This is severe yes, and they’re also making an example for future drug smugglers. There are no gray areas in drug smuggling. It always ends in the death penalty in Asian countries regardless of who, what, why.
- New / Eng😆 smileyCanadians and Americans don’t seem to understand how severe the consequences are for drug smuggling in Asian countries. It’s the reason why Asian countries don’t have as big of a drug problem as Western countries.
This is severe yes, and they’re also making an example for future drug smugglers. There are no gray areas in drug smuggling. It always ends in the death penalty in Asian countries regardless of who, what, why.
- When the US government breaks the law, the courts hold them accountable. At least mostly. Just today the courts ruled the government shouldn't ask citizenship on the census. That's judicial independence which never happens in china. Speaking of a snowflake which easily gets offended and riled up, you fit the bill.
- Oh they do? The blue striped mafia banding together to protect their own in each and every shooting death of unarmed or even mistaken civilians while the DA’s office refusing to prosecute and not a peep coming from the NRA or the helpless citizenry is called being held accountable? The Russian agent walking around free to serve cold burgers to sports teams is accountability? The Snowden revelations showing vast and far reaching breaches of trust and privacy resulting in warrants for the whistleblower instead of reforms of the perpetrators is accountability? List can go on and on. I feel pretty uncomfortable calling other kettles black.
- Courts hold accountability within the law. Courts have held up the law. Your grievances may be instances where most people feel something morally wrong occurred (myself included), but the NRA (for example) is generally lobbying within the law. Not liking the laws is different from not upholding them due to political direction.
- Oh they do now do they? How about due process from getting shot through the door by a cop that got the wrong house, and your own family needing to mop up the blood while the cop goes on with his job and life? What does the law say about this? What does the court do? What does the law say about high treason? How about unconstitutional invasion of privacy? Does the court do anything? If not, is it equally corrupt, weak, and exist only to oppress the common citizen?
- The US judicial system is not really independent. It is also influenced heavily by politics and money.
In this case, the prosecutor decided to appeal with new evidence suggesting the seriousness of the crime, and probably sought death penalty. It doesn’t really prove that the court was politically motivated. The penalty for >1kg drug trafficking is 15 years to death penalty so both sentences are within the law.
Even in the US there are some politically motivated prosecutors such as Mueller.
- Selling smartphone chips to Iran is aiding and abetting terrorists, I see. How about all the aiding and abetting of Saudi Arabia after they spawned the majority of the 9/11 hijackers? Ready to send the relevant administration to the firing squad or Guantanamo to teach a lesson too? Or maybe dismemberment by, say, a bone saw?
- Ahem, I think you have some terms mixed up.
Foreign investment = bidding for projects / involvement / deals
Colonization = what Europeans did in Asia / North America / South America / Africa. Show up with chains / slave hunters / polio blankets / opium and enslave or eradicate the indigenous population.
- The Chinese and Indians are also flooding silicon valley and we don’t call that colonization, do we? Are the Chinese pillaging local villages in Africa? Trading scalps of natives? Packing Africans on ships to send back home in chains?
Especially against the historical backdrop of these two countries having been victims of real colonization (I guess China only had to give up Hong Kong temporarily after being forcefed some grade A poppy seeds and having its front door kicked in), I’d say it’s a bit ironic to be drawing parallels.
- FWIW, I just looked up this documentary’s on wiki:
Empire of Dust is a 2011 German documentary directed by Bram Van Paesschen. The documentary follows two employees of the Chinese Railway Engineering Company (CREC): Lao Yang, manager of a Chinese mining company's logistics group, and his driver/interpreter Eddy, a Congolese who speaks Mandarin, as they work to rebuild a road connecting a mining site in Kolwezi to Lubumbashi, the capital of what was then Katanga Province. It is in the context of a trade deal between the People's Republic of China and the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Sounds markedly different from:
Population of Native California
- Yes the documentary displays difficulties they were having which leads one to today where they are sending over their own people.
Are you a Chinese nationalist or something? Stop spreading pro Chinese propaganda and educate yourself.
Also, they are literally putting muslims in concentration camps. Evil empire.
- Whether or not China is evil, the fact remains that this guy is getting the appropriate punishment as per their law.
This shouldn’t be news. Why didn’t anyone make a big deal with all the other foreigners and native Chinese citizens who regularly get a death sentence for drug crimes?
Follow the rules of the country or GTFO
- I’m inclined to end the conversation because you’ve taken a discussion about what constitutes colonialism to “yeah but they also did xyz hence everything I said about every topic is right”.
Concentration camps are evil and wrong regardless of who or where, not contesting that. But you’re bringing that up as a way to distract from your otherwise losing argument, and add to it thinly veiled personal attacks. I’m too old for this kindergarten level fight.
- US allies like Singapore and Saudi Arabia have laws like this as well.
Count the number of US allies.
- I have lived in China for just over a year, in Shenzhen and I've visited more of China than most Chinese. I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert on Chinese society, but I know more than most westerners and moreover I can identify moral right from wrong, which is really all I need to make an argument.
- Oh then my bad. Living in China for a year definitely makes you better than most Chinese since you've visited China more than most Chinese already. And of course, you know moral right and wrong, that's the key point. You have proven to be the surpiror Westerner that has critical thinking and represents justice.
Bless your heart.
- Microsoft SvVc78It's retaliation and nothing else. Retaliation against Canada holding CFO, meng for deporting to US
- Amazon BlueAvianOn the one hand, if you commit a crime in a certain country, you should expect to be punished according to its laws, regardless of if they're draconian.
On the other hand, you'd have to be blind to think that this move is not calculated by China specifically to gain leverage in the Meng situation.
- And by that standard, Meng's arrest was probably politically motivated as the US government has effectively mostly banned Huawei in use 5G infrastructure in the US and is actively encouraging its allies to do so. Iran sanctions were a convenient legal cover to gain some leverage of some type.
- Exactly. The US has had evidence against various Chinese executives for their transgressions dating back often a decade or more, but has not acted on the majority of them. It is equally clearly evident that Meng’s arrest is a conveniently timed event to aid the trade war. Let’s put aside the hypocrisy and face the truth, shall we? We leverage what we have to benefit our country, and they play the same game. Claiming moral superiority where none exists is pretty shameful.Jan 154
- If you don't think the Huawei arrest is politically motivated given all the surrounding evidence and the fact that no other executives have ever been prosecuted for Iran sanctions even though there are probably many many culpable parties given the fact that dozens upon dozens of companies have paid billions of fines in Iran sanctions then you are delusional. Rule of law comes with some discretion believe it or not, just following the law no matter what isn't exactly a good legal philosophy and law professors here will teach that and say that.
- Actually it seems like no executive has been arrested for vuilating Iran sanctions, can you please give me case below.
This article contains information on all the companies convicted with violating Iran sanctions and who never had any executive personally liable for such:
It seems like some HP executives like Carly Florina also could have been accused of the exact same crime as Meng but no arrest:
- Meng is arrested for committing bank fraud while dealing with financial institutions operating under US jurisdiction. The bank fraud was in furtherance of violating sanctions, but that wasn't what she was arrested for. It seems pretty clear to me that she is likely guilty of that crime (though we'll let the case work through the justice system). The Canadian court system is about as independent and fair as any in the world, and Canada has little reason to do favors to Donald Trump, whom the overwhelming majority of Canadians despise. Before this incident (and Chinese political response to it), Canada was trying to make overtures and become more friendly with China as a counterbalance to US and mistreatment under Trump. Now Canadians are asking themselves who is worse: Trump or the Chinese government. Most are coming to the conclusion that the abuse from Trump is tempered by the court system and democratic system in the US (and his term in office is time limited) whereas the Chinese government has no checks and balances. ytg6t is right. China is becoming more rich and powerful, but the overconfidence and arrogance of the government under Xi is not going to help China.
- HP knew it was selling to a third party who was doing so, thereby breaking the law, so they could have been prosecuted for it and perhaps convicted. It's pretty clear they violated Iran sanctions and the fact that no prosecutors ever looked into it shows the hypocrisy at play here.
And secondly stop calling me Chinese you idiot, I am a white American. Just because someone is critical of the US government, that doesn't make them a foreign agent or a citizen of the country you are criticizing.
- Of course, but that's not the point I am making here. I am criticizing the *prosecutorial discretion* by saying that the likely political motivations behind it are stupid and wrongheaded because one could most likely have found crimes of a similar nature if the government used its *prosecutorial discretion* more broadly.
I don't even want to get into a discussion on how the Iran sanctions are idiotic and immoral as well but that's for another day.
- This guy's a convicted drug trafficker in Canada and was locked up. If he's dumb enough to traffic a couple hundred kilos of narcos in a country with capital punishment over 50g, I don't see why would every one is saying it's a retaliation, are we rooting for drug lords now?
- And that have you worked up? You want justice?
You want the drug trafficker to be released? Or sent back to jail for 15years? Or is it that you just feel angry because all this news that's anti Saudi, anti Russia and anti China is actually making you rage inside anytime you read about those countries and people because you think they are evil and unjust, but you represent fairness and justice?
Gimme a break with this world police bullshit. It's all a game and we the people are just pawns. The more you buy into all this news and triggering stories, the more you are easy to control.
This comment was deleted by original commenter.
- Ytg, I don’t disagree with you but Korea was not much better during 1980s. I am old enough to remember anyone who criticizes government (even conversation with taxi drivers) was disappeared for eternity. Political activists were tortured and jailed. My parents made sure I don’t talk anything about government. Government used mafia to silent people and remove any people who opposed to government policies. The opposition party didn’t have power and the leaders were jailed and kidnapped. The presidents were former military leaders from about 1960-1993. People still elected the president from the party in the election of 1993-1994. It takes long time before its people can be civilized. Surprisingly most of uneducated people don’t care. They just vote for someone who bribed them thinking they need to express gratitude or they will get something in return. Educated people are very small percentage. Also as long as economy goes well, majority of people don’t care much until it happens to them.
China is most likely worse than S Korea was in 1980s as it is still a communist country with horrible history but I would not apply the same standards for now. Everyone knows China monitors people and ruling party is invincible with enormous corruption and double standard. My friends would not take their family though they were required to work in China for multiple years citing it is not a livable country. It is not easy to chat with them either because of blocked apps here and there.
- Real great insight thanks for sharing. I want to throw out that the PAP in Singapore have been criticized for exercising similar programs, not as hardcore as extrajudicial killing but more like held indefinitely without trial, for enemies of the state and criminals. Yet the people were largely happy with this, especially in light of pulling off its economic miracle. Yea you’ll find dissenting voices if you look hard enough, you can find dissenting voices for climate change too.
- And those that hold up Taiwan as some sort of beacon of freedom - the island was ruled by a military dictatorship for 40 years before slowly transitioning to a democracy in the late 80s. During its dictatorship it committed all sorts of atrocities and crimes especially in the early days, but that party (KMT) is still a popular party today. What’s more - the west gave full support to the dictatorship in Taiwan even in its darkest days, morality be damned.
The world isn’t that black and white, unlike depictions in the Hollywood propaganda.
- True, but the criticisms here are launched from our self-professed moral high ground. The foundation of said high ground seems rather shaky. Even in this particular case, going to the root - the embargo on Iran - the history of Iran is actually quite fascinating, and the role of British and US interference is less than savory. Did you know that they had a democracy once upon a time before the CIA was sent into topple it? For the interests of British Petroleum? Yes, that BP.
In the grand scheme of things, laws everywhere are made and broken by governments to suit their interests. The difference is perhaps that China has a far inferior PR department that is less capable of rationalizing away the offenses using ideals like “exporting democracy”.
- Not sure at all actually. AFAIK China hasn’t done a lot of invading or toppling of democracies of other countries on the other side of the world, despite the alarming rhetoric around Taiwan.
Also, I’m sorry to have to disagree that things like destroying Iran’s democratic system leading to an oppressive dictatorship for decades and then painting them the villain to be righteously embargoed is just a minor “imperfection”.
- Guess it’s just a case of everyone being assholes, then. Can’t we just play the game as is and acknowledge that we’re all greedy bastards willing to ruin other people’s lives to further our interests? Would take the hypocrisy out of it and be much easier on the conscience. Although, that does make it harder to convince 18 year olds to throw their lives away in some desert 10000 miles away from home.
- > China is directly responsible for the genocide in Cambodia and invaded Vietnam when they moved to stop it
The situation is definitely more complex, but it's also fascinating.
On the Chinese side: After unification, Vietnam officially sides with the Soviet Union, which is a problem because of the Sino-Soviet Split means that China and the USSR are rivals. China expected Vietnam to fall under its sphere of influence and gave the north lots of weapons and even sent soldiers to die for their cause. It didn't help that Vietnam started a series of skirmishes in disputed land with China to start capturing more land.
On the Vietnam Side: Vietnam unifies after a very hard fought war of independence, winning against the superpower of the time, and has a real chance at uniting Indochina, annexing cambodia, laos, thailand, etc. In short it starts flexing. Also China has historically been invading for thousands of years so it's in no hurry to become a Chinese vassal state.
China gets nervous about being sandwiched by the USSR and a united indochina to the south.
Vietnam and Cambodia are historical rivals, China's support of the Khmer Rouge is something of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", which is a staple in international diplomacy. Even the US practices it.
Anyways China wants to invade Vietnam to open a second front and prevent Vietnam from annexing cambodia, but is afraid of a full blown war with the USSR. It actually comes to the USA for help. America sends aerial reconnaissance photos, reassuring China that Soviet troops are all too far away to respond quickly.
This allows Chinese troops to invade Vietnam, right up to the gates of the capital (taking heavy losses by the way, losing to Vietnamese non-professional but experienced militia), forcing Vietnam to divert troops away from Cambodia, and then China withdraws before Soviet intervention can happen. The icing on the cake is that this whole maneuver brings China closer to the US, and America sells China some black hawk helicopters for good measure.
Anyways, nobody really looks good if you look at it in detail: all the nations are simply looking to extend their power or create safety.
Step back, look close enough at the world and you won't see good or evil, just power and rationalization.
- China wasn’t particularly enthusiastic about supporting KR, almost like its relationship with North Korea today. It’s just safer to have NK on the border than a US allied SK.
By the way the US also sided with China in its support for KR in various U.N. resolutions. The US of course wasn’t evil or anything, they just did it to continue opposing Vietnam. Same reason they helped China invade Vietnam: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
There’s no justification in the moral sense, in fact there is no moral sense since like I said foreign policy is driven by interests and power, not morality.Jan 170
- Can you share some of your reading materials?
Stepping back from the KR I don’t disagree with your positions when phrased as “the US should ensure that China does not become a dominant power with a different value system than ours”.
Stepping back even from China, the only thing I disagree about is the idea that there is a moral absolute right. Moral arguments are appeals to emotion, and lead to strong agreement with people who share your values and ideological warfare with people who don’t.Jan 170
- All great discussions. I totally disagree about Iraq. There was no evidence of massively destructive weapon but still invaded anyway for internal political reasons (war against other country united the people and strengthen the support for the ruling party). There was even a survey to how Americans blindly believed they found evidence of such weapon. Fast forward, US fucked up Iraq which was stabilizing the region. That created ISIS and crisis in Middle East these days. Sure Sadam was a dictator but applying democracy directly usually creates more problems than solving them when not applied in a correct way. Not this region is like post world war after European fucked up Africa. You gotta understand the people in the region first before forcing your standard.Jan 180
- Intel (⌐■_■)Cya. After they put a bullet in his head, they'll charge his family for the bullet. Then the Canadians will apologize. Man up Trudeau.
- As they should. The Canadian judicial system failed to protect its own society from an unreformed and unrepentant repeat drug trafficking offender by only giving him a 16 month sentence back at home, and failed the international community by then issuing a passport to said convict so that he is able to smuggle a quarter of a ton of meth elsewhere. If anything, China should be sending a bill for legal costs as well.Jan 156
- Dunno why white lib boys want the whole world to have the same principles as them - this is diversity, white libs - deal with it. Also, while I have no fondness for Western conservatives, at least they get that different cultures have different values and preferences.
- Because China is more populous than the US. That presents a problem for US economic leadership, but doesn’t change the fact that the average Chinese person is poor and likely less educated and therefore less likely to make good choices in a democracy where everyone’s vote counts the same.
- I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume the uneducated peasant can't make a rational decision in voting. But even then, salary data in China is dated and trailing the real numbers. The 500M Chinese working in tier-1 and tier-2 cities are making decent wages. Given lower taxation (and pervasive tax evasion) in China and lower cost of living, on a purchase parity basis, a heck of a lot of Chinese have enough wealth to live a decent life. The older rural generation, living off the land, often have a subsistence lifestyle; though their kids may be rich. A good friend of mine makes approx 1M RMB/yr (in a big city), whereas her parents live on less than 5000RMB per year. Though she offers to pay for anything, they are frugal and reject most of her help. Definitely a transition time in China. That said her parents are intelligent, if uneducated, and do already vote at the village level. I have no doubt they could vote rationally if china's political system were democratized.
- White lib boys, stop bleating on blind. Don't universalize your value system - it isn't universal. Do you value diversity, a virtue you consistently espouse? Then leave the rest of the world the fuck alone - we don't want to, and won't be like you.
And read this paper:
People are different and have different values - deal with it. Don't try to eliminate cultural diversity.
- Chinese legal system is always politically motivated. The penalties are harsh and the court can show some leniency at their discretion.
In this case, the penalty should have always been death sentence. But because he is Canadian he only got 15 years. Also most drug dealers get “death sentence with reprieve” which is effectively a life imprisonment.
In the retrial, he was not given any leniency at all so he got the death sentence.
- Collective Health MaggyLThe reason for low drug use in Asia is due to genetics. Asians typically have forward thinking minds.
- It has nothing to do with genetics. You are using the same base used by Hitler, KKK and what not. 3rd generation Asians in US have similar stat to white Americans in most of the categories including math. Similarly if you look at Asian countries where they follow American model, they become more like US in every area (Korea, Taiwan). Also, white Russians are surprisingly similar to Chinese if you can remove the colored glasses.
- I always see "harsher penalties do not work" but it's not like China has anything else preventing drug smuggling.
It’s one of the best medications known for weight loss and adhd.