Never figured out what PMs actually do other than hijack meetings and get on people's nerves. They keep asking me to explain my work which is a complete waste of time since I have to communicate to tech managers anyways. I feel like the org will run smoother if they all got fired (and give us a TC bump). Can someone explain what PMs actually do? And is their TC high or low (I hope it's really low since they don't do anyt6hjng)
- LinkedIn plowingmoreWhat about scrum masters? We got a scrum master recently in addition to the PM.
- A good PM doesn't have to ask how to unblock you. They see problems from a mile away and are a few steps ahead of you. You won't even know they unblocked you (and hence you'll call them worthless). All the engineering you're doing and all your JIRA stories come as a result of the customer research and product design that your PM did before your engineering manager even made the JIRAs you speak of. A PM makes sure the team builds the right product that customers want at the right quality in the right place at the right price. I've been an engineer before (a good one) and I know how it feels to think you're master of the universe with a high IQ, but that doesn't mean you'll build the right product. You have to intimately know your customers, business models, and competitors to set the right strategy and build the right product.
Look at the Echo for example. I've seen some of the hackery under the hood (and as an engineer by training, I do know what good and bad engineering looks like). It is not a marvel of engineering. But it has sold incredibly well. It has done so because PMs saw a market opportunity, designed a product vision, and steered it in a direction that customers want.
- VMware nitO16@ivanka depends on how the role is defined in your company/org. I've with with very valuable ones and very useless ones. The valuable ones made a difference, the others made us to want to pull our hair out. Wish pms are not telling you how to build your platform (the tech implementation is your job) - they will tell you what features customersn want and how to improve your product to stay competitive in your market. Hopefully your pm has domain expertise - without it it's hard to understand and contribute to any product.
- Airbnb closurefoMine is fantastic. Finds impactful projects and helps guide them along with thorough analysis, coordinating between design, legal, engineering, etc
- Project managers can all get fucked. Most worthless job ever. I don’t need 50 layers of indirection between product design and my code. Designers are much more valuable and in most cases can do the work of a PM far more effectively.
- It seems like you have bad PMs, sorry to hear it.
Think about it this way: Do you know exactly who your primary customers are and why? Do you understand the qualitative motivations and needs of your customers? Do you quantify your team's efforts through metrics that align your customers' needs and your business' needs? Do you set the right goals for these metrics after top down and bottom up analysis to keep an entire team focused and accountable? Do you communicate these qualitative and quantitative factors up and down, left and right around the company so that the rest of the team doesn't get questioned by others you need to work with? Do you effectively convince executives why your team's mission and success matter to the company, meaning headcount shouldn't be flat or negative? Do you constantly work with uncertain input output situations (i.e. dealing with humans across finance, marketing, partnerships, sales, legal, privacy, ops) to figure out human problems at scale, often for the first time (not on Google/Stackoverflow)? Do you figure out what your product's compelling future looks like not just in 2019 but also in 2024? Do you keep updated on global technology and behavior trends to make sure the ship stays on the right course based on the latest info? Do you work backward from these things to assess what the roadmap looks like and how it should be sequenced and communicated? Do you do a ton of this behind the scenes work and effectively communicate the necessary parts for the team to get clarity in their own roles? Do you run to the fire and take responsibility while doling out recognition to the team?
If you do all of this, you're either an awesome PM or an exec running a company.
- Uber moyrwadvjunior eng and their rants about PM. yawn.
learn the diff between product and project manager first. sr PMs don’t have time to check whether some fuckin new grad is blocked or not. they always are.
and yeah, TC. top 10 CS and top 10 MBA is quite common for PMs. you think they’re getting paid like shit? wanna compare your MS comp? fuckin hell
- Get the fuck outta here.
All the PM’s I know at Amazon, Google, FB, Uber, Hulu and Airbnb drive their products long term vision, roadmapping, balance prioritization between leadership/tech/biz, babysit the day to day developer bullshit (show up late, I want a free t shirt, mom where’s the meatloaf), work constantly with UX/Research, deal with BI’s inability to ever deliver anything, stroke their managers egos, beg for resourcing, deal with nonstop cross-team dependencies, sell your product vision, prove your product vision, stand ups stand ups stand ups, write user stories, requirements, listen to devs complain about user stories and requirements, deliver, sit at a retro about that deliverable and listen to devs cry some more.
Anyone who says PM’s don’t do shit can get fucked.
- It's simple --
PM is responsible for "what"
Eng is responsible for "how"
PMs with the attitude that their primary job is to "unblock" are failing.
- Yes, this is a generalization. The "what" influences the "how" and reverse is true. That's why, in my opinion, PMs MUST have decent technical depth and adjust plans based both on users and on eng.
Unblocking is great, but my point is that it should not be viewed as primary. Primary is making sure we are building the right thing with the right sequencing.
- You know, design is also a key pillar to product development. I’d argue product designers have much more ownership and influence over both the “what” and the “how” than eng and PMs do combined. Let’s be real, engineers just do what they’re told... most work done in this industry is routine enough that engineerings “how” is just how to make it possible in X company’s crappy tech stack.
This is why Google’s products always flop, way too much engineering influence.
Engineers don’t understand people, or how to make things intuitive and elegant. The interaction layer and what the user sees and experiences usually makes or breaks the product, even if the code is top notch, because real people don’t give a shit or even know what code is, they just know they need to use X app to do Y and it better be easy.
Sales and marketing have nothing to do with product development.
- Riot Games GLHF 🤪Are we talking about Project, Program or Product Managers?
Like any role they can be valuable or harmful depending on what they do and the context they work in.
With that said I’ve seen plenty of Project Managers (PMI type people) be counter productive spreadsheet masters with little to no understanding of how tech actually works.
Flagged by the community.
- Amazon Seatoll
- Afiniti JMXK67As a Senior Project Director who has been a PM ( Principal Product Manager and Program Manager) for AI systems development, integration and deployment, I would like to stress that a PM who is not technical enough to guide an architect or developer on design related items is just simple overhead. When I was a PM I would take tough customer issues and unblock major problems. I would also better understand a client’s technical environment and sell technical solutions. Project management and Scrum Masters need to get out of non technical roles and gain respect of technical folks to be successful.