- New / Eng kMBi76He wasn't wrong... ridiculous for Google to fire someone for reasonably expressing his views
- Salesforce wLSv86This thread clearly shows how many Trumpers are lurking everywhere. Under the veil of anonymity, (blind app or voting booth) people's true colors are shown. Fucked up.
Maybe Silicon Valley employees are getting tired of receiving their fat paychecks at the pricey cost of creating a more inclusive, equal society.
This guy who felt it necessary to tell all his coworkers that women are biologically inferior in tech (while working in tech) for no reason other than to challenge the status quo is not bringing any new viewpoints to the table. He's simply bringing people down and his opinions do no good other than to make people feel bad. What's the point of that?
- People like you are the reason why companies feel comfortable firing people simply because they express non far-left opinions.
Maybe people should be hired and kept on not because of the color of their skin, their mental illnesses, nor their niche identities. Maybe hiring and promotion should be based on merit. A wild theory, I know.
Also sweetie, the election is over. You can get over it any day now.Aug 8, 2017 4
- Lyft fear-meAre people forgetting that this guy's opinion which he freely shared with the entire company is that women have differences in gender that make them unable to be as good at engineering as men?! Do you know how bad that is? He claimed at least a third of his engineering coworkers aren't as qualified to do their jobs. That is the definition of creating and unsafe and hostile work environment. How can his female coworkers trust his judgement on their peer reviews? How can female candidates expect to be judged fairly if he interviews them? The answer is they can't. If you can't be a part of the employee ecosystem, you have to go. Differences of politics is one thing, but codes of conduct exist for a reason.
- @fear-me you realize those aren't the memo author's actual opinions, but a strawman that Zunger built up in a blog post so he can publicly virtue signal by tearing it down, right?
Kind of disappointing how many supposedly intelligent people read that complete misrepresentation of a post, believe it wholeheartedly, and repeat it word for word.Aug 8, 2017 5
- BlackBerry FuckJerksSaying that he created an unsafe and hostile work space is a stretch. If women coworkers feel they can't trust his judgement because of his bias then they should remove him from those peer reviews or candidate interview loops. The firing was harsh and expected given that they found him in violation of the code of conduct
- Splunk tSJF67This guys deserves to get fired and probably will never get hired in tech. However, I am sure he has some nice job waiting for him at Breitbarb news or the Trump administration.
It seems that many white dudes are feeling upset about loosing some of their male and race privilege in a very fast evolving country. The issue of America's identity is front and center of this issue and reflective of our national politics.
As a white male, my advice to other white men who think along the same lines
- you can not force your warped opinion on 50% of the population. If you feel the need to debate an offensive opinion, the workplace is definitely not the right place.
- realize that our historical actions of denying women vote, treating them like cattle, making them sex objects, etc are ours to own and we need to do a lot to fix this. If you have daughters, you will understand this better than most.
- race: are ancestors are directly responsible for killing, enslaving, disenfranchising, and now demonizing entire communities of color (American Indians and African Americans). We have an awful and shameful history around this and something we still haven't acknowledged and apologized for. Time to figure out what is our role to pay for the sins of our fore fathers (it is just a matter of time when someone pens an article questioning the biological abilities of some race and making the case of some other race's natural superiority)
White people, I think some of us have truly lost our mind. Travel the world, leave your all inclusive resorts, and see the poverty and difficult circumstances that most of the world lives in. We have it incredibly well in the United States.
Let's stop whining, acknowledge our privilege, and be good citizens of the world. Privilege is not bad. Just something we need to be cognizant of. It helps us better understand issues facing others who may be less privileged.
Flagged by the community.
- Amazon rbfG56The guy who "published" it wasn't the one who shared it beyond Google, as far as I know. Once it got out, it unsurprisingly looked bad for Google, and the company was forced to do something about it because our culture gives a lot of attention to outrage and seems to reward attempts to show moral superiority.
However, the more respectable response would've been for Google to clarify that these were one employee's opinions and that they don't represent the company, but that Google employees are encouraged to hold diverse opinions and discuss them with their co-workers. They could have then clarified their position on the issues touched on by the memo, which would've had a much better chance of changing minds than firing him does.Aug 8, 2017 21
- New AtMN03He addressed male vs female in his manifesto. I'm definitely not buying into all of what was written, but playing devil's advocate... How is the lack of women in the tech industry different than the lack of men in the nursing, HR, or graphics design (and other design) industries? Are there diversity programs to get more men into those jobs? If not, why?
- nothing wrong with lobbying to get more of someone in a group.... "fighting" for it with discrimination to make up for the fact that your pet identity doesn't want to be there in the same numbers, is just silly. fighting for equal opportunity is important, fighting for equal outcomes is stupid.
- Facebook / Eng AwGK74How many of you people actually read the whole manifesto? Id like to hear any rebuttal to any of his core points... and I'm not looking for shit slinging, I want thought out responses that address his concerns.
- Airbnb eyemoreIt's amazing (and sad) to see how racism, sexism and conscious bias flows when you can hide behind anonymity. This "bravery" and self-righteousness disappears when you are no longer a handle on Blind.
- Uber 0TT0I don't agree with what he said but he shouldn't be fired, now no one would ever try to express their opinion at Google and that's very dangerous.
Google wants to claim they're an open company, so let him speak, you don't have to agree with him, you can even mock his opinion, it's your right, but let employees express their opinions internally without fear of repercussions... if anyone hurt the company's reputation that's the leakers
- The problem is that many employees expressed their disgust over the document. Some even expressed quitting unless HR took action. So you let him stay at the risk of having a lot of employees feeling disgusted by his actions? He knew what he was doing and the consequences it would carry. He just didn't give a fuck. Now he got fired and he deserved it. If he wanted to express an opinion he could've done it in a better way instead of writing a document saying that "biologically" women shouldn't be hired because they can't perform the work.
- Amazon / Eng whatthefuWHAT
This is so trash. Why are people calling it a "manifesto", and that it was "anti-diversity" , that's the most absurd shit I've seen all year.
People are demonizing an intelligent and what seemed to be a thoughtful and psychologically well-calibrated individual because he doesn't agree with them? What the fuck are people smoking? The dude's hypotheses make way more sense than the currently accepted theories
- Microsoft J0lyr0gerMost intelligent people completely agree with him, political correctness and race and gender quotas need to go. America is a meritocracy, not a communist utopia.
- JUVE Creative / Design SdLM87moreThing is his logic wasn't bogus. He was staying stuff that while not fitting the narrative is very sound thinking such as offering alternatives to bridge the diversity problem.
Half the people I know shouting him down though offer little to no reasonable response or worse haven't even read it.
Like the thoughts above are just "fuck this guy" well Assholes did you actually read it?Aug 8, 2017 4
- no, most intelligent people wouldn't (prive me wrong just like you prove your own statement)
and yes I read the whole thing. it is nothing more than his own opinion about what he considered to be studies and results, and his own view on what is worth opening to everyone and what is not worth training, how people on the left believe and how people on the right believe, how Google is unfair and how women like visual more than men and how women are not motivated and men, etc etc.
this paper will get at most a B in college classes in writing style but not contents accuracy. it is not convincing to most people with any managerial experience.
- Spotify / Product CJwB50He wrote a poorly worded, hugely distracting document that went into totally unnecessary tangents and put himself on a path that isolated himself from many of his very intelligent peers. Especially his intelligent and capable women peers.
His firing was appropriate and expected.
- Amazon LailaiMeritocracy my behind. Yet again a white male coder who failed 3 out of 3 objective coding tests in my interview loop because a somewhat senior (he is below my level) white male vouch for him with a strong hire and claimed he was nervous. I have been interviewing in tons of interview loops. Every time a strong hire was pulled to compensate for white male coder failing all objective tests, it had been 100% a white male vouching for another white male. Number of samples of anyone vouched for a POC woman with strong hire despite poor coding tests? 0. Also I hire for my company at MIT every year where we have an objective online coding tests for interns. Every year the female pass rate was near 100% and the male pass rate was near 50%. So how about them data?
- Pinterest eq0761I can't understand how intelligent, educated people think there is no fundamental difference between the sexes. Genetically we are wired to be different, and for good evolutionary reasons. The differences are known in some cases and largely unexplored in others, and of course, we can't ignore the fact that they have been somewhat codified in a historically patriarchal culture.
That said, if women are necessarily motivated out of a different sets of variables, those should be fairly recognized. As much as the same is true of men. No sex deserves a default privileged position. Nor should a sex be denied an inherent strength or weakness. Each person, individually, should be accounted for by their own strengths and weaknesses without prejudice for sex, race, philosophy or creed.
This mans firing was a result of intolerance and a unwillingness to be open minded in the face of dissent. Fuck google.
- Microsoft chownusBecause doing the compassionate thing is usually the right thing for society and the most obvious to intellectuals. But now we've hit a point where the intellectually compassionate are being taken advantage of and forced into an ideological battle of reparations. People are being forced into a corner where any criticism or question gets you labeled as alt right.
More diversity is the goal but with no clear definitions other than no white males, or in tech no Asians... I'm all for equal pay for the same job and equal opportunity, but passing up quality candidates because they won't get your diversity quota is no where near to equality.
- Cisco / Eng bored_catHe sure does. he could have shared it anonymously on medium or Reddit to start a discussion. the manner in which he shared his views is asking to be fired. Companies are at will employers. As a for profit company they cannot risk a hostile work environment. I think Google did the right thing. -- another woman in tech
- He actually had a lot of sources - they were not added to the Gizmodo, Motherboard or Recode articles of course:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.htmlAug 7, 2017 6
- Amazon / Other Jef BezosValid point like you cannot attribute all of the wage/gentler disparity to discrimination and sexism. There are other factors contributing to it as well.
Companies should not limited certain training/program only to underrepresented groups.
Different opinions should not be silenced.
- New LGIg86I mean, it's true that many Western, white women choose non-tech careers. For all I know, there could be some biology involved but the high rates of women in STEM in other countries suggest that it's more of a cultural issue. And reading many of the comments here.....small wonder. Who wants to deal with this crap, where so many people in your industry don't think you belong? Only people who really love what they do and are good at it.
Listen, as a female engineer, men and women can be good engineers. We share many of the same strengths. We share many of the same weaknesses. Sometimes they follow a trend. I've noticed that the areas where I struggle are areas where my male colleagues excel, and some of the places where they struggle are areas in which I excel. To deliver a quality product, you need to cover your bases. You need both. You need to diversify.
So it's totally fine to point out trends and note that there are general differences between men and women. It's not fine to insinuate that these difference mean that an entire gender is unfit for the job.
Of course Google fired him. In addition to the PR disaster, they had to let their female engineers know that they ARE valued, and that they DO want them to stay and that they DO have skills and perspectives that make the company stronger.
- Please educate yourselves. Evidence:
In this one there's evidence of differences of abilities and preferences between genders AT BIRTH (i.e. not cultural). Read carefully:
- Theres more but here's one: https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2016/02/18/study-shows-women-are-better-coders-but-only-when-gender-is-hidden?context=amp
Peer reviewed : https://peerj.com/preprints/1733.pdf
- ^ that has been debunked as flawed. They built a phony classifier to guess gender from usernames!! And didn't even make their dataset public for fear of being caught as wrong!
This comment was deleted by original commenter.
- He had a right to say what he did. And half of his peers at Google agreed. https://twitter.com/sonyaellenmann/status/894756561087746049
- Amazon Starikwhy are people happy about it? if it was the opposite - a conservative Company firing an employee for let's say sharing a manifesto on gender fluidity or how the company sucks because it doesn't have a balanced gender ratio, how would you react? this guy has some unsavory views. unless it can be demonstrated that those views are affecting his job or his attitude towards his co-workers, I don't see why he ought to be fired. disagreements should not be grounds for dismissal
PS: I am a liberal and I don't agree with him.
- Lyft qRrM26i like this comment because i can relate, but i don't really agree.
i worked for a conservative tech company in Utah. if i made a manifesto with my views on sexuality and religion, i may have been fired. if they didnt fire me, i would continue to defend my opinions.
i think googles action is generous to the people who are sick of hearing this viewpoint. the company just defended them.
i would rather see a solution where this one person could learn without being fired, but i don't see how that'd be better for the people google is defending.
im happy to see the🔥
- Coming from Europe, I can relate to the issue of women having a harder time to become senior executives in all sorts of large companies.
However, what is still a little beyond me is why it seems tech companies need to address a problem at the very end of the funnel (lack of female computer science engineers)? It doesn't seem to be the core problem that women have a hard time getting an engineering job, but much rather that there's a lack of female software engineers. Or am I seeing things wrong here?
Do we have so fewer women in tech because of discrimination, harassment or unequal pay? Or could it possibly be that women just aren’t as interested in technology-related work as men are? I think gender biased (childhood) education plays a role here, but apparently when it comes to life sciences there appears to be less of a gap. Is it ludicrous to think that it might be just choice ? I seriously doubt we'll ever see parity in all professions (think police, nursing, teaching, etc) and most importantly do we have to? Does it really mean there's injustice going on because we see less women in tech?
- Or, women from poorer countries prioritize a high paying job whereas women in rich western countries have the leisure to pursue their interests. It's a well studied trend that the more freedom a population has to pursue their interests, the more sex differences emerge.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153857Aug 8, 2017 7
- I think we can generally see that children in developing or more traditional countries are being encouraged to become doctors, lawyers or engineers over artists. With so many migrants in silicon Valley I wouldn't be surprised if you are more likely to see an Indian or Chinese female engineer.
Anyways, in western countries, it seems that the majority has become more inclined towards studying and working on the things that we are passionate about not what necessarily pays the most.Aug 8, 2017 3