against this bs
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Microsoft TOVk00
      @tier 1 Microsoft manager written instructions on HR web is to evaluate people by their performance excluding the leave. Managers at Microsoft are not to apply any performance rating for the period an employee is on leave (pregnancy, birth or otherwise). Now that's the rule, it doesn't mean that the average manager know it or that it is followed.
      That said because it is the rule, if you can get a manager to commit to the record that they come up to the rating by using instead the method you describe, then you have a clear case to bring to HR for improper evaluation and request a correction to your performance record as well as back pay.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • ZocDoc gxuU75
      guessing the new manager talked to your peers and didn't get stellar feedback.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Apple fezzik
      What T0Vk00 said about MSFT is also the case about Apple manager guidance. HR knows this too even if your manager does not. Push back.
      Jul 5, 2018
    • Gap Pbop20
      Wow people really don’t seem to get how Leave — of any kind — works. It’s a definitely not meant to impact your performance rating — you were literally NOT working during that time, by approval. I would escalate for sure.
      Dec 19, 2018
  • Flagged by the community.

    • LinkedIn / Ops Spin_Move
      You think pushing a small human out of your vag and then persistently getting 1 hour of sleep at a time while your nips are chewed raw is a vacation? What types of vacations do you take?
      Dec 20, 2018
    • Turo haiaksjdj
      Holy shit you are an insufferable asshat.
      Dec 21, 2018
    • Expedia GKO2
      Dude you're a POS
      Dec 21, 2018
    • Amazon lolwhat
      ybeiuds - haters gonna hate bro, you keep up the good work of sticking to the truth.
      Dec 21, 2018
    • Intel Pakshab
      Someone’s mother didn’t love them as a baby.
      Dec 21, 2018
  • Google / Eng
    🐉⚡

    Google Eng

    PRE
    Google
    BIO
    Shitposter
    🐉⚡more
    I mean, yeah, if you do less, you deserve less. Having a kid is a choice. Working less is a choice.
    Jul 1, 2018 11
    • Microsoft TOVk00
      Seriously engineer from Google? Are you trolling or seriously saying that garbage?
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Google / Eng
      bluelob

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Apple, McKinsey
      bluelobmore
      This is not the policy nor the culture at Google. This is actually the opposite
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Google xz43h
      It's worse for guys. There is very little breathing room given to men who take their time off. The expectations are way higher, and you get way less sympathy.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Google / Eng ;O 𓂺
      Worse for guys? Are you an imbecile? Wtf. Google culture is supportive of both parents taking time off.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Google / Eng
      ywfB31

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Motorola
      BIO
      🤖
      ywfB31more
      Generally at Google you are evaluated for the time you actually spent at work so what is being said there is just nonsense.

      This means that if you're gone for a quarter you don't get evaluated, and if you had good month before going for 2 months out, only that single month counts in.

      People taking long leave don't immediately land on PIP so by no means OPs opinion represents what things are.
      Jul 2, 2018
  • 84.51˚ lasso
    Not to sound like an asshole but why are people still having kids and trying to go green at the same time? We have enough people on this planet. Stop having KIDS.
    Jul 1, 2018 15
    • Microsoft TOVk00
      You made my day orange!
      Jul 2, 2018
    • HotSchedules 5429
      Also, lasso, without babies, the birth rate will drop, leading to fewer customers and less revenue for you. I could go on, but hopefully that statement alone gives you a different perspective on why kids are valuable to you even if you don't want to have any.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      Also, not to mention there will be no one funding social security or paying taxes when you retire. People should be given a raise after having kids.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Microsoft TOVk00
      Err... Wrong math. The commonly accepted replacement rate for fertility is 2.1. At 1.8 the population shrinks unless you also have a (significant) immigration rate to compensate.
      Jul 9, 2018
  • Cruise Automation merc
    Just wanted to say I love everyone on this thread! Usually on anonymous threads like blind you see a lot of trolls trying to break each other down. But in this thread I see a lot of women trying to help women and giving honest humble thoughts. Love it!
    Jun 30, 2018 5
    • PayPal zNMy88
      most other threads are full of racist trolls. If it weren’t for women in Tech topic at blind, I would have left. Well said merc
      Jun 30, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng n0v
      There's a bunch of supportive men on this thread too. Watch your biases
      Jun 30, 2018
    • Apple magikarp16
      Was thinking the same @merc
      Jul 1, 2018
    • PayPal zNMy88
      Nov , even though technically the statement is right as the topic is still “women in tech” but both men and women are being supportive of each other / at least are not trolling incessantly like other threads.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      I don't think merc said anything bad about men. Just that this thread is supportive, and others are often not.
      Jul 1, 2018
  • Uber uberered
    No offense, but this is just what everyone experiences with bad managers. Lots of people get bad managers and unfair performance reviews. I've been a top performer under one manager and pipped under another manager, the trick is to not bother you because it's just random luck. Don't worry and change managers, you will be fine! Don't take it personal! I've been on 2 pips from FANG!
    Jun 29, 2018 8
    • Uber uberered
      Why would me resume look.worse? I don't put pip on my resume lol. Also I've been at my first company for 8 years and next company for 3
      Jun 29, 2018
    • Google / Eng
      🐉⚡

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Google
      BIO
      Shitposter
      🐉⚡more
      Who cares about resumes? Just lie.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Capital One / Eng Luigi1111
      Thank you for sharing! Yeah, same thing happened to me. Top performer and huge retention bonuses under one manager and pipped under another manager! Same work ethic and positive attitude. It is all so corrupt haha. I thought it was random and corrupt but then I thought I was just being delusional lol.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Broadcom Ltd. uKwp26
      Wow.. someone put you on pip after 8 years of contributions. Such a weird org/culture. SV gotta change !!
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Uber uberered
      Came back after maternity. New manager didn't like me, and she was going through a tough time, had just been on a pip too lol. You lose any momentum when you.go on leave and it's hard when you come back to a different manager. Especially with forced curves.
      Jul 2, 2018
  • Walmart / Product 🦈nado
    I would inquire about it.... this doesn’t sound right
    Jun 29, 2018 4
    • I think you should go to HR & not suffer in silence. I certainly agree that this doesn't sound right.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Google lostinspac
      That's terrible advice. What do you think HR will do? Take her side and invite a lawsuit?
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Would you like the woman to feel so horribly stressed & worried sick because she feels pressured to speak up for herself, therefore adversely affecting her ability to work or have her stand up for herself and do her best work. What's your sage advice? I'll wait...
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Microsoft TOVk00
      On one hand don't suffer in silence. On the other, be fully aware walking into any HR conversation that whatever fairy tale they tell you their job is to protect the company from a lawsuit. It is not to make employees happy. It is not to be fair. Also, realize that many HR employee are low skill and poorly paid, sometimes even vendor'ed out hence don't really have a stake in the gig. So it is not easy to work with them for a complaint. You need to be ready for an uphill battle where their inaction will be the enemy. You will need to take charge. Educate yourself, ideally with a friend lawyer or outright hire one. It's a lot of work.
      Personally I would not want to take it up and instead vote with my feet (I.e. Go interview elsewhere and leave).
      Jul 2, 2018
  • Flagged by the community.

  • Facebook / Eng xymhxxqw
    Same here. Worked so hard during my pregnancy and ended up a miscarriage. Only got an average rating after time off for surgery. Feel regretful on working hard. Blamed myself on putting too much effort on work to cause a miscarriage. Next time will put my baby and family first!
    Jul 1, 2018 8
    • Tableau fBCz83
      Our time is so limited. Starting a family is a major time commitment. Their youth goes by so quickly. I know a lot of tech parents with kids headed to or in college. It is really common for them to wish they had more time with the kids when they were young. None have said to me they wished they had spent more time on project A or B. There are family friendly companies out there where people work and are rewarded as a team and take the time to support each other.
      Jul 5, 2018
    • Amazon Chsiwifbfb
      feel so sorry for your loss. Hopefully you have recovered from that
      Dec 19, 2018
    • Google / Eng
      rQsc13

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Qualcomm
      rQsc13more
      @Tableau person - which are these companies?
      Dec 19, 2018
    • Salesforce t00r
      I am really sorry you have to endure this situation.
      Dec 19, 2018
    • Microsoft Fordfiasco
      Deeply saddened
      Dec 19, 2018
  • Cruise Automation merc
    I highly suggest you leave apple. I used to work there. My manager asked me if I wanted to grow and I obviously said yes. He said he just wanted to make sure before going to bat for me. And then he warned me “FYI I see things behind the scenes and I just want you to know this is no place for a woman, especially a woman that wants to have a family or other life outside of work.” Also HR is worthless at Apple. Don’t bother going to them. They just document but don’t do anything and then your management finds out about it and starts acting weird around you and not giving you opportunities where they’ll have to deal with you. I could go on and on but my advice ultimately is just to get out. This is coming from someone who was consistently too performer in their dept. I left and it’s a totally different world working for more well rounded progressive companies in sf. All companies have their problems but I think a big root cause at Apple is that there are so many fanatics that they will put up with being treated badly so if it bothers you you’re the only one to stand up for change. Everyone at Apple thinks it’s Apple or die and there’s nothing else they could ever be doing. When in all reality they could go anywhere and get paid more too. It’s very weird and unhealthy.
    Jun 30, 2018 4
    • Cruise Automation merc
      Top* performer lol
      Jun 30, 2018
    • Amazon OuIE04
      Wow 😮
      Jun 30, 2018
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      Well, if women keep quitting after maternity leave, it will feed into their cycle of reviewing women poorly during maternity leave.

      Also, if women silently quit, how will they understand what the problem is? Women who have already left, should email Apple CEO and make him aware what's happening. Women who are planning to quit, should send that email after they quit. If the CEO cares, he can look into the review records and find the patterns. At least things might improve for the other women still in there.

      Don't let your sacrifice (quitting job) be in vain. Let something good come out of it.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Google / Eng
      ywfB31

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Motorola
      ywfB31more
      Personal observation after seeing a few curious events from few angles in two different corps

      HR are essentially shepherds dogs and, well, employees are sadly only sheep. HR are not there for you.
      Jul 1, 2018
  • Lending Club GqHn26
    someone told me, prioritize between career and children.
    Jul 1, 2018 7
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      Sad choices. My brother and another cousin brother, chose their careers with stay at home wives. Both now have kids in college who have zero bonding with them, and only share with their moms. Dads in both cases are simply there to pay bills and write checks. Sadly, even if the kids want expensive iPhone and such, they ask their mom to ask the dad, and do not approach dad directly.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Lending Club GqHn26
      what is more sad is, that women who do get a choice to do equal justice to career and family, mostly end up using motherhood as an excuse to discount productivity at work.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      Lending club, you need to understand more. The case OP posted is a classic example. Women get discouraged with bad reviews and poor support after maternity leave. The problem is not that they had kids, the problem is that they were discriminated against and lost their mojo for work after having kids.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Pure Storage orangeg769
      Lending Club, you’ve got bad intel or are basing this opinion of productivity off one-off experiences.
      Over the past couple years research has shown that women returning to corporate work after maternity leave overwhelmingly out-work their peers because they feel pressure to prove themselves. They do this by working off-hours and weekends. Often they are judged for having hard stops earlier in the day (4-5pm) in order to pickup kids / take care of their family, but go back to work once the kids go down and work until late at night. Talk to any working mom - this is norm.
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Microsoft TOVk00
      The impact is certainly more severe for women. Now men also get posed the same question. Just earlier this week I got asked to reflect about my priorities. I respect the manager for at least been open about it even if it is horrible to have to admit that's what our industry does.
      Jul 2, 2018
  • Apple EPOb47
    I’ll give you my advise, From one mom (2xkids) to another: 1) Apple or any big company these days can take up as much time as YOU give it. 2) you’re never done at Apple, you just get more work. 3) there is ALWAYS more work to do at Apple 4) figure out what you’re cat-1s are at work and focus on them, expand to cat-2 if you have time, don’t care about cat-3. (If you don’t know this terminology, ask around and take the what makes Apple, Apple course at Apple University) 5) strictly define your work hours and stick to it, kids are little only for a short time, it’ll be done before you know it. I agree, It’s easier said than done— it’s tough to attend 5pm meetings and tougher to set them up. Trust that Apple has a good culture, which it does— it’s about the language you use to manage your hours and yourself. Learn the language to say no, keep it short and sweet, and leave promptly at the time you want to leave, don’t drag yourself into 7pm, it’s not worth it.
    Jul 2, 2018 2
    • Apple EPOb47
      + if you feel unjust about previous years’ compensation, you should have an open conversation about it. Don’t dodge it, prepare the language that makes you comfortable to have that conversation and stick to your script. Talk about the value you created and why you think the raise did not meet your expectations. You’ll be surprised at the feedback when you can communicate it well. Don’t expect people know— they simply don’t — maybe they didn’t care to think about it, or they are preoccupied with too much on their mind. PM if you need help to construct your script.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Apple EPOb47
      Don’t care about trolling in Blind, this space isn’t a balanced demographic for working mothers
      Jul 2, 2018
  • Amazon kTQL31
    This type of thing doesn't just happen to mothers but to fathers as well.

    I went off on paternity leave after having my first child and was rated poorly that year. My manager kept insisting the whole time he was discussing the review with me that it had nothing to do with my leave. Yeah right, ass wipe! This was a while ago. In hindsight, I should have made a bigger deal about it.

    I think you should talk to a lawyer first, then escalate it to HR, your skip and his skip. Don't take it laying down! Don't accept this as normal. Otherwise, they'll never learn!
    Jul 1, 2018 0
  • Microsoft Zuzi
    The point of establishing credibility before going on maternity leave is to cash it in after you return, when you need it most. That cannot be done with a new manager who doesn’t know you, the only thing you bring back is the context of you having been away for a few months and the subconscious bias of you being busier than others at home. So solution is to either change teams to work with your old manager (to cash in on credibility you’d established with them) or to a new team who won’t at least have the subconscious bias of you being away for a few months. Alternatively, you can stay and establish credibility in the new team from scratch if you are happy with everything else and it’s your comfort zone. However, feeling sorry for yourself only hurts you more. As much as it sucks, try to look forward.
    Jul 1, 2018 1
  • Intuit Toodooz
    Apple does not support work life balance. If you want that you’ll have to go somewhere else. Going to hr is not going to help. You should have been reviewed on the months you were working for the year and not be penalized for your protected leave.
    Jun 29, 2018 0
  • Amazon
    Huhahu

    Amazon

    PRE
    Amazon, Microsoft
    Huhahumore
    Never give more importance to job. Family and health are more important. Employees are commodities for companies.
    Jul 1, 2018 0
  • Apple / Eng techie12
    Don’t listen to people who say HR won’t do anything because they are there to protect the company. The bay area’s tech culture is screwed because of these people’s attitude. It is true that’s HR is here to protect the company, but that doesn’t mean they will protect your manager at any cost. They are also afraid of you filing a lawsuit because you were discriminated against after maternity leave. This is pretty serious and every company knows that. So if you have proof, documents, witnesses, etc, file a report to HR and take a step forward in improving the culture for yourself and others!
    Jul 1, 2018 1
    • LinkedIn / Product gassoup
      I have very negative experiences with LinkedIn's hr. They are in the business of protecting managers and the company, not the employees. It is actively dangerous to talk to them. Whenever you talk to hr there's a serious risk of retaliation.
      Dec 19, 2018
  • Workday / Eng
    blindster

    Workday Eng

    PRE
    Yahoo
    blindstermore
    The best way to get over it is to look at your beautiful newborn baby, spend your quality time and give your best to him/her. Don’t give a F about Apple, find another career with better wlb.
    Jun 29, 2018 0
  • Apple
    FudgeHead

    Apple

    PRE
    Amazon, A9, Google, RingCentral, Yahoo
    FudgeHeadmore
    Make sure you are not suffering from postpartum depression. Talk to your doctor if you cannot shake this incident and focus on work or family.

    Take care.
    Jul 1, 2018 5
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      Bad review == PPD?
      <smh>
      Jul 1, 2018
    • Apple / Eng TaxPayer
      No, but feeling down, loss of confidence could be.

      PPD sadly goes largely undiagnosed. The bad review and clueless boss can be an aggravating factor.

      There is no shame in acknowledging and getting treatment for PPD. My Wife did it. I’m proud of her, and learned a lot myself in the process.

      Too many stigmas associated with depressions cause people not too look for treatment.

      You are NOT crazy. But look for help, like you would if you had any other kind of medical condition.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      Please stick to the topic at hand. You are belittling OP's concerns. She may or may not have PPD, that doesn't change anything about the bad review.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Apple / Eng TaxPayer
      The OP said “I was depressed for several months”, and is looking for advice how to get over it.

      This is my advice: talk to a professional. Even if the depression is unrelated to the birth. Get diagnosed, get treated.

      Just changing job is unlikely to get to the root of a depression if there is one.

      No belittling at all from me here. You are the one doing the belittling if you think depression is not an issue worth talking about.
      Jul 2, 2018
    • Genentech GeneCoder
      You missed the 6 paragraphs she wrote before that comment.
      Jul 2, 2018
  • Amazon / Eng
    whoopsey

    Amazon Eng

    PRE
    Amazon
    whoopseymore
    You can take the matter to HR if u feel maternity leave made them to give you a bad rating... every company is sensitive about pregnancy and maternity and there are strict laws around it... most of the companies also let you change teams once you are back from maternity leave
    Jun 29, 2018 3
    • Apple Nxgos
      OP
      I have heard this from several HR is there to protect the company not the employees
      Jun 29, 2018
    • F5 Networks / Sales
      FauxMe

      F5 Networks Sales

      PRE
      500 Startups
      BIO
      ...
      FauxMemore
      ^ This is 100% true. HR is to protect the company. So, the burden is on you to prove that your maternity leave caused the new manager to give you a poor review. HR will back management unless there is evidence that says otherwise.
      Jun 29, 2018
    • Google blok
      This. Tell them you will go public with the story. Make them quiver a bit and then come to Google. Fuck Apple.
      Jun 30, 2018