Holidays

Is Thanksgiving Day sort of like Columbus day?

Microsoft Big Pun
Nov 22

We did murder a bunch of native americans...
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  • Columbus was the best thing that ever happened to those natives.

    Yes they were mistreated, yes they suffered diseases, and Indian wars often went beyond conquering territory into genocide.

    But a more complete review of history reveals that they were already constantly carrying out genocidal attacks on each other before Europeans got here, and that after 15000 years of no technological progress getting conquered by an advanced society was in fact not only inevitable, but long term good.

    A century or two of abuse in exchange for ending 15000 years living as savages is actually a good deal.

    May not be politically correct but I don't see any natives giving up electricity, modern textiles, running water, etc.
    Nov 2220
    • Absolutely I consider the modern lifestyle a benefit, and does every single native person. They universally prefer to live in heated homes with running water rather than tents. They all want access to healthcare. They all want electricity.

      You have ideologically attached yourself to the false idea that all cultures are equally good. That's false.

      It's better to have medicine. It's better to have electricity. It better to have literacy. It's better to have clean water to drink and enough for to eat. It better to have the rule of law. It's better to have schools.
      Nov 22
    • New Pppoop
      Finally a guy with some logic on this app. I am not even European and I agree with you.
      Nov 22
    • Salesforce CloudSurfr
      Lol, that's funny. If you can't figure out that what we mean by "Europeans" then I'm not sure we can help you. They are NOT the least aggressive. If anything they've just taken to using mind games instead of direct warfare. And the mind games continue to be used for destruction and control by manipulation and proxy. They're not the only ones, just the strongest at this moment. But, everything isn't linear... just because you don't see some news story telling you what's an act of aggression or how it was carried out and why doesn't make it right. Gonna have to look past the obvious sometimes, which I know is hard bc that's the lie Europeans have told themselves and everyone else-- everything is honest and straightforward and you need physical proof or you're crazy...
      Nov 22
    • Salesforce CloudSurfr
      What does heated homes and running water have to do with the value of another culture? You're right you've ideologically lost me bc you clearly see you culture as better than others...
      Nov 22
    • New Pppoop
      Read this book: the better angles of our nature by Steven Pinker. You will get some perspective. Obviously I am not going to argue here but I used to think like you. We are by no means perfect but it’s a work in progress. It just happens that the Europeans are leading the pack in civility. We as Americans are just the less civil bully cousin.
      Nov 22
    • Cloud, the failed native culture is why they made no real technological progress in 15,000 years. Culture is tied to things like language and literacy, social organization.

      When you say a European way of life you actually do mean a modern, literate way of life with laws and associated technology. You don't have clean running water without modern culture.

      And let's stop calling it European. Modern culture STARTED in Europe, but it has been adopted everywhere because it's better.
      Nov 22
    • Salesforce CloudSurfr
      Pppoop, yes no one is perfect, that's my point. And perfect is subjective.

      Amazon, you're grouping all native cultures in that 15,000 years? Those are some measures of culture, but there are others that were contributed by other societies. The math behind these developments for example. Modern culture may have been most visible in Europe, but the root is what has provided these things and that didn't come from Europe alone, even if most history books have been written to omit that .
      Nov 22
    • The ones in North America were enduring the longest dark ages in recorded history. Except they were so backwards they didn't even have records.

      Central America is a different story. Civilization actually developed in those places, they had maths and science, cities, art and architecture, agricultural, organized trade, advanced institutions, currency. They lost a war with the Europeans, who were further advanced, but it looks like they would have eventually developed into a modern society on their own--they were actually making progress. I'm talking about the Olmec/Mayan/Aztec/Inca civilizations in Central America and the West coast of South America.

      North American natives never got beyond stone tools. They were making nearly zero progress. They just failed. Columbus was the best thing that EVER happened to them in that entire 15000 year period. Large parts of South America were also stuck in the stone age.

      Enduring a couple of plagues was in the big scheme a small price for them to pay to escape that savage existence and join the modern world. Otherwise they'd still be shivering half naked in shitty tents and trying to kill deer with stone arrows to stave off starvation: literally nobody prefers that.
      Nov 22
    • Tableau STEEZIN
      Somebody has never read Howard Zinn
      Nov 22
    • Zinn believes a number of elites manipulate the system for their own benefit. Even if that's true, and we're all being manipulated on behalf of the rich, we're all still living a better standard of living than the natives were in North America.

      I think you could make a different claim with respect to the Inca and Aztec, where they had developed something, even if it was relatively less developed, it was as proper civilization there.

      There really wasn't a proper civilization in North America, no matter how much anyone wants to glorify the miserable existence they had previously.
      Nov 22
  • Amazon whatΒΏ
    Thanksgiving is a day to give thanks. Many people get together with family or friends to celebrate.
    Nov 222
    • Facebook lulz1
      Exactly. Microsoft guy - don’t be an idiot.
      Nov 22
    • New uNqx31
      Thanks to who?
      Nov 22
  • Yes. European people thanking other Europeans for having successfully massacred the natives and colonized the Americas.

    NINJA EDIT: also for being able to shove the eurpoean way of life down any remaining natives' throats
    Nov 221
    • The Ninja edit is a great thing for the natives. Not one of them prefer a native way of life.

      Just like no Indians prefer an Indian way of life. When countries like India adopt programs to make their country more like Europe they call it "modernization".

      The great thing is that it isn't genetic. Everyone can modernize and leave behind their old savage ways.

      You call that way of life European but really it's just better. The modern era began in Europe and spread from there.
      Nov 22
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Microsoft Big Pun
      OP
      Not troll, it occurred to me after reading this actually. Not everyone celebrates Thanksgiving Day.

      https://es.pn/2PQxqUH
      Nov 22
    • Microsoft TrumpWins
      Why don't we ask Kyrie Irving why we should celebrate MLK day or have black history month? Blacks commit almost half of all murder in the US according to federal statistics. We shouldn't celebrate that.
      Nov 22
  • It also worth pointing out that the wars didn't kill significantly more people than wars in North America killed before Columbus.

    Tribes were always warring and killing and while the Indian wars killed a lot of people, so did the wars before Europeans got here. It was common for the natives to burn down a neighboring village, kill all the men and enslave the women. They did it all the time.

    What caused their decline in population was disease. Particularly smallpox, but also a variety of others.

    Those diseases spread far faster than the Europeans. Smallpox started ravaging the West Coast before the Europeans even knew it existed.

    So that was bad for the natives but it's not something you can BLAME anyone for. Had the natives been the ones to travel to Europe and return that STILL would have happened.

    In fact, the Europeans brought back a number of diseases as well and absolutely saw pandemics sweep across Europe.

    There is only one reason why it hit the natives harder: their more primitive society had no meaningful medical treatment. In Europe the medical system was backwards in those days, but it existed and made some difference.

    So the impact of disease was really the inevitable result of their isolation and also the result of the extreme savagery of a native society that had no effective way of managing disease.
    Nov 220
  • Microsoft TrumpWins
    So what are you saying? Only whites kill people?
    Nov 220
  • Lawrence Livermore National Lab / Eng
    Ron Swan

    Lawrence Livermore National LabEng

    PRE
    Agilent Technologies, Bank of America
    Ron Swanmore
    Nov 220

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