Help chose - Amazon pivot with severance or leave at dev-list if you have another good offer?

Amazon pssst7
May 12 71 Comments

I am in dev-list. Manager said that he will be starting pivot soon. I have no intention of staying at Amazon or ever coming back to Amazon. I also an offer from another company.

Does anyone know what is the severance for 8 year experience at Amazon? Is it worth siging pivot documents to take severance or would you prefer just leaving while on dev list? I am financially sound and don't need the severance money.

Second question - how are other amazon piped people doing in their career now? I am a bit down and seeking some validation from other people.

Yoe: 8 (all at Amazon)
Tc: 290k
SDE3 in Seattle

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TOP 71 Comments
  • Amazon
    🍪cutter

    Amazon

    BIO
    Op
    🍪cuttermore
    8 years at Amazon!? That’s pretty commendable. Take severance and leave. Your eligibility to rehire is taken away until you are in dev list. Ask for expedited pivot, your experience is much valued outside.
    May 13 5
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      So if someone is put into Dev list, and later leave, marked as "no-rehire" forever?
      May 13
    • Amazon
      🍪cutter

      Amazon

      BIO
      Op
      🍪cuttermore
      Yes. Initially you could get on pivot and get rehires after a year, however, even now they have changed it as well - getting on pivot also marks ineligibility to rehire.
      May 13
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      What is pivot?
      May 13
    • Amazon pssst7
      OP
      Is there a downside to talking severance? Like for future background checks, etc.
      May 13
    • Amazon
      🍪cutter

      Amazon

      BIO
      Op
      🍪cuttermore
      No. This doesn’t show up in background checks.
      May 13
  • Amazon / Eng THmu30
    What happened? Stayed at Amz for 8 years, got to sde3 and then pipped, wtf.
    May 13 2
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      SDE3's are also get PIPed? Seems brutal culture.
      May 13
    • Dropbox puts&calls
      Why would sde3s be untouchable? Could be newly promoted, bad projects or new manager among other things.
      May 13
  • Microsoft Refstv
    had a friend who was pip-ed at amazon now staff at google. Don't let anybody else shake your faith in yourself. But make sure you learn what from what went wrong at amazon. Tomm is new day, be a better version of yourself, regardless of whether things are good or bad and GL!
    May 19 1
  • Amazon / Mgmt
    mClj86

    Amazon Mgmt

    PRE
    FedEx, Avalara
    BIO
    people need truth for career decisions. Exclusivity and secrecy are toxic. Yet rules are ok and boundaries make us feel safe. The difference Is communication!!!
    mClj86more
    Also, amazon recently changed the rule for rehire. People who took less for the options to be rehired and being told sorry, we changed the rule, it’s retroactive and you can’t come back
    May 23 7
    • Amazon ChivalryAF
      ^^They do not let you know. You get blacklisted if you quit or leave at any point that you’re on the dev list, PIP, or PIVIOT Severance.

      Basically the only way to get off the blacklist is to get off the dev list or if you go into a PIP and win (highly unlikely.)

      The problem is, you used to be able to just take a severance and leave and you’d only be blacklisted for a year. However, they recently changed the policy and now it’s a lifetime ban. Unfortunately this applies to people who were previously told they could come back.

      Good old amazon.
      Jun 13
    • Lifetime ban!! That's brutal. 2/3 years could be enough. At which point can someone take the severance and leave? I believe the sequence is Dev list -> pivot -> pip. Is that correct? If someone does not leave voluntarily and eventually get fired, will still get severance?
      Jun 13
    • Amazon ChivalryAF
      Yeah it’s brutal. It’s like getting caught with weed when you’re 14 and you get a lifetime ban from jobs. Lol.

      Yeah PIVOT is just the name of the process. The way Amazon named it is stupid.

      Dev list (probation list that only your manager knows about. You are monitored during this time and they secretly build a case on you) -> PIVOT process which gives you 5 days to decide between 3 options.
      1. PIP
      2. Appeal
      3. Severance

      You can lose the appeal and still get severance but it’s way less.

      People used to think you can quit the company before you go into pip (while you were only on a dev list) but that also gets you a permanent ban.

      The worst part is that they used to tell people you can take a severance and it’s only a temp ban, but then they changed the rule and were like “LOL GET OWNED. YOURE ALL PERMABANNED”
      Jun 13
    • Thanks for clearly describing the entire process. If someone chooses PIP, how long is the PIP period?
      Jun 13
    • Amazon ChivalryAF
      No problem. It’s usually a month. Some people appeal so they can buy time to find a new job as it takes like 4 weeks.
      Jun 13
  • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
    What's the order? Dev list -> pivot -> pip -> fired ?
    May 13 7
    • Amazon
      seattle'd

      Amazon

      PRE
      Amazon, Salesforce, Google, Microsoft, Apple
      seattle'dmore
      Dev-list and PIP are different. But yea those who are in dev-list (10%), 6% end up on PIP and almost all of them end up leaving AMZN with rare exceptions.
      May 13
    • Amazon pssst7
      OP
      seattle'd - any downsides of taking severance? I heard you need to sign a bunch of documents
      May 13
    • Amazon
      seattle'd

      Amazon

      PRE
      Amazon, Salesforce, Google, Microsoft, Apple
      seattle'dmore
      If we quit in dev-list or PIP status, we're not eligible for re-hire in future. I don't think any downside to severence. It is better to resign than terminated, so your background screening is all clear. And leave on happy terms with mgr, so he can help you with any references.
      May 13
    • Amazon pssst7
      OP
      Do you think there is a chance that taking severance will affect my background checks in the future? I will need to sign some documents for that. Also I will definitely leave on good terms with my manager
      May 13
    • Amazon
      seattle'd

      Amazon

      PRE
      Amazon, Salesforce, Google, Microsoft, Apple
      seattle'dmore
      I would talk to an HR and my manager for confirmation, as of 2019. As much I know, if you resign in PIP, your background screening is fine.
      May 13
  • New / Eng
    10yoe250k

    New Eng

    PRE
    Google
    10yoe250kmore
    Brutal!
    May 13 0
  • Google topCon
    8 years them pivot? Very unusual.
    May 13 2
  • Amazon
    seattle'd

    Amazon

    PRE
    Amazon, Salesforce, Google, Microsoft, Apple
    seattle'dmore
    Wow!!! 8 YOE at AMZN. And dev-listed 😮
    May 13 0
  • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
    OP, which option did you choose?
    May 17 8
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      Thanks. Wish you all the best! Where are you going? How difficult was it to land another job?
      May 18
    • Amazon pssst7
      OP
      Thanks! I was able to get multiple offers. Once you get out of self pity zone, it becomes easier. Tell your friend to take a few days off to cool down before starting preparation. Is your friend at MS? Also i feel it is easier to get another job if you already have a job
      May 18
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      Friend is in Dev List at Amazon. On H1b which makes things difficult.
      May 18
    • Amazon / Eng DeepObsess
      Why did you not get the severance? I asked for pivot to get the free money then go to my new job the following week
      May 19
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      How much severance did you get? 2 months' salary?
      May 19
  • Amazon ChivalryAF
    The severance is 3 months of base pay regardless of how long you’ve been there. At least that’s what I’ve witnessed.

    I knew a guy there for 5 years and he only got 3 months base pay.
    Jun 13 2
    • Who get severance? Anyone that is put into Dev List/PIP/Pivot, can get severance?
      Jun 13
    • Amazon ChivalryAF
      Yeah so it works like this.

      1. Dev list comes first and is a probation period. Most of the time you won’t know you’re in it. It’s like a shit list.

      2. After some time on the dev list, the manager will meet with you and say he’s putting you in a PIVOT program. You have 3 options at this point:

      A. Engage in a PIP where you are given impossible goals. If you don’t meet these in a month you’re fired. If you do meet them, you escape the whole process. However you still have it on your company record so you can kiss your career at amazon bye bye.

      B. Appeal the whole thing. This never works and is just there to make the employees feel like they have a chance. If you lose the appeal, you get the option to still take a severance, but the severance package is lower if you lose an appeal.

      C. Outright accept a severance and get fired/voluntarily quit. You get the most money this way.

      If you leave or quit at any point then you’re blacklisted. If you take a severance and voluntarily leave, you’re also blacklisted.
      Jun 13
  • Amazon ChivalryAF
    Why would you want to get rehired at a place that doesn’t value you?
    May 13 2
    • Amazon aspie
      I will come up in a reference check if another company calls Amazon.
      May 14
    • Amazon ChivalryAF
      ^^^it doesn’t. They simply confirm the working dates. They don’t even mention if you were fired. I’ve extensively researched this and asked HR.
      May 15
  • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
    What's the difference between Dev list & Pivot?
    May 13 1
    • Google topCon
      Dev list = means you suck and prevents you from transferring to another team

      Pivot = when your manger goes golfing with your balls
      May 13
  • Snapchat eeXB43
    it is for the better
    May 13 0
  • Amazon squak_01
    sign the pivot and take the money... same situation as you, now have 5 offers.. evaluating. so you will be ok.. dont worry if you have intention to ever go back (like me) take the severance.. its 3 months pay
    May 20 6
    • New / Eng
      10yoe250k

      New Eng

      PRE
      Google
      10yoe250kmore
      Whout you be so kind to share your TC and level as well?
      May 20
    • Amazon / Eng DeepObsess
      How is the severance calculated?
      May 22
    • Amazon / Mgmt
      mClj86

      Amazon Mgmt

      PRE
      FedEx, Avalara
      BIO
      people need truth for career decisions. Exclusivity and secrecy are toxic. Yet rules are ok and boundaries make us feel safe. The difference Is communication!!!
      mClj86more
      They changed the rule about rehire and made it retroactive. I witnessed first hand when I tried to rehire someone in accordance with their exit deal. Amazon said “sorry we changed that rule and it is retroactive. You are not eligible for rehire”. I’m a 6 year veteran. My boss (who is high level former CEO at different company) just left for a well known company that may or may not also be in cloud, search and other businesses
      May 23
    • Amazon / Mgmt
      mClj86

      Amazon Mgmt

      PRE
      FedEx, Avalara
      BIO
      people need truth for career decisions. Exclusivity and secrecy are toxic. Yet rules are ok and boundaries make us feel safe. The difference Is communication!!!
      mClj86more
      I’m getting the hell away from this company as quickly as possible. If you have vested your offer, find a new home
      May 23
    • Microsoft ~}{#%€|_%*
      What's the current rule for re-hire eligibility?
      May 23
  • Deloitte broadway74
    What happened? Do you have a good network of ppl? After 8 years seems odd
    May 13 3
    • Amazon pssst7
      OP
      I have built a good network of people here. Had a few arguments with my manager, I think probably that lead to this
      May 13
    • Deloitte broadway74
      Otherwise, has it been a good job or a nightmare like others insinuate? Also sad that after 8 years this is happening to you. I’m sorry :(
      May 13
    • New / Eng
      10yoe250k

      New Eng

      PRE
      Google
      10yoe250kmore
      Ah... You thought that you actually matter! Don't worry, it would be a good lesson for you.
      May 13
  • Amazon / Mgmt
    mClj86

    Amazon Mgmt

    PRE
    FedEx, Avalara
    BIO
    people need truth for career decisions. Exclusivity and secrecy are toxic. Yet rules are ok and boundaries make us feel safe. The difference Is communication!!!
    mClj86more
    I’m in the same spot. Two promos last year. I’m 6 years in. Leadership turnover. I’m knocked down from 6 mgr to 6 IC. How do i get money? Through pivot only?
    May 23 2
    • Microsoft ~}{#%€|_%*
      2 promos in the same year? Thats quite unheard of.
      May 23
    • New / Eng
      10yoe250k

      New Eng

      PRE
      Google
      10yoe250kmore
      Could you please elaborate on 2 promos?
      May 23
  • Amazon adc963
    You can no longer challenge the pivot, just the decision at the end of a pip.

    Ask for the expedited severance, I'm sure your hr team would be willing to work with you on that.
    May 19 1
    • Microsoft vxefcdrvsw
      How much is the severance?
      May 19
  • Amazon FVpn08
    Take the money and your manager already decided you are replaceable.
    Jun 13 0
  • LinkedIn
    troli

    LinkedIn

    PRE
    Google
    troli more
    Please wait for pip and take the 💴. 8 years is a multiplier it is two times your monthly salary x8
    Jun 12 0
  • Don’t be Surprised if you get put on a black list.. I’ve heard Amazon can be pretty shady and screws over employees. No matter how long many months/years you have. And no lawyer will take on any case against them...sad they can get away with it.
    May 29 0