Gender Pay Gap at Microsoft

New / Eng KyJobs
Dec 29, 2017 81 Comments

“Farber's analysis found that the gender pay gap at Microsoft "persists after you control for standard human capital factors, location, performance reviews, and the type of work each employee performs," including workers' job titles (defined at Microsoft according to employees' "Career Stages," which "systematically" see women at lower levels, Farber said).”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2017/12/11/reports-filed-in-microsoft-lawsuit-find-significant-gender-gap-at-firm/

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TOP 81 Comments
  • Oracle rILF60
    Not to sound harsh but there’s an analysis that i read that says that woman are lesser productive/allocate less time to work compared to male counterparts. They’ve taken into account the maternity leaves etc.
    Dec 29, 2017 13
    • Microsoft
      JoanHarris

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things. I have left Microsoft and am working at Amazon but, of course, my opinions are my own.
      JoanHarrismore
      @Paramore - The article says it had controls for performance. I think that would negate the “women don’t work hard” angle even if that were true.

      In my experience women working less at Microsoft hasn’t been true. In fact, in the areas I worked, I’d much more often see men leaving early and “rest and vesting”. I know my experience is not necessarily representative but I would be skeptical of what you claim. I would like to see a link to that research if you have it, though I would suspect it is general data rather than specific like was used in the lawsuit.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft / Design isitreal
      Taken into account maternity leave? Not all women are giving birth. Plus men get plenty of parental leave, a.k.a. golf vacation.
      Dec 30, 2017
    • Apple / Eng Dr. Doctor
      @isitreal golf vacation? Why do you feel that’s an acceptable thing to say? It’s a bigoted shit-bag view.
      Dec 30, 2017
    • Microsoft / Design isitreal
      Because all the men I know that have taken parental leave are dropping their kids off at day care and enjoying their time away. A bigoted shit-bag view is one that assumes women work less and are popping out babies.
      Dec 30, 2017
    • Apple / Eng Dr. Doctor
      I’m not arguing that the idea of someone assuming a woman works less and are always popping out babies isn’t a bigoted shit-bag view. It is, and I’m sure there are plenty of people who believe it because of their anecdotal evidence and narrow understanding of different people’s circumstances.
      Now, what I AM arguing is that you (isitreal) are the same bigoted shit-bag using the same bigoted shit-bag arguments in the same bigoted shit-bag way.
      Having said that, I ask again. Why do you feel like that is an acceptable thing to say?
      Dec 31, 2017
    • Microsoft / Design isitreal
      Don't look into it too deep, Dr. Doctor. It's was, and only was, a counter point to a bigoted shit-bag argument. Happy 2018.
      Dec 31, 2017
    • Apple / Eng Dr. Doctor
      Don’t cop out. You were being a bigoted shit-bag to combat what was a bigoted shit-bag comment. But, it could also be that you jumped straight to bigoted shit-bag to attack someone who is misinformed and could have used some different information or correction.
      The level of discourse surrounding gender and race politics has devolved into bullshit schoolyard doody-head discussion. I expect more from people arguing on my stance’s behalf.
      Dec 31, 2017
    • NASDAQ Baxter
      Women make different life choices than men (per capita) because (*Trigger Warning*) they ARE different than men. Wow. What a controversial view, I'm feeling edgy AF today.
      Dec 31, 2017
    • Microsoft / Design isitreal
      Wow. Sounds like you're having a very bad day, Dr. Grumpy Pants.
      Dec 31, 2017
    • Alibaba
      settle

      Alibaba

      PRE
      Microsoft
      settlemore
      @dr, way to go bro. The way that many Democrats react to any criticism has turned me into a Republican
      Jan 6, 2018
  • Microsoft / Eng 20% raise
    Fake news. If women were unfairly underpaid by one market participant, ie sold labor below the market rate, someone else would profit from hiring these engineers at just under market rate.
    Dec 29, 2017 10
    • Microsoft / Eng Rqih76
      Uh, I assume you’re an HR or executive troll at Microsoft. There’s no covering up how the company treats women differently.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      For the same reason people bitch that Indians hire and promote Indians and same with the Chinese. Bottom line and cost savings considerations are easily eradicated by ethnocentrism and desire to surround yourself with people you can relate to. I’ve seen driven women labeled “pushy” come promotion time while men with similar traits are leaders, I’ve seen interviewers wonder why their female candidates are coming across as too fierce(read they don’t smile and act cute) and thus get rejected, I’ve seen managers wonder if a female Indian candidate is going to pop a kid and leave on maternity leave (this one was a shot show at a startup, they ended up rejecting her for THAT and she sued ). I’ve seen diabetic candidates labeled as “can’t depend on them during stressful times ” because they had to take a snack break. You name it, I’ve seen it.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Bumble / Eng CaBB81
      @ykxj80 why are you so angry about women wanting to be treated equally? You seem to be triggered quite easily when gender equity is brought up. Come on, man up lol 😂
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      Because I’ve been in this industry for a long time. And so far the only other place more vile has been the automotive industry that I’ve seen. And that’s a very very low bar
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Bumble / Eng CaBB81
      So, because the automotive industry is more vile, that makes the gender pay gap issues at #Microsoft OK? Oh, tell us more lol
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      I think your original comment was maybe directed not at me? Idk how you read everything I wrote and thought equal pay bothers me? It’s actually quite the opposite
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Bumble / Eng CaBB81
      Sorry, I misread that.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Apple / Eng Dr. Doctor
      Everyone in this thread that said “fake news” or “triggered” just lost the argument. Your points are nullified, you are nullified. Your brain has a pay gap.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Sephora / Design Popple
      Good one 🙄
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft / Eng 20% raise
      It doesn’t matter if MSFT or even if the majority of companies mispriced female labor. Other market participants see this as an opportunity to make money through arbitrage. Believe me.
      Dec 29, 2017
  • Google ufSfsb
    Not saying that this isn't happening systematically, but I would love to hear Microsoft's rebuttal. We are very much seeing only one argument here.

    In fact, reading the source study (not just the summary from Forbes) I noted the study author uses tenure as a stand in for effort. Other studies have shown women on average put in lower hours due to other sexist social pressures (cooking, childcare, stuff outside of Microsoft purview). Tenure does not account for any variability in effort over that period.
    Dec 29, 2017 13
    • Google ufSfsb
      Of course. Companies do not at all aim to have equal pay for equal work. Their aim is to pay the minimum necessary to retain an employee. But this isn't necessarily specifically targeted at sex, except in as much as sexual differences may make an employee more or less likely to be confident, competitive and assertive.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      I think you’re wrong there. Assertive and confident women are often viewed as aggressive-damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
      That’s why we have laws...let me retract that, that’s why the rest of the developed world has laws
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Google ufSfsb
      I'm confused, which laws are you referring to?
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      Labor laws in general, of which the states has a very rudimentary part
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Google ufSfsb
      What specific law would resolve this do you think? I'm pretty sure most developed countries claim to have this problem ...
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      For example -stricter equal pay laws, re laws on maternity and paternity leave (although I wish both got equal mandatory leave) , overtime work and pay laws, sick leave and compensation- we have none of that. And the places where we have those laws they usually refer to government employees or have exemptions for 99% of industries and loopholes to steal wages. If you look at labor law landscape, the US really hasn’t gone far from pre-depression era , the only thing we’ve outlawed clearly since is child labor.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Google ufSfsb
      Actually, equal pay laws themselves can depress pay, as they bypass the free market. It sounds nice, but in practice it would erode at our ability to negotiate at new jobs and effectively settle on some fixed price per band, removing upward pressure. Equal pay goes directly against the concept of meritocracy (which provides employees with the leverage to negotiate higher wages), however broken that might be in our workplaces.

      Places like France and Canada do have strong laws of the type you mention with much less than 99% loopholes. They also have much lower SWE wages and less dynamic economies. I don't think that's entirely a coincidence.

      Laws cannot solve everything, although I see the temptation.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      Idk, do you get paid overtime for 3 am on-call duty? Because they do, and it’s a matter of choice-want more money, sign up for the gig. Equal pay does not mean merit plays no role, equal pay merely dictates that two people with same levels of education, performance and experience doing the same job must be on the same pay scale.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft pCQG20
      If you were to use level as a way to standardize pay, then you would have to add tens or hundreds of levels to account for all the finer variety in performance. Otherwise people would have the same bonus and pay as long as they're in the same level, and would not be motivated to work harder if they don't think they'll get a promotion.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Google ufSfsb
      Exactly, we'd have so many levels that levels would just take the place of pay in the scenario.

      @yK: I wasn't trying to say all of the labor laws you suggested were unhelpful, just that equal pay laws would depress pay. Standardizing pay by level would have precisely that effect. It's only because some L3 are able to negotiate L4 pay that the market rates rise over time. Otherwise, companies would have to internally maintain consistency ... At which point they would converge on the same rates across the industry, killing free market definition of wages.

      Laws are not perfectly effective tools. They can't change people's minds or biases.
      Dec 29, 2017
  • Expedia yKxj80
    Didn’t MS low key adjust salaries for a ton of women under the guise of “merit increase” just a few months ago? They did it to avoid a lawsuit
    Dec 29, 2017 7
    • Google AamSaltman
      Who knows. What a trash company, though.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      I read it on a thread here actually. Someone was spilling a lot of beans
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Booking.com / Eng Llamas
      Which thread? That’s funny. Several times ive read stuff on Blind before it makes the news.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Expedia yKxj80
      I wish I can find it. This was a few months ago.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft WonderWhat
      Huh I honestly think I am underpaid for my level and brought it up with my manager couple of times but didn’t help.... I didn’t get the so called merit increase
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Google ufSfsb
      @wonder: if you care you should get a counter offer. Or just accept it.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft WonderWhat
      That’s what I am working towards 😊 hopefully they’ll care if I get an offer, my like my commute 😊
      Dec 29, 2017
  • Google / Eng asshole
    This study uses tenure as a base for comparison, but why not job levels? Companies pay at parity for job levels and performance, not tenure.
    Dec 29, 2017 0
  • IBM YQKY82
    The wage gap is a myth. If you think you're worth more, get a different job. Can't get a better job? You're not worth more then.
    Dec 29, 2017 2
    • Google ufSfsb
      Exactly! Especially in tech.

      Some studies do show that both men and women tend to subjectively underrate women, however in tech with panel interviews that are highly objective, this is much less of a concern.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft lavida
      Yeah, honestly, companies will always try to underpay men or women if they can get away with it. The difference, from my experience at least, is that men are more willing to negotiate. I had to push many of my female friends to negotiate because they thought it would look rude. This is not their fault, it's true that some doubchebag managers would view confident women as rude or bitchy and rescind the offer, but it's worth a try because I don't think it's the majority.

      Take this with a grain of salt though, it's only my personal experience with offers given to new grad men and women. The initial offers were usually the same, but the men would always be willing to negotiate. If you start your career with a lower level/salary, it can follow you all of your life, especially if you stay at the same company.
      Dec 29, 2017
  • Lyft / Eng LadyDev
    Gross, but not surprising.
    Dec 29, 2017 0
  • Groupon rahul
    I think there is serious age pay gap at strip clubs
    Dec 29, 2017 4
    • Microsoft Koo
      Because old hookers are objectively less desirable than young ones. You just implied females are less desirable than males in software engineering on what bases exactly?
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Groupon rahul
      Good understanding. You are moved to phone screen.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft Koo
      Your bravado can't help you answer that one, huh? Pretty disappointing
      Dec 31, 2017
    • Groupon rahul
      Triggered?
      Dec 31, 2017
  • Microsoft / Product
    Karsa

    Microsoft Product

    PRE
    startups
    Karsamore
    This is 100% inconsistent with literally every women I've spoke to about this at microsoft over the past 6 years. (and that's quite a lot of anecdotes)
    Dec 29, 2017 3
    • Groupon rahul
      Most likely existing women are overpaid because they have different pee technique
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft GChX27
      And I have heard the exact opposite from every woman I have spoken to here, so it’s your word against mine?
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Groupon rahul
      Everyone meaning everyone thinks they are underpaid
      Dec 29, 2017
  • Microsoft Gbiftuj
    The pay gap in NFL is even bigger for women. Look at all those cheer leaders, they got peanut while the players get millions
    Dec 29, 2017 1
    • Microsoft Koo
      They compared pay for the same jobs, OBVIOUSLY
      Dec 29, 2017
  • PopSugar / Eng NeCL31
    But all the men’s rights trolls said that there is no gender pay gap! Haha
    Dec 29, 2017 0
  • Capital One VRqA34
    If you believe this, start a company and hire up all these underpaid women. Huge opportunity if true.
    Dec 29, 2017 3
    • Groupon rahul
      Amen
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft / Eng 20% raise
      This is exactly why it’s not true.

      Which is more plausible?
      - Every company is sexist and cares more about sexism than about greed / profits.
      - There is at least one company that cares more about greed / profits than sexism.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Groupon rahul
      One is more possible than Every
      Dec 29, 2017
  • Blippar anonymous+
    The study only finds out that across the org, when controlling for certain factors, women are paid less, and have a lower level.

    The study does not ask, of the people at the same level who perform similarly, do women get paid less. I'd like to see the second question being studied instead. Also, I'd like to see medians being used instead of averages.
    Jan 8, 2018 0
  • Bumble / Eng CaBB81
    JFC. And the Gates Foundation focuses on gender equality lol.

    "New initiative will promote gender equality and support the implementation of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals" https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2016/05/Gates-Foundation-Announces-80-Mill-Doll-Comm-Closing-Gender-Data-Gaps-Acc-Progress-for-Women-Girls
    Dec 29, 2017 0
  • Postmates / Eng Bttrfly
    Aw @paramore don’t hurt his feelings Haha
    Dec 29, 2017 0
  • Microsoft Jim Raynor
    Other studies found Microsoft pays less to some men than other men in same career level.
    Jan 9, 2018 1
    • Google korean
      OMG?!! What?! We have to do something about this!
      Jan 9, 2018
  • Microsoft n0
    Has anyone actually read the article? All so called statistical significance in the data is due to simply large ratio between men and women. There is huge bias as you increase in levels. Won't say there is no women discrimination but this article doesn't really show it statistically though.
    Dec 31, 2017 1
    • Microsoft sleepytime
      I'll be the first to admit that stats is not my happy place but reading the article and the linked paper it looks like they considered both the fact that women are more represented at 59-62 versus 63-67 then would be expected affecting pay and then also within each band as well (ignoring promotion velocity). Or are you saying that since the ratio of women is small in general when compared to men, it's hard to make any statistical determination?

      Maybe I'm misinterpreting the control for career stage comment incorrectly but from the article: "Farber's analysis found that the gender pay gap at Microsoft "persists after you control for standard human capital factors, location, performance reviews, and the type of work each employee performs," including workers' job titles (defined at Microsoft according to employees' "Career Stages," which "systematically" see women at lower levels, Farber said)."

      Can't copy paste from Faber's paper but there's a statement that when accounting for pure level band there is a gap of 2.8 % which in reality is likely greater because of promo velocity disparities between men and women.
      Dec 31, 2017
  • IBM / Eng 👁🐝Ⓜ️
    The control variables listed are this:

    “location, performance reviews, and the type of work each employee performs”

    If anyone thinks this is enough to correlate to sexism then you are jumping to conclusions.

    We are missing major factors (age, family situation, hours worked per week, etc.) not to mention all the personality traits (agreeableness, etc.)

    Claiming that you have “controlled” for everything then listing a mere 3 variables is laughable. But then this isn’t an academic study is it?
    Jan 22, 2018 0
  • Proofpoint rix
    Curious to know how we stack against wall St., Big law, and entertainment.
    Dec 29, 2017 0
  • Microsoft Gbiftuj
    Not surprised at all. The CEOs are 100% male.
    Dec 29, 2017 3
    • Microsoft lavida
      That doesn't make any sense, you don't have multiple CEOs. Google, Facebook, Amazon CEOs are 100% male too.
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft Gbiftuj
      Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Satya
      Dec 29, 2017
    • Microsoft lavida
      That's what I thought you meant. Google, Amazon, Facebook don't have female CEOs either. Most tech companies never had female CEOs. The article is specifically targetting Microsoft.
      Dec 30, 2017

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