Diversity hiring and affirmative action

Facebook clickfarm
Mar 4, 2018 71 Comments

So I think affirmative action and diversity initiatives in corporate America are broken. Companies value diversity that can be highlighted in a brochure more than real diversity. What I mean by this is that companies like fb, ms, and Google are working really hard to get more black, Hispanic, female, etc employees as we track those numbers. However you can be black and come from a affluent family of doctors. Likewise, a straight, white male that grew up extremely poor and faced homelessness growing up, worked multiple jobs to put himself through college, etc wouldn't benefit from current affirmative action initiatives in tech. Likewise, a black engineer from a poor financial background probably didn't have as good grades as the black guy from a family of doctors as the first individual was working multiple jobs in addition to being a student to afford school. However, the way the current race based system is set up, the black guy from a family of doctors would get hired as he's the stronger candidate on paper and counts just as much to the black quota as the poor individual. However, the poor background individual would actually be the one bringing real diverse value as he's be hungrier and more resourceful as he had to fight for everything he has and was given nothing.

Essentially, I think diversity initiatives shouldn't be based as much on things like race or gender but rather adversity you have had to deal with and my argument is that coming from a financially disadvantaged background is a much bigger adversity than race or gender.

Thoughts?

Edit: A lot of people in this group are assuming I'm a pissed off white guy which I've found kinda funny to me given I'm black. My personal context is coming from a blue collar background, I had to work multiple jobs to put myself through school. Companies want the best black talent and it seems like we are often evaluated against other blacks instead of more holistically. Obviously the black kids whose parents are well off had better grades or more extracurricular activities as they aren't working in addition to being school. This is something not being considered as you want the blacks most similar to middle to upper class white kids. Lower class white kids would bring more diversity than well off black kids

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TOP 71 Comments
  • Capital One VRqA34
    Judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character? It was literally hitler who said that.
    Mar 4, 2018 11
    • Microsoft / Eng Dr.Who
      It's a joke calling Hitler a racist. It's fine.
      Mar 5, 2018
    • LinkedIn Blind Mod
      Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No!
      Mar 10, 2018
    • Microsoft / Eng realist
      I hope that's a joke. Japan attacked pearl harbor and by bomb do you mean suicide pilots?

      I'm correcting you but still feel like you're just joking...
      Mar 11, 2018
    • LinkedIn Blind Mod
      Go watch Animal House, or just search for Germans bombing Pearl Harbor videos on YouTube.
      Mar 11, 2018
    • Google / Eng
      zwerp

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Uber, Microsoft
      zwerpmore
      guys.
      Mar 11, 2018
  • Facebook / Eng I Can’t
    Your characterization of how the company views diversity is highly inaccurate and not grounded in reality. Please educate yourself on our diversity recruiting strategies because clearly you are misinformed in how it works in practice
    Mar 4, 2018 27
    • Facebook / Eng ohboi
      Look up the slippery slope fallacy. You are correct about blind not being the best place. But I've looked at the YouTube case and even the emails submitted as evidence don't prove the recruiters claims. If what they say is true yeah fuck them. So far the evidence has not shown that. Innocent until proven guilty right?

      It's like the boy who cried wolf except wolf sightings are extremely rare and anyone asking for proof is met with "bbbut the wolves are very smart!".
      Mar 5, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng I Can’t
      @Sioux let’s assume what you are saying is right. Then how come this massive conspiracy to get more black engineers at FB at the expense of other “more qualified” engineers has led to black engineers being only 1% of engineers still? Are you saying the tens of black engineers are only there due to lowering the bar? Let’s say every black engineer hired was due to shadiness that you are convinced is happening. We are talking about maybe 20 hires. No way that small number has any impact for majority candidates. It is a baseless fear.

      And what part of recruiters aren’t involved in hiring decisions don’t you understand. You will need to have all the directors (which is usually who are making hiring decisions) to agree to lowering the bar. I can’t vouch for other companies but with the way it is set up at Facebook you would need this to happen across so many people. Literally it will need to be a conspiracy. And given the results it would be a very ineffective one that opens the company to huge liability.
      Mar 5, 2018
    • Expedia Sioux
      I'd expect nothing less than FB employees creating a narrative that isn't there, lol. I'll concede my contrived example was excessive, but otherwise y'all are creating a false narrative.
      Mar 5, 2018
    • Microsoft / Mgmt dmMeThings
      Icant sounds like he a pompous knob.
      Mar 5, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng I Can’t
      What exactly is the false narrative I’m creating?
      Mar 6, 2018
  • CoreLogic / Product
    ElDudereno

    CoreLogic Product

    BIO
    Product Manager
    ElDuderenomore
    Yep, artificial diversity. Our team photos look vibrant, but our cafeteria conversations are an echo chamber.
    Mar 4, 2018 0
  • Amazon / Other HaWk18
    People are discriminated moreso based off racism and gender bias rather than classism (which is what you’re referring to).

    Those who struggle with classism have opportunity to change their class based off of several factors, even though some are never able to.

    Those who face racial and gender discriminations can never escape bias when their resume is screened or their LinkedIn profile is viewed. They cannot change their race or gender to change people’s first impressions of them.

    That’s the difference and why initiatives are set to remove that bias.

    Basing it off of class is not fair nor will it solve “diversity” issues in corporate America.
    Mar 4, 2018 6
    • Facebook / Eng I Can’t
      @clickfarm the problem is you are assuming we FB is hiring unqualified people solely because they tick some diversity checkbox. Everyone is held to the same bar. Go to a candidate review session yourself, race or gender never enter the conversation.

      Also you should know interview performance has no correlation with long term performance at FB. So curious how you are defining “less qualified” to begin with. What evidence do you have that this is taking place to begin with?
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Facebook clickfarm
      OP
      I guess it's just it usually the talent bar at fb is really high and the instances when I meet someone below our usual par, they always are some sort of under represented minorities. So I'm assuming based on my three years at Facebook that we are considering that as the tipping point for borderline candidates. I've yet to meet an incompetent straight, white, male candidate at fb. I'm assuming we hold them to a slightly higher standard as they are more prevalent so we compare them against one another and choose the best
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng I Can’t
      Yea unless there is data backing up your statement it is anecdotal at best. I have worked with low performers and they were all Asian/white men. In fact all the women I’ve worked with have been amazing engineers.

      Also it is generally dangerous in my view to judge the talent of coworkers. Trust the hiring process and if we do make mistakes at hiring time managers will take appropriate action.

      Also if you mean new grads joining then i wouldn’t necessarily judge them until 3-4 years into their career. I’ve seen engineers that start of as high performers fizzle and those slower to ramp up turn into incredible engineers. I myself had a relatively slow start at FB before i got my footing.
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Microsoft / Eng
      AmlEvil

      Microsoft Eng

      BIO
      Sinful birth under the cross
      AmlEvilmore
      If interview performance is not correlated with long-term performance, your interview process is not very good.
      Mar 5, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng ohboi
      Obviously at FB we have an above average interview process. You have worked with enough umr to know they always underperform? If you've worked with more then five in tech at FB you almost have to be lying. Not to mention the fact even if you've worked with 20 you can't speak on a whole group like that. I could also find 20 Asian or white males that aren't up to par here. That's what pip is for and we have one of the lowest rate in the industry for it. Face it we do really well at hiring.
      Mar 5, 2018
  • Accenture / Other
    obamacare

    Accenture Other

    BIO
    Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
    obamacaremore
    White males like to hire other white guys.

    One common tactic they do is try and rope Asians into a club with whites over this diversity fight, even though they don’t like promoting Asians into management roles.
    Mar 4, 2018 2
    • Adobe Skynet1
      In your dreams
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng ohboi
      It's true Asians are underrepresented in management for tech companies. It's usually the only time people will admit there's bias involved there.

      I wonder why
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Microsoft / Mgmt khajit_has
      Fucking great article
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Facebook clickfarm
      OP
      This is exactly the point I was trying to make
      Mar 4, 2018
  • Expedia Sioux
    A way to fix the diversity issue is by strengthening the minority communities foundations. Help black + Hispanic, etc kids flourish along with their families. But that's complicated, long term and [when done right, thankless], so it's not realistic.

    Companies (and governments) care more about the OPTICS of diversity as opposed to foundational diversity.
    Mar 4, 2018 2
    • Lyft / Eng runner
      i would challenge this. i agree with the sentiment but by getting more diverse candidates of equal caliber to the candidates that would have been hired otherwise, it you help bring forward a new generation of people that are in a better situation to succeed.
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Expedia Sioux
      I agree! It's the equal caliber part that I want to help facilitate in the future across the board. Hire the good candidates AND improve the next generations prospects so the pipeline can always be [relatively] representative of the entire population.
      Mar 4, 2018
  • Microsoft ndPN62
    I am an Asian brown woman and I can tell you that the privileges I have in this country are not available to 99% of white male. The way the identity politics peddlers paddle diversity is disgusting
    Mar 4, 2018 0
  • Tesla / Eng anon_syed
    You probably walked out of Black Panther hella mad 😂 lmao
    Mar 4, 2018 5
    • Facebook clickfarm
      OP
      I'm actually black and loved that movie. I added more context into my original post. I'm not sure you are getting the point I'm trying to make
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Tesla / Eng anon_syed
      I feel like I’m understanding your basic argument as, if you’ve had a tougher go of it, you ought to get some priority. By the numbers, I’m guessing we’d observe that as a percentage, underrepresented groups generally will have had less advantage. I definitely hear your point, and generally agree with you, but wonder how practical it is to implement a system like this
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Microsoft / Eng
      AmlEvil

      Microsoft Eng

      BIO
      Sinful birth under the cross
      AmlEvilmore
      Why should a person have priority if they had a tougher go?
      Mar 5, 2018
    • Sapient Razorfish BFSc86
      Should a wealthy POC get preferential treatment over a poor white person?
      Apr 4, 2018
    • Microsoft / Eng AmIEwok
      No, they shouldn’t.
      Apr 4, 2018
  • Adobe Dkfjedjsi
    Does diversity hiring mean companies hire more diverse candidates? I can tell that many women are now getting into the interview loops with top tier companies but they still get rejected if they don’t meet the hiring bar. Like for My team at Adobe, for the longest time, the resume that comes my way is 99% male and Indians. This does not reflect the population I see in the CS programs. I expect to see at least 1:4 (1 woman and 4 men) but it’s not happening. Finally last year, I interviewed the first black candidate ever, he didn’t get hired but at least it’s encouraging that HR starts expanding their pipeline.

    Socio economic background is impossible to verify. How can you verify it? Getting into the bank statement, parents income verification? How can you say that so and so come from disadvantaged backgrounds?
    Mar 4, 2018 3
    • Tesla / Eng anon_syed
      This is fundamentally my concern with OP’s idea - now, in addition to basic demographic info, we are collecting time series SES data on candidates? I find it really interesting how uncomfortable the majority demographics are getting as the percentages of underrepresented hires roughly starts to equal the makeup of people getting degrees.
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Facebook clickfarm
      OP
      That's not my goal. My goal is for companies to seek out organizations like questbridge (which offers full rides to top schools for low income, high potential students) or confirm if you received a federal Pell grant for your education instead of always going to grace hopper or racially themed organizations
      Mar 4, 2018
    • Facebook clickfarm
      OP
      Getting diversity for the sake of being able to easily show either numerically or in a photo that you have is shallow. The diversity that comes with having had to work for everything you have has alot of value
      Mar 4, 2018
  • Microsoft / Mgmt khajit_has
    Don’t write a memo, you offend the sheep
    Mar 4, 2018 0
  • Tesla / Eng anon_syed
    This is the most diverse group of white people I’ve ever seen!!!
    Mar 4, 2018 0
  • Zillow Group tresxo
    This has already happened in India, some people with huge wealth get reservation and some poor people don't get it(though it's rare, I know cases).Very very Similar.
    my opinion Till now it has been beneficial to an extent,though it might not be in future
    Mar 4, 2018 0

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