I have always thought of myself to be more liberal than not. For example, totally support abortions, LGBTQ rights, healthcare for all, minimum wages, etc.
However, on immigration I just don’t get the dems. They seem to stand by illegal immigration which is plain stupid. Why? Why not instead come with a reasonable proposal to legally allow these folks to enter the US. Or spend more money to help this countries grow on their own? They don’t seem to care enough about reforming the legal immigration system (which is clearly broken badly) as much as they care about protecting undocumented immigrants and illegal immigration.
Any counter ideas? Wanted to get some perspective here since I strangely find myself agreeing with Trump on this.
- Amazon BfRx68OPP.S. as a legal immigrant, I also appreciate that all the efforts to reform legal immigration have come from Republicans. For example, merit based immigration.
- healthcare for all and minimum wages are definitely evil... since they are not working well in reality
- @microsoft, read my comment carefully, keyword is population
All 5 countries you mentioned, combined doesn’t have half the population of USA.
Expenditures include military, research and innovation, and goddamn infrastructure. 4 of those countries aren’t even as big as Texas. Don’t innovate as much as US and are definitely not as military superpower as US.
- Here you go: China!
- Veritas / Other13JijaWhy is it so difficult for Democrats to understand the meaning of the word ‘illegal’ in illegal immigration.
- The Dems are wrong about immigration, but you are wrong about the Dem’s policies on immigration.
The Democratic establishment has built up the border policing and people like the Clintons have made Trump-like arguments about undocumented migrants.
In the current context they are arguing for the immigration status quo more or less. The administration, on the other hand wants to increase repression and so they call the Democrats “soft on illegal immigration”. (Much like conservatives called Democrats “soft on crime” previously - even though the Dems promoted building the largest prison system in the world, eliminated social welfare access for people with drug-use violations, and pushed 3-strike/mandatory minimum laws).
Both parties are relying on xenophobia to a) Blame social problems in the US on “others” b) justify increased domestic repression.
But the repression-approach just creates a black market and makes undocumented immigrants vulnerable to crooked employers or gangs. It’s immigration laws that are the problem, not undocumented immigrants.
- This stance depends a lot on where you get your news.
Democrats aren’t against border security. Haven’t been and won’t be. That’s a false narrative being pushed by certain news outlets.
What Democrats are against is a 2200 mile wall. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to the border other than Southern California, but there are literally hundreds of miles of inhospitable nothingness between towns. And entire mountain ranges that are damn near impassable.
What Democrats don’t support is building walls in the middle of nowhere. There are literally places where you could erect a camera to watch a mountain pass, and when you see someone approaching it send someone out there and still catch that person hours later because they’re still in the middle of nowhere.
I’m a democrat, and fuck his wall. But cameras and monitoring systems, large budget increases for both CBP personnel and ICE personnel (to track down and deport visa overstayers), totally for it. But I’m not going to support $10’s of billions of dollars to build a wall in the middle of fucking nowhere.
- Microsoft / EngutWg87Well it depends on what you use to judge right and wrong. If you believe in patriotism/national republics then of course it's right for a country to enforce its immigration laws. However, if you believe in justice in some more global level, then why is it fair that some people are entitled to a much better standard of living/protection for human rights/etc just by the coincidence of birth? Then aren't all restrictions on immigration (by any nation) unfair? So from that view it's the law that's wrong
- I feel like the Dems today are very different from the dems under Obama, Clinton or Bush. You are right that in the past, they made a lot of the same arguments that Trump is making today. They also supported border security and a wall. But now, it’s more about opposing Trump in every way possible to win over the Latino community. For example, Trumps 5 billion border wall is not an unreasonable ask. It will reduce illegal immigration by most counts. Yes, it doesn’t deal with the bigger issues since most illegal immigrants come through ports of entry, but it will have an impact and 5-6B is a small price for that. Still the dems oppose it like it is the worst thing in the world. And some of them (including Ocazio who I actually likes) have proposed abolishing ICE which is absolutely ludicrous.
- The problem being that
A) he got $1.85B in walk funding last year and still hasn’t spent about half of it
B) his own administration projects $70B to build the wall, not including the legal costs of the eminent domain rights along the border. $5B is just his bid to “open the taps” so to speak. It’s way more than $5B
- Google / Engcome2daddyAs an immigrant myself, I feel how stupid I was to pay visa fees and waiting in queue for over a year to get the legal processing done. We all should just have come and cried to get free visa !
Supporting “illegal” anything is plain simple stupid. All the efforts to make this process legal is great and justified. But supporting illegal immigration is plain simple long.
- I imagine it takes time to actually build a wall. Also, the 5B proposal is to cover only 100-150 miles. Giving him a wall today does not automatically mean he can get 70-80B tomorrow. He will have to negotiate that separately. Also, Nancy Pelosi is on record saying that a wall is immoral.
- The wall wasn’t an emergency or even a high priority for the first two years of his term, when Republicans controlled both houses AND the White House. If he really wanted it, he would have gotten it already. It only became an “emergency” after Republicans lost the house.
So two things for you to consider:
1) Trump doesn’t actually want the wall. He wants the fight for the wall. Fighting about the wall keeps him in the news cycle on his terms, and it rules up his base. It’s their rallying cry. If he “wins” and gets the wall, then he has to find something else to rile up his base about. You saw some of this in SOTU where he threw as many evangelical hot button issues out there - he’s trying to see what will stick.
2) for the same reason Republican refused to negotiate with Obama during the 2013 shutdown when he was president, Democrats are refusing to negotiate during a shutdown now. And McConnell himself laid out a very strong argument against allowing that to happen back in 2013 - if you let POTUS use a shutdown government as leverage, you’ve opened Pandora’s box and POTUS will shut it down every time he doesn’t get his way. That’s not how our system of government was designed, and it’s important for both parties to not let that become the status quo. Now, given that McConnell himself set this standard in 2016, it’s hypocritical that Republicans are whining about the same standard being applied in the opposite direction today.
- Google dyr3aqDefense of illegal immigration is purely an American thing. No other country would tolerate shit like sanctuary cities or shield illegal aliens who have committed violent crimes from immigration enforcement.
Worse yet is the tendency to (willfully?) conflate illegals, legal immigrants, and asylum seekers depending on the situation. Even the news media is getting in on the flamebait and I can even see it ITT.
- Apple 🗣ur🧠Where do you get this talking point that anyone shields illegals who commit violent crimes from immigration enforcement. That sounds like pure fantasy.
Here’s the gist of what sanctuary cities are. First, all major metro areas are sanctuary cities. Even in the red states. Second, immigration is the job of the feds. Not the state or the city municipality law enforcement. They have enough shit to deal with. They are not deputized ICE offers. Third, it’s the police who are in favor of sanctuary cities and were the biggest supporters of it, because so much crime was taking place in the known immigrant communities because criminals know illegal immigrants don’t talk to police out of fear of deportation so they won’t report crimes they know are happening. If you’re a criminal, you’re going to do you crime where you’re the dark, not in broad daylight. So cops wanted this to encourage these people to report criminal activity that has migrated into their neighborhoods without fear of deporting the reporters. Finally, no illegal that commits a state crime goes unreported to ICE. It’s up to ICE to get their shit in a pile and respond to these reports with warrants that conform to state rules. Because we have a federalist system, states are free to govern themselves, and the feds need to respond to reports with proper warrants when illegals are tagged with a crime. Because the state can’t violate their own state constitution and hold people in jail waiting for the feds to get their act together and send a warrant to detain them.
What we need is an efficient Fed that knows what it’s doing and not strong arming states and trampling over their constitutions because they’re too dysfunctional to manage working with the states.
So the US might be unique because other countries don’t have a federalist system and aren’t anywhere as big as the states.
- New incognlto5 bln is about 0.1% of US budget. It is a rounding error. There are a lot of money behind open border. It supplies labor willing to work for nothing, and layers of businesses that depends on this. while many have financial interests in keeping the status quo, I hope that the rest of citizens are willing to fix this.
- My personal take on it is that it's much more complex of an issue than anyone here is presenting. It's not black and white. Illegal immigration isn't wrong and actually a lot of our economy is based around exploiting it. A lot of small businesses that can't afford to pay higher wages employ illegals under the table. Including Trump.
Understanding someone's struggle doesn't mean we condone it. Liberals are against the labels people put on illegal immigration. They're not rapists, they're not monsters, they're not drug lords. A lot of people that do it are trying to do so to have a better life. That's the lens we view illegal immigration through.
Let's be clear here: the current talks around it are smoke and mirrors. I believe last year illegal immigration from Mexico was under 50% of our total "illegals". This means that most illegal immigration was from visa overstays. But that's not a good talking point is it? Why is visa overstay fine but illegal border crossing a sin?
The wall is largely a big waste of money and just a reminder of how racist our country is. And as far as I'm concerned: let people who want to work in and let's get the welfare queens who have abused the system for years out.
- “Why is visa overstay fine but illegal border crossing a sin?”
Because this is all about brown people, not immigrants. In their eyes white immigrants aren’t immigrants. But Puerto Rican’s (US Citizens) might be. You don’t see this administration freaking about Eastern Europeans coming here to have babies so their kids are citizens, do you? No. This is about racists hating brown people.
- Salesforce hfgnntunvDems don’t stand by illegals, they merely trying to make sure that they are treated as humans of all. Trump actually deports less people than Obama, but Trump is making sport/show out of it. Sanctuary cities were created not to protect illegals but first of all to make sure that residents don’t get harassed because their looks or the accent.
You’ve got to stop drinking Fox and friends cool-aid.
- Amazon / EngrelphyIt’s because Trump took a hard stance against illegal immigration, and it doesn’t help that he did it intentionally to stroke racist fears in his base a la southern strategy.
Because Trump used this political strategy, dems now have to counter it.
It’s the same reason conservatives pretend climate change isn’t real. Most of them know damn well it’s a real problem, but since it’s a liberal platform they oppose that platform.
It’s the bullshit we have to deal with in a 2 party system.
- Facebook xenophilemoreI love all the indigenous people on this continent. No matter if they are labeled illegal or not, the real native Americans have been migrating up and down these lands since forever and they should continue. USA fabricating some sort of war against poor people by making its citizens think there’s a threat but the real threat are the tax collectors. Let Mexicans come in and out freely I say! Build a wall around Florida!
- Apple 6’3” sweMaybe you need to stop listening to what the right is saying the left stands for and actually start understanding the issues the left is talking about. What works with immigration and what doesn’t. Why illegals come here. Why we have 11 million illegals with border security and how a wall doesn’t stop it.
Immigration can’t be solved with bumper sticker slogans.
Trump is only playing on fear and campaign promises. He wants his wall. And he doesn’t give a shit what works and doesn’t want to compromise on anything. He wants his wall and he wants it now and he promised a wall so he must do it. And he can’t stand it that he can’t do whatever he wants when he could have done this at any time he wanted in the past 2 years, but didn’t because he actually doesn’t care and his own GOP wouldn’t give it to him anyways.
- New TinyGirlmoreI agree that legal immigration is what we should strive for.
The problem for democrats isn’t accepting legal immigration but the leaders that say “we want legal immigration”.
Trump have said some very racist things and when he means legal immigration, it means making it so hard for Mexicans and Muslims to enter the country to a point where they can’t - while letting white people in easily.
He is normalizing racism and making it okay for the normal population to look down on immigrants. At first site people see “parasites” and “rapists” as Trump has called them. Even before knowing if this person is legal or illegal, the immigrants are already judged.