Busting some myths around HR 1044 with data

Walmart.com 🌲50
Jul 15 229 Comments

One of the many arguments against HR1044 is that the India GC queue is mostly filled with "low merit" applicants from Indian consultancies that pay far lower salaries and import low skilled Indian tech workers into US.

Did some digging to come up with the following 2 data snapshots about GC filings in 2019. The source of data is mentioned in the respective captions. The first one shows GC applications from India have the third highest average salary after Canada and UK.

The second snapshot is even more compelling. TCS, one of the disliked Indian consultancies (the T in the infamous WITCH acronym) has the fourth highest average salary offer, bested only by Facebook, Google, and Apple. TCS beats the likes of Microsoft, Intel, Amazon, and Oracle pretty comfortably.

What do you think of this data, Blind community, and how does this influence your argument against HR1044?

Busting some myths around HR 1044 with data
Average salary by country of citizenship: source: <a href="http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-Green-Card.aspx?T=CT" target="_blank">http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-Green-Card.aspx?T=CT</a>
Busting some myths around HR 1044 with data
Average Salary by sponsoring company: Source: <a href="http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-Green-Card-Sponsor.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-Green-Card-Sponsor.aspx</a>

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TOP 229 Comments
  • Walmart.com 🌲50
    OP
    Thanks to @Acker from Amazon for pointing me to the data source.
    Jul 15 87
    • Amazon acker
      Try again
      Jul 19
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      Tried. You still lying.
      Jul 19
    • Amazon acker
      Nope, it's there. You can do it!
      Jul 19
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      Your for loop seems buggy
      Jul 19
    • Microsoft xJHW17
      acker I hate you so much
      Aug 8
  • Amazon acker
    2019 is after Trump's America first crackdown. Try 2016 i140 petitions, the backlog of from 2009 to present, not 2019. And the claim ISN'T that no Indians have merit but that the consultants dominate the queue.

    Here's the actual data, for a typical year.
    Jul 15 26
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      @acker let's be objective - how do you know TCS doesn't have RSUs? Even if they don't, you know very well USCIS doesnt give a rats arse for RSUs, base is all that matters. Now that your previous merit metric has fallen flat on it's face, have another go at it - How do you plan to measure merit? This time try to be more thoughtful while answering. Btw, it's ok to give up at any point and concede that you have no clue about how to define or measure merit.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      You're asking, on blind, how I know TCS pays less than Amazon?

      🤪
      Jul 16
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      @speeding

      “@hooli.xyz I guess you are an American, what amazes me is that you don’t care about all Indians waiting forever , but you seem to have an issue when other countries’ people have to wait for a few years after country cap removal.

      If it’s not okay for someone to wait for a few years, how is it okay for genuine Indian applicants to wait forever ? That’s very hypocritical 😂”

      What are you talking about? All I’m interested in is cracking the TCS interviews.
      Jul 16
    • Google lmao😂
      lmao 😂
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      @acker let data decide who is paying higher than whom in 2019. Neither u nor I can change USCIS data. I have already posted the data and it says what it says about TCS and Amazon. That's not the point. I genuinely want to listen to your definition of merit, since you have been such a vocal advocate, like many of us, for merit based immigration. If you want to stick wages as the metric, so be it, since by your metric TCS consultants deserve GC more than your engineers. I m happy with that outcome.
      Jul 16
  • Fitbit gfrog
    Many Indian Consulting Companies forge salary data, the contracting job are by its nature unstable, and the payroll may get discontinued when the contractors switch between projects, do you know how ICC handles it? Do fake 'payrolls', ask employees to repay it and pay for the taxes themselves. Since employees are on H1b and have no grace period left, they have to do whatever are suggested..
    Jul 16 28
    • Amazon acker
      One solution would be to make the 150k salary a requirement for eb2, then remove the country cap only for eb2. Maybe also shift the allocation so it's 60000 eb2 and 20000 eb3 instead of 40k/40k. People in eb2 with less than 150k on their i140 would move to eb3.

      Leave a country cap on eb3 as it makes sense to prioritize diversity in the unskilled category where merit is by definition not a factor but remove it for eb2 where merit is the goal, adjusting the 150k threshold and necessary to eliminate the backlog.

      That would be a great way to do it. The good people would all qualify for eb2 and get greencards.
      Jul 18
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      I wouldn't be so sure about consultancies not being able to scale up to $150K. You have no clue about the competitiveness of Indians or Indian companies, they might as well adjust their salaries to meet your $150K bar, if the law so requires. You already have TCS paying average of $145K in 2019
      Jul 18
    • Microsoft oMAG58
      Yeah, nobody is saying this should only apply to Indians. Why do you automatically tie people's ideas to race?
      Jul 18
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      😁 @msft - you haven't been following Mr acker's posts in this thread, have you?
      Jul 18
    • Amazon acker
      oMA is correct and you are wrong again, no one said this would only apply to Indians.

      I'm ok with including the small number of consultants who can actually get paid the market rate. I just don't want people who can get market rate waiting behind people who can't.
      Jul 18
    • Amazon acker
      It got though because it was heavily bankrolled by special interest groups, namely Cognizant and their ilk. That's what happens when citizens aren't vigilant: democracy dies in darkness. And that's why you need to call your senator to educate them.
      Jul 16
    • Google / Eng backlogged
      Lol keep spinning - everyone who opposed you at this point is either idiot, brainwashed, has no original thought process.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      So let's come back to basics and talk about objective metrics.

      Using median income as a proxy for merit hr1044 will lower the merit of the median greencard recipient as compared to the status quo, proving that it results in a less desirable prioritization.

      S2091 sidesteps the issue entirely by clearing the backlog and eliminating the need to prioritize between qualified people.
      Jul 16
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      acker knows everything. Stop arguing against him.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      Thanks
      Jul 16
  • Walmart.com 🌲50
    OP
    Very happy with the discussion here so far. More happy because the desperation of the opposers, evident by the lengthy posts, has exposed their hypocrisy even more. Time to compile a lengthy post of my own with some interesting whimpering points from the naysayers -

    One bright kid from Microsoft complains " why do you judge people based on the salary ". This same bright kid, and his pals, profess that Indian consultants are low merit and abuse the system. Ask them how do they know it? Low salary!

    The super data savvy Amazon guy, who proudly posted old irrelevant data all over blind, secretly hoping no one ever finds the latest data, has found a reason to trust and s*ck up to this new data - why ? Because he thinks it's Trump. This fellow now complains about farm workers and nurses lowering the salaries of other countries compared to India, of course without concrete data. We can't blame him because the same data source, when sorted for the top 50 job occupations for 2018, shows farm workers and nurses at 187 applications, and it's so low in 2019 that it doesn't even show up in top 50 so far. But, no he thinks that non existent GC occupations are what is responsible for India's avg salary to be nearly same as that of France, UK, Russia China Germany etc.
    Jul 16 7
    • Amazon acker
      You really don't understand the data. Period.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      😁🍿
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      You really don't. You think for example that 2016 petitions are not in the current backlog and called it "old" and "irrelevant" data because you don't understand that the backog is all petitions since 2009.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      Saying "you don't" twice doesn't make it any less false than the first time.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      I explained in detail where you failed
      Jul 16
  • Amazon acker
    OP didn't realize each year page was showing only that years petitions and didn't understand his 2019 data is only for post Trump 2019 petitions when in reality the priority date for India is 2009...

    Hilarious!

    Thread will be deleted in 3, 2, 1...
    Jul 15 8
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      Sorry msft couldn't read your post. Lemme know the day your avg salary exceeds TCS avg salary, then I will come back and read your post.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      The backlog contains all petitions from 2009 to 2019 so you are just flat wrong.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      @Acker like I said - read about the process. No harm in knowing something that you don't, right?
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      I know a lot about the process. For example, I know that every year India gets far more visas than the country cap due to Spillover, actually more than it's 17% share of world population, and yet the priority date advances by only a couple of months a year.

      2018 in first through third preference excluding "other workers" India got 21113 visas out of 117,100 visas which is actually 18% of the total whereas India is only 17% of the world population.

      By the way if you give India 85% of the visas as hr1044 proposed that's only 4 to 5 times faster (actually 4.7 times) so if the queue is really 100 years that drops it to 21 years. Meanwhile the queue actually grows all that time because R.O.W. still submits applications.

      Either the India lobby's math on the size of the backlog is wrong or the claim that this bill reduces the queue is wrong (hint: the latter).

      Note that I excluded farm labor and religious workers which is why it's 117k and not 144k.

      Data here:

      https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-statistics/annual-reports/report-of-the-visa-office-2018.html
      Jul 16
    • Microsoft fantasiA
      Acker this guy is a troll. None of his replies respond to the actual comments. Just childish name-calling. Lets just ignore him. He is a net negative to this society. Shame on you, OP.
      Jul 16
  • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
    Dude, why do you bring up this topic on blind. Are you friggin nuts? Do you really think you’re going to convert those against the bill? Do something useful like joining a community that is actually trying to get it passed instead of useless research that organisations like CATO have already done a long time ago.
    Jul 15 4
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      I do not care much about the passage of the bill. However it is important that spread of misinformation is prevented. I had no idea that such data exists. Instead of uncivil and berating debates, I think data driven objective debates are more beneficial to the community.
      Jul 15
    • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
      As an experience campaigner, I wish you good luck. All I can do is shake my head at your naïveté. You are like the Brahmin who went to teach the virtues of vegetarianism to a tiger and became the meal inside it. Pursuing conversations face-to-face with data has some meaning. In this anonymous world of blind, where every anti-immigrant’s worst instincts are stoked, you want to use reason? Lol
      Jul 15
    • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
      Just search for HR 1044 in blind and you’ll see what I mean
      Jul 15
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      I completely agree with you. But will be interesting to see the responses. Just for 🍿
      Jul 15
  • Apple MClayton
    I've definitely noticed that people who are against the bill use cherry-picked data (eg. Showing some random past year instead of the latest data, or creating charts without providing any methodology of where the numbers came from).
    Jul 15 1
    • Amazon acker
      2019 is a cherry picked year. It is the only year in the data where Trump's crackdown on the consulting firms was in full effect. Pick any other year from 2010 to 2018, namely the years the backlog grew.

      Here's 2017:
      Jul 15
  • Microsoft / Eng HINs46
    They've been staying here longer, therefore the higher avg wage. Not because that they are better to begin with.
    US immigration law is s**t, I agree. But fixing a s**t with another, and asking ROW who have zero liability to pay for it, that's ridiculous.
    Jul 16 7
    • Amazon acker
      We are changing the law, right? A bill can change it however we want.

      In this case we could create an uncapped fast lane only for people with qualifying jobs. For the purpose of the fast lane your priority date would be the date of your first qualifying i140.

      Make a new EB2A preference that is uncapped and includes every petition that is for direct employment and pays an above median wage for it's job code, relative to other petitions. Automatically consider every EB2 petition in the backlog for this uncapped visa category, and have this category filled in priority to EB2.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      For a change, I agree with you @acker but lot of your fellow Amazonians might not. That "pays wage above median wage for it's job code" clause might make lot of applications from your company ineligible.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      Then they would fall into the regular EB2 preference and get filled under the cap. They would have to wait in line behind all the highly skilled people, likely for years, but so be it. This would achieve a no wait greencard for the top people regardless of country of birth.

      Once we are talking about people who are not particularly skilled the diversity argument becomes much stronger. It's a very weak argument only when we are talking about stack ranking by merit. If we are talking about low merit people then bringing in a diverse population makes sense.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      @acker the first paragraph made sense. In the second one you are back to being you. 😁
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      If we are bringing in unskilled people they are all basically of equal merit. The only potentially beneficial thing that might differentiate them is a different background or viewpoint.

      In any case we've agreed on prioritizing merit where we can objectively identify it.
      Jul 16
  • Walmart.com 🌲50
    OP
    Btw, I didn't know, our Mr Acker here has a big fan club. One full blind thread dedicated to him: https://us.teamblind.com/s/dUU8nvts
    Jul 16 6
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      No personal attack intended. Sorry if you felt attacked by any post on Blind, irrespective of your views and ideologies. I was just trying to bask in the glory of such famous Blinders as yourself taking time to comment on my post.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      You literally just named me and linked to that thread claiming it was about me.

      You are a failed troll.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      The OP of that post said it's you. Anyways, that's none of my business, I don't want to be a successful troll either.
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      OP of that post eventually admitted it wasn't me if you read the comments but obnoxiously failed to apologise. It was "MadBirddy" who posted those things.

      Typical hr1044 supporter resorting to vile personal attack because hr1044 is indefensible.
      Jul 16
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      Yeah the 65 opposing House representatives thought so too.
      Jul 16
  • Microsoft HqoA11
    OP, as someone who is following this bill, but not affected, I was curious when I read your post, and found it compelling at first. However, people brought facts and numbers which proved to me that your original post is not honest and is partly skewed data. You were not able to support your argument with valid evidence, and not willing to accept flaws in your argument. Therefore, objectively I can’t accept the argument you are making in your original post.
    Here are the flaws:
    - The data is only for 2019(5.5 months remained). There were changes in the enforcement of GC process that are affecting average TCs of accepted i140 applicants.
    - You have mixed software salaries with nurses and farmers.
    - You have not included stock grants and cash bonuses and only base. This is an important point people keep ignoring. I don’t know how much consultancy companies pay in stock, but for example in Amazon, the average base of the entire company can never be higher than 160k, but many people are paid salaries as high as 400-500k due to stock and cash bonuses.

    If you are willing to continue this discussion, please bring facts and data points to address these flaws.
    Jul 16 1
    • Groupon / Eng sleepy
      I don’t think these are not available at all. The only data source anyone has is this PERM data.
      Jul 16
  • Google loluber
    Well for many of us base/salary is about 40% of the compensation but for TCS, it's their 100%.
    Jul 17 10
    • Amazon acker
      Translation: he failed the l6 loop and got an l5 offer or based on screening wasn't even given the opportunity to interview because we could see the wasn't there.
      Jul 18
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      No way to prove that, but may be if I interview, I will fail the l6 loop or pass it, no one knows. But since it's Amazon and I have been interviewing Amazonians for quite some time at my org, I have a basic idea about the avg quality of your employees. I don't think your interviews or bar is anywhere close to the bar at my group. Wanna give it a try? By the way acker, if amazon can offer 500K TC at 6 yoe, will you please refer my CV ? 😁
      Jul 18
    • Amazon acker
      You don't qualify...
      Jul 18
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      I m so sad 😥
      Jul 18
    • Google troll123
      Very funny and salty bro. Keep that up.
      Jul 18
  • Uber ndada
    Not for the last few years, no
    Jul 16 3
    • Amazon acker
      Wrong. Here's 2018:

      https://www.myvisajobs.com/India-PERM18CT.htm

      2019 is the ONLY year not dominated by Cognizant (and the year isn't up yet).
      Jul 16
    • Uber ndada
      No I mean the Indian eb2 priority date hasn’t moved far in the last few years
      Jul 16
    • Amazon acker
      Ah, well, then you should question the hr1044 folks who claim a 4.7x increase in the rate of issuing visas is magically going to make it current.
      Jul 16
  • Amazon TRuc81
    Show 2015-2018
    Jul 15 1
    • Amazon acker
      And exclude the farm employment...
      Jul 15
  • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
    You’ll just drum up anti immigrant rhetoric here.. the less you talk and the more you do something about the bill, the better.
    Jul 15 0
  • Gilead Sciences / R&D cartman++
    Lies, goddamned lies, and statistics. We all know the situation with IT departments all over the country.
    Jul 16 0
  • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
    Do something more useful with your time like actually work towards the bill.
    Jul 15 2
    • Microsoft hkbest
      How? H1Bs can't even vote.
      Jul 15
    • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
      But voters who want to do the right thing can. Have you heard of Immigration Voice? Reach out to them - I know they and this community need all the help they can get.
      Jul 15
  • Microsoft / Mgmt anon-soft
    Jul 15 2
    • Amazon acker
      Redo the calculation with like for like comparisons, namely, comparing similar job categories. The main problem with that analysis is that it included farm employment which really skews the data, particular for Mexico, Vietnam, etc.

      We can argue the merits of the set aside in the legislation for farm workers but it's really not appropriate to include it in a comparison of the India queue which is mostly software engineers who aren't eligible for the farm visas.

      I'm all for removing that weird farm labor part of the legislation, it's kind of silly, but hr1044 doesn't remove it from the legislation either so....
      Jul 15
    • Microsoft oMAG58
      You know that that is sneaky representation. You can have an exam better than the class average, but it certainly doesn't mean you have the highest score. Bucketing R.O.W into one average is how David Bier the so-called "analyst" tries to represent India as highest paid immigrants.
      Jul 16
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      You are correct. The comparison is between the top sponsors. It's way easier to obtain higher average on fewer applications, so it's only fair that we first filter based on the number of applications
      Jul 15
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      OP
      I don't disagree. I know S386 is never gonna pass Senate. But doesn't affect me much, I m pretty mobile and won't mind moving back to India.
      Jul 15
  • Dropbox Gemin1
    I’m surprised that Tata salaries are that high, but I’m pretty sure once you factor in RSUs and bonuses, companies like Google and Facebook are much higher.
    Jul 25 0