Immigration

Dec 26, 2017 168 Comments

I am curious about Americans view on legal immigration - especially the ones against it. Immigrants have been such as asset to this community and I feel the backlash towards legal immigrant community has been due to other systemic factors and govt failures wrt to education and healthcare. Economic distress leading to populist uprising. Some facts we all know are true
1. US is an aging population (like Canada and other Western Europe countries) Demographers are freaking out as it reached its historic low in July this year. It means US needs immigrants and productive young workforce so that it can sustain its taxes, medicare & social security benefits (meant only for citizens - very conditional for immigrants). Legal immigrants fill that gap well. If that is stopped, quite obvious Greece will happen in 20 years. Do you want your SS and MC to be screwed in 20 years?
2. Legal immigrants contribute upto 1 billion of social security and medicare taxes. 37% of silicon valley workers are immigrants. Not only do they pay high taxes but also contribute to trickle down economy since they call US their home.
3. The best and the brightest get attracted to American dream. How will US benefit if they give the message “well US doesnt care and you are not welcome”?
4. 40% colleges have already seen a dip in their international admissions this year. Reasons being anti immigrant sentiment coupled with competition from Canada & Australia. Is that good?
5. How will stopping/curbing legal immigration create more jobs? Why wont profit mongers like Fb/Google just move jobs to location outside US with better talent and low pay? We see that, dont we? When an employee’s visa expire in big companies, the employee is transferred to Canada/China/India, have never seen that position being backfilled in US. US loss - point 2 above. Also, there are enough jobs for everyone and unemployment rates are dropping.
6. America has been the country of immigrants and has benefitted tremendously. Do you want that definition to change with protectionist and non competitive policies?

P.S: Lets for a moment pass the arguments on legal immigration abuse. No doubt that it should be fixed.

Just interested in big picture from your perspective if legal immigration is stopped/curbed. Should not Americans come together to fix more systemic policy gaps in higher college education (high school dropouts cannot be product managers in Fb, can they?)and medical instead of backlashing legal immigrants?

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TOP 168 Comments
  • Oracle P:3dfEr
    Republicans or trump supporters want to allow legal immigration as long as you are white. That is the current reality.
    Dec 26, 2017 13
    • Oracle Iiii88888
      There are too many hyper emotional irrational immigrants on blind to have a rational, civil, and honest discussion about legal immigration.

      They are blinded by their emotions and self interest. It has placed them into a position where legal immigration is a binary issue.

      Either you are for lots and lots of legal immigration, OR you're 100% against it (and you're racist because you only want white people).
      There is no in between.

      And this is obviously a completely irrational and unreasonable position.

      I voted for Trump and would do it again.
      I mostly support his positions on immigration.

      And I think our immigration system is totally fucked, and needs to be massively reformed.
      H1B needs to be drastically reformed.
      Highest wages should be given top priority.
      Minimum wage should be 100k.
      H1B should NEVER be approved for entry level positions nor for level 1 or level 2 wages.
      All H1Bs should be direct hires - consultancies are banned from using H1B.

      The US immigration should only be merit based... Based on a points system.
      no more diversity visa
      no more chain migration

      I support immigration to the US 100%, without regard to race.
      Buy there must be smart and measured immigration policy, and it should always be for the best interest of the US.

      White, black, or brown -- the merit based immigration policy should pay no regard to an individual's race.

      The interests of immigrants should never ever ever be placed above the interests of citizens.

      The interests of citizens should ALWAYS have higher priority.

      Please point out to me which points above are unreasonable or racist.
      And why.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Oracle P:3dfEr
      You lost me on voting trump. Voting trump makes you a racist. Period. You can’t just pick some of his politics and ignore others. You, in my book, a pure racist. I know you won’t care.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Microsoft seemsfastr
      @P:3dfEr, you are the hardcore racist here. You seem so full of hatred. The fact that you believe 100% of Trump supporters and Republicans want only whites to be around is blindly ignorant
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Oracle Iiii88888
      @P:3
      Hahaha


      Case in point.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Amazon / Product FuckObama
      Those comments on Haiti and Nigeria were from 1 unnamed source at the meeting and a 2nd unnamed source who heard about it. Don't fall for unverified stories so easily.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • Amazon / Eng
    Hooliganss

    Amazon Eng

    BIO
    Engineer at AWS
    Hooliganssmore
    People are against legal immigration?
    Dec 26, 2017 12
    • Oracle 08bggdt
      Agreed.
      AND adjusted for inflation.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Amazon 🥓 lover
      A points system shouldn't only look at employment and salary. Points should be given for:

      - being young (under 35)
      - bringing young children with you
      - every degree completed: bach, master, phd
      - extra points for a US degree
      - extra points for a worldwide top 100 college
      - fluency with English
      - having relatives in the US
      - having immediate family in the US
      - having an American act as a sponsor
      - having 5+ years of professional experience
      - having US work experience
      - having a job offer
      - having an offer with a high salary
      - being a member of a desired occupation

      Award points for all those things, weighed appropriately, and then stack rank by points and award visas to the people at the top.

      A professional with family in the US is more desirable than one without, somebody offering to cover the cost of any welfare in the first seven years demonstrates a safety net, and so on. Somebody with advanced degrees in a desired field but no current job offer may be a better addition then someone with less education but who somehow got as higher salary offer.

      But all these factors should be added together and visas awarded to the best, or to everyone who gets more points than some cutoff threshold.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      I think the top 100 college thing, which is also super subjective, also becomes irrelevant if they have a well paying job offer. Sounds good though.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Amazon 🥓 lover
      Actually it doesn't because the top 100 college guy might work in non tech and yet be a better addition to the US than a highschool dropout who studied leetcode and got into Facebook.

      For example many scientific researchers are paid less than software developers. Salary is not the only measure of worth.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Google / Eng
      eYiX63

      Google Eng

      PRE
      Airbnb
      eYiX63more
      They should raise the minimum salary for H-1 visas to 200k. Most larger companies can afford that
      Dec 27, 2017
  • SAP Vegasli
    Good to see everyone in favor of legal immigration. However a reform is much needed esp to contain the abuse. Wonder what are your views on spousal GCs? About a quarter of all GCs goto immigrants who married citizens. They are not necessarily skilled or pay taxes like a lot of high skilled legal immigrants do for years!
    Dec 30, 2017 62
    • Amazon / Eng
      Hooliganss

      Amazon Eng

      BIO
      Engineer at AWS
      Hooliganssmore
      5 deleted, 10 comments.
      Jan 2, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng
      Hooliganss

      Amazon Eng

      BIO
      Engineer at AWS
      Hooliganssmore
      6 deleted, 11 comments.
      Jan 2, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng
      Hooliganss

      Amazon Eng

      BIO
      Engineer at AWS
      Hooliganssmore
      7 deleted, 11 comments.
      Jan 2, 2018
    • Amazon eek a 🐁
      ^^^ troll still refusing to learn economics

      No comments are being deleted, I just keep moving this one to the bottom.
      Jan 2, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng
      Hooliganss

      Amazon Eng

      BIO
      Engineer at AWS
      Hooliganssmore
      8/13
      Jan 2, 2018
  • Apple GuerreroSt
    Because:
    (1) Not all legal immigration is people who have valuable skills. The diversity lottery hands 50,000 green cards every year. The only requirement is that applicants have finished high school. Wtf?

    (2) 70% of legal immigrants use family connections rather than being evaluated directly on their merit. While obviously people should be able to bring their spouse and kids with them, there should be restrictions on other types of relatives.

    (3) The legal H-1B system is being abused a lot. There are basically no repercussions as long as you pay a salary of $60K which is hilariously low. See the Disney and Southern California Edison layoffs, for example.

    (4) People who are waiting for green cards, and currently on H-1B’s, have difficulty switching jobs. If a significant minority does not have the freedom to switch jobs, it depresses wages for everyone.
    Dec 26, 2017 11
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      I get it. You support a hypothetical version of immigration that works perfectly and only racists can possibly be against.

      You won’t be able to make immigration work unless you’re willing to acknowledge all its effects in the real world, good and bad. Go back to tumblr and twitter.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Cisco / Eng Mylady
      The point of the visa is to be temporary. Would you like your 80 years old mother that requires care to go back to a different country? Germany has a similar immigration policy and I know quite a few talented engineers who preferred US because they needed an opportunity to bring their parents over when they age. And I know a couple of Indian families who had to go back to India and take their kids away from their schools and friends, because they couldn't bring parents over due to the long wait. This is an important factor and as OP mentioned there is a competition for the top talent. Top talented people can be paid a lot but they won't be able to buy their parents a greencard, there is just no way for that. Similarly with the salary cap: 100K sounds reasonable for software jobs. But what about post doctoral jobs? They don't pay as much yet it is critical for US to be on the cutting edge in science.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      As for parents, it’s easy to create a visa classification for them to live with their kids in the US. This should be done. The Republican-proposed RAISE act proposes one, even.

      Post-doctoral jobs qualify for EB-2 NIW’s or potentially EB-1’s. They also qualify for cap-exempt H-1B’s if they work at a university or a nonprofit such as OpenAI.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Walmart IgVY23
      There are thousands of h1b fraud visas floating around, that’s what ruins it for the folks who work hard and want to stay
      Dec 27, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      ^ exactly. If you think legal immigration is a good thing, you should call out abuse to continue defending the integrity of the system in the public eye. Otherwise it will be voted out.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • New / Product
    Billybaby

    New Product

    BIO
    Brick n Mortar retail
    Billybabymore
    Benefits of immigration are always seen in the long run. The government and most companies (except the ones who are pro-immigration) are looking only at short run benefits, such as cost-cutting for profitability, winning rural American vote banks etc.
    Dec 26, 2017 6
    • Microsoft Facts
      How is it cost cutting when my employer pays me over 150,000 in addition to all the legal fees which typically run over $10,000 every 3 years
      Dec 26, 2017
    • eBay Deeamr
      ^ becoz you generate 10x that amount as revenue for the company, need not give you big raises and will be held captive to the company due to draconian immigration rules. Big win in the long term.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Microsoft Facts
      I don't know, I get good raises. And as for the revenue generation part, the same can be said about citizens.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      ^ Microsoft how long have you worked there? No one is claiming you get paid less than your coworkers btw.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • eBay Deeamr
      Citizens are flight risk and don’t need any sponsorship from the company meaning companies holding power is reduced
      Dec 26, 2017
  • T-Mobile / Eng p021dbw32
    I think all the smartest people from all over the world should be welcomed here and given citizenship. We should take all the smartest and thrive as the greatest nation.
    Dec 27, 2017 2
  • Microsoft newyorkhky
    Am not against immigration—US has benefitted historically from drawing on non-US citizens.

    I am, however, against the system abuse (eg big consulting firms), politicians who use it as a platform for fear-mongering and the haters (you don’t like it here, go the fuck home).
    Dec 26, 2017 1
    • OP
      Abuse is the termite. Harms everyone except the big firms making 💵
      Dec 26, 2017
  • TuneIn ibelieve
    People are wary of outsiders, especially those who are very different;

    some prefer things to remain the same, and may think that's actually possible;

    on a related note, if your city is going through rapid transformation, you may feel like being alienated in your own neighbourhood, that feeling of losing your roots can be quite upsetting.
    Dec 26, 2017 1
    • OP
      Very valid perspective. However, isnt that interesting given that very “roots” is all about immigration. However, the cultural conflict will always be a major challenge I agree.
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Kaspersky Lab Rtyuip
    Well, some says that population ages because younger generations can't afford having kids, so they might be mad that goverement support immigration instead of younger Americans
    Dec 26, 2017 2
    • Amazon 🥓 lover
      Which is utter nonsense. But I don't doubt you that people get angry over false beliefs.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Kaspersky Lab Rtyuip
      True, well what I was trying to say that people had been angry at government for many reasons, and there are maybe a point when they are angry about everything USG does and can't think straight anymore
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Gallagher / Eng HhyD10
    The irony is that this country is almost entirely built through immigration. The majority of Americans have immigrant blood less than 3 generations ago. People just like to have something to hate and blame for the troubles in thier own lives.
    Dec 26, 2017 2
    • TuneIn ibelieve
      People just don't hold the same belief as their ancestors. Actually, I doubt the original colonists conquered America on the belief that all should be welcome to the land of free.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Oracle Iiii88888
      @Hhy

      Correct.

      Like all of the immigrants that hate Trump for causing troubles in their lives, because he believes the interests of citizens should be placed above the interests of immigrants.
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Expedia cLSq38
    I always take it like this. If a Chinese can do and if an Indian can do why can’t I.... rather than if a Chinese can do or Indian can do let’s not give them opportunity
    Dec 6, 2018 0
  • Expedia pfender
    I mean wtf. All americans are children of immigrants. The natives are the people who should be asked this question.
    Dec 26, 2017 0
  • Sciton / Eng vecE27
    The share of non-US born residents in US has approached the historic highs. The more it goes on like that the more ethnic ghettos will be created, more interpreters will be needed for proper functioning of society, multi-language schools and other costs. It is getting harder to assimilate the growing share of immigrants to the US culture.

    The whole system should be merit-based and more favorable to skilled immigrants, rather than have more than half of the immigrants come through family connection to recently naturalized citizens, like it's happening now.
    Dec 26, 2017 14
    • Sciton / Eng vecE27
      Here's 50 more years of non-native born population data from 1850.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Sciton / Eng vecE27
      Could you provide a similar data on Canada, since you mentioned?

      Yes, children of Chinese, Italians etc. indeed integrated, but that happened when immigration laws got tightened in 1870-s and then significantly in 1920-s and number of new immigrants has dropped. We are heading towards the same now. Laws will be tightened, immigration will drop (hopefully the merit-based immigrants will prevail over other types) and remaining immigrants will integrate.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Amazon 🥓 lover
      People didn't integrate because less tightened. People just integrate. Kids go to American schools and grow up far more American than their parents. The current immigrants are doing it, education rates, inter marriage rates, English proficiency rates ALL show that.

      Canadian immigration is 0.7% per year, more than double the US rate of 0.3%. Canada's target is 1% immigration per year but has missed that target and only gotten the 0.7% most years.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Amazon / Product FuckObama
      It's not at all obvious that recent immigrants will assimilate well. First, lot of them move to areas with lot of immigrants, which significantly slows down assimilation. Second, technology enables immigrants to easily stay in touch with their home countries.
      Dec 27, 2017
    • Amazon eek a 🐁
      Didn't the Italians move into Italian areas? Seems to have worked out.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • Apple GuerreroSt
    Yeah, the article basically only mentions Directional State Universities. Boo hoo.
    Dec 26, 2017 1
    • Oracle Iiii88888
      This is a good thing for residents of the state. It will make acceptance a little bit easier.
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Google morni431
    Indian guy here.

    It is true that US has a huge talent shortage, especially in tech, which is why there are so many immigrants. But are you sure that this shortage will exist if college in US became free or even reasonably priced ? The tech culture would also have to become more accepting of engineers of a variety of demographic profiles (women or black people don't feel welcome in most engineering teams - imho). And then Americans would not need foreigners to fill tech positions (or at least not in current proportions).

    Life in US is hard and cumbersome in many ways, especially if one is poor or lower-middle class. People spend so much time driving, or navigating shitty public transit. Even poor people have to pay income tax. Lots of poor people in the US work multiple jobs which are far apart from each other. It becomes hard for them to study and improve their station in life due to all these factors. The crazy tuition costs do not help either. The US Government should support its poor and enable them to get into tech jobs.
    Nov 1 0
  • Amazon
    唔撚系掛

    Amazon

    PRE
    Amazon
    唔撚系掛more
    Local residents across the globe all dislike immigration unless they got something out of it, like cheaper prices, or else it is just a competition for jobs. You will always find that it is the rich who favors them and poor and middle class not so much.

    Republicans and Trump are not holier, they are just doing what the white mid Westerners and southerners wanted.
    Dec 26, 2017 0
  • Amazon 🥓 lover
    The anti family idea President Chump is pushing is ignorant. Data shows that people with family connections are the most likely to be long term successful.

    The "dey took r jabs" crowd just doesn't understand economics: immigrants create more jobs than they take.
    Dec 26, 2017 12
    • Amazon 🥓 lover
      Family immigration also results in, guess what, children. Not only do family immigrants have higher social mobility than employment immigrants, they integrate faster and contribute more in terms of building the population and the community.

      Lots of employment immigrants actually eventually leave, taking their families, children, and savings with them. Particularly employment immigrants from backlogged countries or immigrants whose spouses are prevented from working.

      By the way I'm an employment immigrant from a non backlogged country. I am telling you the opposite of what would benefit me personally because it's the truth.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      Where do I even begin...

      Lots of citations needed for your claims of:
      (1) Family immigrants have higher social mobility
      (2) They integrate faster
      (3) They contribute more to building the population**
      (4) They contribute more to the community

      The issues such as spouses being unable to work only exist because they haven’t been given green cards yet. Also, you should consider that many of them leave not by choice, but by necessity - if you get laid off and don’t have a green card, you basically have to pack your bags.

      You sound like a total idiot btw. OMG look at this group of high-income people! They don’t have the right to permanent residence here, so they might leave eventually! The obvious solution here is to give them green cards so they have the right to remain, not to give green cards to someone else...

      In any case you haven’t provided any data to back up your claims here that employment-based immigrants who have green cards or are naturalized actually leave at a higher rate than family immigrants who have the same papers.

      [**] I actually wouldn’t be surprised if skilled immigrants have fewer children on average. Having more children is correlated with lower education and lower income levels, after all. But if this is the concern, the solution to this is more immigrants, not immigrants who produce the most kids.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Amazon 🥓 lover
      Most employment based immigrants NEVER get green cards. But it's also obvious that people with family ties are more likely to stay for the long run than people without.

      The social mobility point was mentioned in the links above.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      Then exclude them from the comparison, because temporary workers are not immigrants.

      The only people asking for more H-1B’s (as opposed to more green cards for skilled workers) are companies - not people who want to work here.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      The only thing your paper found is that spouse immigrants have a high social mobility. Which is not too surprising - associative mating etc.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • New / Product
    Billybaby

    New Product

    BIO
    Brick n Mortar retail
    Billybabymore
    There are unemployed people and there are foreign-born workers pouring in. There is definitely a skills-mismatch, although over-hyped, and there is an unwillingness to be adaptable - moving states, working hard/smart.
    Dec 31, 2017 2
    • Kaspersky Lab Rtyuip
      Another thing might be that engineering education in US cost way more than the one in another country.
      Jan 1, 2018
    • Amazon / Product Ex-Banker
      The skills mismatch is definitely overhyped. Low skilled mass immigration does hurt low skilled American workers as the latter is not able to transition into higher paying skilled jobs due to their backgrounds. In addition, low skilled immigrants are paid their marginal product, meaning that they are paid roughly the value of the goods and services they produce. Hence, there is no incremental output that will result in wage increases for Americans. Research by immigration economists such as Borjas and Hanson show that the positive economic impact of immigration is only 0.1% of GDP.
      Jan 1, 2018
  • Intel gpdshdcrd
    Merit based seems to be the most viable option, but let’s say it’s someone like Albert Einstein, then I would think we would have enough sense to know he will be coming with his family.
    Dec 26, 2017 1
    • Apple GuerreroSt
      Most discussions of merit-based immigration (including the RAISE act proposed by Republicans) have immediate availability of visas/green cards for parents, spouses, and kids.

      It’s the distant relative stuff that people are opposed to.
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Apple GuerreroSt
    Dip in international admissions is not necessarily a bad thing. Are MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, etc having fewer international applicants?

    Or is it mostly the small-name Directional State University types, who use international students as just a cash cow?

    I’m interested in the raw data from which the 40% stat was produced.
    Dec 26, 2017 1

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