Any updated information regarding the CA fair employment investigation happening?
Why won’t riot provide employee pay data?
Anyone know what’s going on or have updated info?
Seems like riots been in hot water since the walkouts.
- Every software engineer in America actually doesn't have the luxury of just leaving their job. To think so is blatantly ignorant.
A lot of engineers have trouble finding jobs. Plenty of engineers are in low wage jobs that don't have a rainy day fund. Or have other commitments/debts (I.e. a family while living paycheck to paycheck).
It's along the same veins of saying: people in America have the luxury of leaving an abusive relationship. It shows a massive amount of ignorance and lack of empathy.Jun 14 11
- Amazon B2VZFfSeems like this issue has been going on for at least a year or more at Riot: https://kotaku.com/the-state-of-california-is-investigating-riot-games-for-1835463823
- Ah, a masterful gaslighter. Well done.
You said "Kotaku isn't a reliable source. No one has the whole story so we're going to have to wait". Maybe tell us why, in our opinion, Kotaku isn't a reliable source. And then let us know when the story becomes "whole" so we can stop waitingJun 14 10
- Like when this happened at Google and they found out they were underpaying men?
- Incorrect. It was a small enough number to be statistically insignificant.
Women get stiffed for tens of thousands of dollars, sizable enough to a big ass dip in any analysis they can run, in other words, the only way you can miss seeing that dip is if you really decide to ignore it.
2 years ago Microsoft low key gave a “raise” to a bunch of women. Sudden raises following a class action lawsuit. The people that got it got an avg of 15K. I know a couple that got 20K
- When there is one instance of men being underpaid, then yes, let's look at it and correct the pay. Why are you upset about people at riot trying to do the same?
There is a difference between systemic issues and something happening once or twice. This is basic stats, why is it so difficult to understand?
https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/gender-equality/women-in-the-workplace-2018Jun 15 2
- Amazon minutemanRiots culture issues are pretty obvious. You watch any behind the scenes dev video where they go into how there doing say a champ rework and it's literally machismo bro culture everywhere
- Pay is negotiated and accepted by both parties at time of offer. Just because females at a company make less does not mean they are actively discriminated against in a wrongful way.
There is far less females in tech, a smaller talent pool, and females negotiate less and apply to roles far more conservatively.
I don't think these arguments about pay at the end of the cycle make sense. We are talking about the wrong problem. The real problems are likely 1) pipeline problems -- total count of technical females 2) social conditioning and 3) possibly biology (females tend to have higher value on relationships and be afraid to take social risks such as asking for a raise)
So yes, bullies exist, but there is also responsibility on the part of whoever is underpaid or discriminated against to take smart and aggressive action. Bottom line employees have no intrinsic right to a salary or certain numbers -- it's a leverage game. If you got the goods and are in demand you have leverage and can negotiate a higher offer. If you don't or don't have the courage to negotiate then that is on you.
- if you negotiate pay as a female the same way you’d negotiate as a male, more often than not the offer gets rescinded because “she’s aggressive”. One company rescinded my offer when I pushed for more. The reason I asked for more is because classmate got and I got offers the same time for the same level, he was offered significantly higher pay so I knew they could go up. I was also better qualified than him.
It’s not as easy as saying “negotiate harder”
- Agree. They accepted their compensation, why they complain now? What is wrong with the ppl. How do they compare performans vs salary? Have seen some seniors women engineers who do almost zero contributions to the code base during the last Two years, just one liners config changes. Same can say about males as well. My point is that we need to count performance, not gender. Wake up, ppl.
- Twitter how do you 'count performance' free of bias? How do you make sure people get the same opportunities to perform?
Counsyl, research shows that women now negotiate as much as men do - it just doesn't work as well for them.
On average, you expect pay to be similar - people aren't complaining about one or two individuals - on average, for the same level, people should be paid the same.
- Discrimination, really; new job. Come early every day. One day I am late, I get pulled into the office by the VP to talk about being "consistent".
Yet, the white guy comes in late, is on his phone everyday all day, VP passes him by; doesn't say shit.
Everyday I say to myself, this is for experience.
Let's not talk about me leaving early. One of the Admins basically tried to make it seem like I left and didn't do any work
- Sounds like it has more to do with you being the new guy than not being white. You'll always be under a stricter lens when you first start, and of course you'll always end up with coasters somewhere along the line.
Of course, I only have the limited info from your comment, so :shrug:
- You're the new guy. You've earned nothing. Although it's cute you think your platinum card is a status symbol :) shows where your priorities are. "I pay a $600 annual fee, I deserve special treatment! And it means I am wealthy! Why won't you respect me?! Waaaah"
Thanks for proving us right!
- LOL. Yeah, I was undecided before but you seem like a grade-A entitled c*nt. No wonder your boss doesnt like you.
Have fun with your lack of experience and your fancy credit card. The rest of us will do the same without declaring our false superiority.
I've had an amex black card for 6 years. Does that mean you'll bring me drinks, or is that still below your platinum ass?
- ForeFlight beebooperTech can be bad for sure, but most adult companies have some level of control. Startup tech can definitely worse than average. Game companies even more so.
At some point there needs to be some adults in the room to put a stop to shit like this. Not by age but by understanding that they are running a business. And not a frat house.
If you read anything about game company culture they tend to be on the frat house side of things.
- It depends wholly on the company. You have to realize that nearly all AAA development goes through the larger studios, and they are run as such. Which isnt necessarily a good thing, but it's certainly better than Riot.
At GE, theres plenty of implicit bias against women. It's hard to get rid of when your company is run by 60 year old white dudes that grew up around that. Companies like EA, Bioware, etc. suffer from those same problems. Better than Riot, but not necessarily good.
- Women don’t get paid less because they do less work. They get paid less because the work they do, even if it’s objectively on par with their peers, is often judged more harshly and perceived less valuable. You have to do far better than an average male to be perceived as doing adequate work.
That’s why women in the financial industry, specifically investment banking actually have better performance than men-the ones that stick around in a sexist industry are far better than their male peers and this time there’s real $$$signs to track that. And even with that tangible data, you don’t see hedge funds lining up to hire women.
- Women are paid less over their entire career because: they have access to fewer opportunities, take longer to get promoted, have access to fewer mentors and sponsors, etc etc. All of this has to do with people seeing women as less competent.
Why are women not hired as much as men? They're seen as less competent.
I'm not sure what you think you're proving.
- I sympathize with victims of sexual harassment.
I believe everyone needs to be protected from that kind of stuff.
Gender discrimination in pay I can't sympathize with. Companies will tend to low-ball regardless of gender. The burden to negotiate and procure what you deserve rests on the individual. I believe there are females out there who are pros at negotiation and getting Royal compensation.
- When your choices are a low-ball, rejection, or no offer at all, the answer doesn't seem so clear. It's easy to say "just negotiate" when a significantly higher percentage of your negotiations bear fruit.
I'm sure it does work for some. That doesnt excuse a systemic mysoginistic problem.
EDIT: to clarify, this is coming from a straight male at 8YoE making >350k Tc. You dont need to be affected to see the results. You just need to pay ANY amount of attention.
Same found in these reports by McKinsey: https://womenintheworkplace.com/2016
https://womenintheworkplace.com <-- this goes to their 2018 one
- I am yet to see a study that shows we pay women less for the same job description, experience, hours put. A single serious study, not an opinion.
- Not to interfere with intellectual debate but here is one: men are working much longer hours https://businessculture.org/northern-europe/iceland/work-life-balance/
- Also 93% of job fatalities are men : https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/how-come-nobody-talks-about-the-gender-workplace-death-gap/
- breathe woman works fewer hours compare to men https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/mobile/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm
- Here is more on women picking easier jobs https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/09/11/220748057/why-women-like-me-choose-lower-paying-jobs
- Men and women make the same amount right after college https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/harvard-prof-takes-down-gender-wage-gap-myth
- 58% of college grads are female https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/education/cb10-55.html
- Time worked in ice land and job fatalities are relevant how?
Working fewer hours relevant hour? You do understand the concept of equal pay for equal work right?
If construction and plumbing were high paying jobs, that women were systematically kept out of, sure.
In terms of women picking easier jobs, that is literally one woman.
It's not surprising men and women make the same right after college - the wage gap is over their life times, as women miss out on promotions and advances due to systematic bias.
If 58% of college grads are women, why aren't 58% of college educated jobs held by women?Jun 19 0
- And lol at your micdrop. I give you the largest study of gender in the workplace in the us, and you give me a bunch of one off articles, not even the actual research.
While you continue to cycle through usernames, might be worth reading up on what constitutes research, what the actual wage gap is about, and thinking about why you feel threatened by the concept of more women in the workplace.Jun 19 0
- New / Strategy MWSt70A few thoughts:
1) I believe that while there are probably some issues, most of this outrage overblown and driven by the press that enjoys demonizing tech and gaming companies (especially the latter)
2) How does pay data indicate discrimination? I think it’s generally well understood that men are more willing to negotiate. If this means that men are paid a little higher on average for the same position, is this discrimination?
- OceanX / Eng Tuqx04Let me guess, this should be gender discrimination against women right?
Have anyone heard abt someone complaining abt gender against men.
What did they do at riot against a gender... What is this discrimination exactly in this case, anyone from riot?
- KeepTruckin dyLo25I get where you are coming from but riot is particularly bad. https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483
- First time they’ve put out a press release saying they are investigating a company instead of a press release stating a court judgement or settlement. The last several dozen releases on their site are not of this sort. It’s more than a little odd.
We’ve been dragged through the mud in the press. People here have been obsessive with pay fairness for years, I seriously doubt there’s a systemic pay issue. But, our external reputation is bad on this topic due to the press coverage.
I personally think this is political theater since Californians are demanding that the government get tough on sexual harassment and pay disparity and we are a convenient target with all of our bad press. We also don’t have a large legal department and we don’t give money to politicians (exact opposite of Hollywood). I’m sure the individual investigators think they are doing the right thing going after us, but I’m a lot more cynical about government now and it feels really unfair.
- You may be confusing the anecdote with the system and pattern. I think most of the anecdotes around sexual harassment are true. However, there aren’t many for the size of company we are, and even the worst ones are not that severe in the range of possibility, and the ones I’m aware that felt like a termination should happen seem to have resulted in that person being gone. I can believe my colleagues while also believing our systems are really good and exit bad actors. People will make bad decisions and the company is in the right if it promptly does the right thing and works to prevent it. Also, the system should not exit someone every time an accusation of any sort is made. The system should exit someone every time a substantiated accusation is made where the accusation is significant misconduct.
On pay disparity, which is the state investigation’s focus, I have stronger feelings. We have so many repeated steps to check pay fairness with independent senior people pushing back, and have for a long time. We could get it wrong for a few months or on an offer or something, or someone could have an incompetent manager that gets most assessments wrong, but I don’t think we have more anecdotes of incorrect pay than other well run companies, and I am very confident from my own interactions that the systems to prevent pay unfairness are extremely strong and independent here and that everyone wants to do the right thing.
I think our recent press coverage is not fair or accurate. And I don’t think CA going after us is fair at this point, I think it’s opportunistic and political.
- In that case, there should be no reason to hold back salary data.
Look, I get the media going after the company you work for (hello, I work at FB). But from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the system worked for sexual harassment - things had to go pretty far, and become public for a lot of the action to happen. And with the sexual harassment stuff, the articles describing the culture at riot seemed pretty bad. Sexual harassment happens at every company, and will hopefully also remain low enough to seem anecdotal. The pattern isn't that it happens, the pattern is what happens afterwards and how it's handled. Doesn't seem like that second bit was done well.
If there isn't an issue at riot, CA can't invent pay data to show there is. If there is an issue, then things get fixed. I don't see what the loss here is, besides the fact that people suddenly know who riot is.
- We gave them the pay data, they didn’t like the format. One of the engineers analyzed the dialogue between our lawyers and theirs which they released to an internal whistleblower who posted it. The engineer felt that the the largest issue seemed to be that the investigators don’t know how to use excel pivot tables. I don’t know if that’s true. There was also a bunch of stuff about protecting confidential information in the discussion the cal government published where we would point out that we had some one-off job titles and that you’d not be able to keep people’s information confidential if it was leaked. We asked them to agree to not leak it on this basis (which we said is required by law anyway) and they were refusing to agree to it. Not sure if that was worked out. Unclear why. Not a lawyer, I just read the 100something pages CA put out.
Think about that if it’s true. They’d be doing statistical analysis on our pay and don’t have access to someone who can use excel.
All signs to me point to this being political and opportunistic. Get tough on gender issues by going after notorious Riot Games! Facts don’t matter in making allegations but they will matter if it continues and I have faith our leadership did the right things and we are in the right. If we didn’t I think it would an unintended mistake and that we’d enthusiastically correct it.
- Eh, I think I'll wait to see what they say. I assume that the department of labor has statisticians since half of what they do is analyse the labor market.
Why would they release dialogue? to an internal whistleblower? That seems strange. Also, if the internal person was whistleblowing, then surely it means they saw a problem too?
- It is super weird. The day the press release came out(first time they’ve done that on an investigation), one of the walkout organizers posted a bunch of redacted documents that were conversations between the state and our lawyers. Over 100 pages plus a summary, along with a request to complain directly to the investigator.
I think they are struggling to get evidence because we actually are a really good place to work and the evidence is probably showing that. I don’t think an investigator would want to drop a case they’ve put a lot of sunk cost into.
- They did a press release for Google too. Riot isn't unique in this whole process.
I mean, it's a good place to work, unless you're a woman? Nevermind the lawsuit, reading the accounts of women who've worked there makes it sound pretty grim. Why don't you believe that their experience doesn't match yours?
Also, complaining directly to the investigator makes sense - riot has a vested interest in making sure no one complains. That sounds pretty standard. What's odd is that the person who posted the docs didn't get fired for posting confidential info - unless it was condoned by the company.
- The women who have had the bad experience have described it that way. Internal surveys are unlikely to show this because such a small minority are women.
If people are trying to raise this, I'm tempted to believe them, especially if the treatment they're receiving is related to their gender. When you've spoken to your women colleagues, how do they feel?
And, when there are multiple 'anecdotes' from a very small population, at what point do you consider them representative? Does every woman have to be sexually harassed for it to be a problem?
- PayPal retrogrademoreFriend of mine has an interview scheduled with Riot but they’re stalling - anyone know if hiring is frozen with this news?
- Consulting companies in early 2000s used to just put everyone's pay right from CXO to the intern on internal websites and anyone could check everyone else's pay. Never had a problem with gender discrimination. On the other hand, people started working harder cause now there was more clarity on what it takes to get a certain amount of TC.
Why do companies don't do that anymore.
- Few companies are still doing it
- And thanks for proving that you don't read. With a VP kinda letting all this bullshit go on means there is discrimination and favoritism. Personally I am getting tired of the nasty undertone, comments, and these tactics to make me feel on the lower rung. Seems to be a recurring theme with these positions.
In any event people like you always have karma come back and hit them, usually it's with a car. So good luck.
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