I often struggle with this . It’s possible to get all the vitamins and proteins from vegetables, so the only real reason to eat meat is taste .
Is it then immoral to subject animals to pain and torture for our taste ? Does that then make meat eaters bad people ?
- New / DataNewYear!1lb beef takes close to 2000 gallons of water to produce. 30% of all water used is for meat alone. Anyone who drinks water should find that appalling. Morality comes later.
- I'm considering going vegan for the health, environmental and cruetly reasons.
There's really strong arguments that we don't need to eat meat and it's just a luxury.
- Amazon 46+2What about artificially grown meat though? Few start ups(US, Israel) have made significant progress in this domain and I think this could be a thing very soon.
Peeps saying that only domesticated animals taste good, have you tried elk or mountain goat? Wayy better than beef.
- Try this website called google.com for your convenience, here is one short article from WHO
"The World Cancer Research Fund (WCRF) and the American Institute for Cancer Research (AIRC) have also found that “the evidence on processed meat and cancer is clear-cut.”
Seriously can a body of research be more direct? Yet millions like you continue to be in denial due to religious and/or cultural reasons (most religions allow meat consumption, with some encouraging it). It does takes a fair bit of reasoning and courage to see truth when you have been programmed in one way since childhood.
- "Processed meat refers to meat that has been transformed through salting, curing, fermentation, smoking, or other processes to enhance flavor or improve preservation." So everything because no one is crazy enough to eat uncooked raw meat (or I could be wrong)?
Processed potatoes are harmful too due to acrylamide, but that's beside the point.
- Cooked meat != Processed meat
I guess your fundamental misunderstanding of the term is the reason why you got everything so wrong!
And no it's not beside the point, fermenting and salting meat causes similar kinds of problems as fermenting or salting vegetables for a similar reason. Any preserving process creates problems in any food.
- Cooking == Processing, my Friend in denial.
Processing that breaks proteins into carcinogenic compounds, do not change just because of the ZIP code. Home cooking is just harder to measure because of the huge variance in outcomes and preferences. It's convenient to just sweep it under the rug saying processed meats only refer to things that come in cans but the truth is sadly harder than that.
- No, cooking is not processing. Your potato dinner isn't "processed food" just because you cooked it. In the links you referred to processing meant processes that preserve meat, not processes that prepare it for serving on the table.
In fact you pasted a definition of processing the included smoking, fermenting, salting, and other forms of preserving but NOT frying, boiling, roasting, or other means of heating up food immediately before consuming it.
You are flat out wrong on this point and it cost you the whole debate.
- I am not going to let someone impose their morality on me, nor will I seek to dictate someone else.
I would love for all the meat eating supporters to respond to one comment though: dog meat! I have a huge issue with people supporting meat, but judge other cultures for the specific meat!
- Eating meat is your choice but stop spreading false information like this.
It's the new year. Do yourself a favor and check out this neutral article..
- Here you go. Your argument is well known fallacy used to make against veganism.
When humans eat flesh, we don't actually tear it with our cuspids. Instead, we soften meat with cooking and then pre-tear it with utensils before grinding it down with our flattened molars, which are particularly well-suited for chewing vegetation.
Using dentition as an indicator of diet is a hard case to make. Domestic cats and dogs have similar dental structures, but cats are obligate carnivores and dogs can be vegan. Gorillas are herbivores with long canines. Our own teeth are closer to those of herbivores than carnivores, but we are capable of digesting the flesh and secretions of other species, which means that we can choose to eat plants, animals or both. So it's clear that a species' teeth are not a reliable determinant of its dietary requirements.
- I'm not denying that humans are omnivores. What point you are making is another classic fallacy.
The claim that humans are natural meat-eaters is generally made on the belief that we have evolved the ability to digest meat, eggs and milk. This is true as far as it goes; as omnivores, we're physiologically capable of thriving with or without animal flesh and secretions. However, this also means that we can thrive on a whole food plant-based diet, which is what humans have also been doing throughout our history and prehistory.
Even if we accept at face value the premise that man is a natural meat-eater, this reasoning depends on the claim that if a thing is natural then it is automatically valid, justified, inevitable, good, or ideal. Eating animals is none of these things. Further, it should be noted that many humans are lactose intolerant, and many doctors recommend a plant-based diet for optimal health. When you add to this that taking a sentient life is by definition an ethical issue - especially when there is no actual reason to do so - then the argument that eating meat is natural falls apart on both physiological and ethical grounds.Jan 42
- I think it is because of climate impacts, but I still eat meat all the time because I figure it'll get banned or made prohibitively expensive eventually and I want to enjoy it while I still can
- Animals have rights. Countries around the world have animal welfare laws, because as beings with a conscience, humans have empathy and recognize that animals feel pain too.
- You need to understand the purpose for a law and stop imagining that because we have a law that it's based on some universal tenet that should be generalized to other cases.
Those laws exist because they catch people who are starting out abusing animals but will graduate to abusing people. We want to catch them before they step up to causing real harm.
There are no such concerns in an industry setting and so it's not sensible to extend those laws to research, industrial, or agricultural settings. The food processing plant is NOT going to graduate to processing people, unlike the kook who drowns kittens for fun.
The goal of those laws is to catch the kooks before they hurt people. There is no underlying animal right.
- What I don't get is that a lot of meat eaters can't handle watching how animals are slaughtered for meat. It's like they put a blind fold on and like to only see packaged meat at the grocery store.
And pet owners who are meat eaters. Wtf? Hypocrisy at its finest. Eating a pig is OK. Eating a dog or cat is not ok.
Climate change is another thing.
- The type of dog people eat is a different breed. Also anyone who lived on a farm is familiar with raising an animal and then eating it. I didn't, but my parents did. Nothing wrong with that.
Get rid of these religious kooks who don't understand the relationship between humans and the animals we use for food. There's nothing incompatible between naming an animal and eating it.
- I feed my cats pure raw meat and bones every day. I tried to feed them veggies but they won’t eat. They must be immoral and going to hell. Bad kitties.
- Lions hunt zebras and eat only for survival. Lions won't kill zebras if they are full. This is natural and there is balance in the food chain. Humans do not hunt and kill. Animals are raised in an industrial manner to be slaughtered for human consumption. We no longer eat animals to preserve the natural balance like humans did in the stone age
- Cool, at least we agree that inhumane treatment is bad. If you see how the slaughterhouses operate in most of the places, how the animals are tortured, you would not like that. You can find so many videos on YouTube. Do you check the meat that you eat comes from humanely raised animals? No, right?
- No, but I don’t eat meat that often because it’s a hassle to cook. I do eat a lot of seafood and don’t think about the inhumane treatment of my salmon. When I do buy meat like chicken it’s for my cats and I don’t guilt trip myself about such things whether their food comes from crappy slaughterhouse or not. I don’t think I have the luxury. They don’t necessarily sell ethnically sourced pet food. It’s already something crazy like $10/pound for frozen raw. 😭
- It’s impossible to morally defend eating animals. People only do it because they were taught to do it growing up. Plus the whole butchering part is out of sight out of mind.
- Have you ever had a pet dog? Do you know what it’s like to withhold a nice juicy piece of steak from a dog who’s wagging his tail at you?
Dogs can technically live on a diet sans meat just like we can.
- You should go check r/happycowgifs. They bond with humans almost like dogs. There are many other animals that are not loyal. You don't eat that, do you? You eat meat because they are tasty and not because some animal is not loyal. You just made that reason up when confronted with the question to feel better about yourself and give an excuse
- VMware / EngVPCPlants have life too. What makes you think they are inferior to animals? This world is too cruel for you I am afraid.
- Folks in this bubble need to get out and see what nature really is. There is no such thing as being nice. The thing you learned about a a food chain is just one thing after another, eating each other(usually alive and painful death).
Once you get to the top predator you die and microbes move your nutritional value back to the bottom of the chain.
This is nature. This is natural. Human eating animal is nature. Human eating animal is natural.
For religious folks - this is the system God built.
For philosophical folks - pain and death are part of the circle of life. Pretending that you can absolve yourself from being guilty, is denying your own nature and your own existence.
You must kill in order to stay alive. You killed many sentient creatures today just living. By the time you die, even as a vegan, you will have killed billions of intelligent creatures, as small as ants and other insects, to mammals such as regular killing of rabbits and gophers that threaten your vegetable farm.
Even a cute outdoor house cat adds an average of 200 birds per year being painfully chewed and eaten alive.
- Humans were naturally hunter gatherers. Some tribes were naturally cannibalistic. Humans slowly evolved out of these things. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's ethical. Racism is also inherent human nature. It would be ideal if no one is racist and striving towards that is not wrong. Using the "nature or natural" reason is a fundamental mistake in this argument. Industrialization of killing animals is not natural. Hunting and killing animals was natural.
- If your saying that humans using tools to raise animals is what makes it unnatural, please strip now.
Humans, like other animals, raise other animals for food. Ants create ‘industrial farms’ of aphids to produce their food. They are in the circle of life just as humans are in the circle of life.
- OK. We might have different definitions of natural. It isn't simply a tool.
It is untrue that you only do things that you consider to be natural - you use the internet, you presumably use a car or a bus or a plane, and so on. You use modern technology, and do various other things that cannot be called natural. Likewise, there are other things that are natural that you avoid. Nature is pretty cruel, and we actually live life in modern society trying to avoid the perils of nature.
You might argue that anything is natural which humans are capable of. But if you argue that, then the justification "it's natural" would apply to literally any human behaviour, and as such is ridiculous, since you would not say that any human behaviour is justified just because a human did it.
- Microsoft / EngdKWp30I’m a meat reducer - hard for me to go completely vegetarian because I really like seafood, but I try to have a vegetarian day at least once a week. I hate the taste of beef and lamb and I don’t really like eating chicken/turkey/pork that much either, so it’s easier on that front. I respect vegetarians and vegans though!
- Most people eat too much meat.
If you set aside the extremist nonsense that meat is harmful there is a sensible conversation about what is the right balance.
You need meat in your diet, but most people eat way, way more meat than they should and the excess is harmful.
Your approach seems sensible. Having a couple days a week without meat, and eating smaller portions of meat on the other days, is in line with the actual research, and really, in line with the way our ancestors would have eaten.
In fact, you should have a day a week where you fast and eat very little. There are some processes that happen when you are hungry that help limit disease. Arteries get cleaned up, tissues heal, even some evidence that precancerous cells get selectively destroyed.
So a good diet would be 3 or 4 times a week, 2 or 3 purely vegetarian days, and actually just fasting one day every week.
- Buy from a rancher and get to know the animal you're buying. Know how it's raised. Understand more of where your food comes from. Plants make me sick, I'm meant to eat meat. Humans thrive on meat.
This has only become an issue lately because people don't really know how their food got to their plate. Animals die for plants too, farmers are killing all the things that are trying to eat the plants as well. Neither path is without the blood of animals.
- Oracle buzzrdThis isn't popular in the media yet, but maybe what people need to know. Whatever is happening to our food chain due to the food industry and GMO for the past half a century is the cause of most modern health issues. Modern medicine won't let you die, but modern food won't let you stay healthy no matter what diet changes you try.
- Maybe. But lab grown meat will change this entirely. And in my opinion make it more moral than eating plants. As plants are also living organisms and have feelings. So while eating plants may be more ethical now I still wouldn’t say it’s ethical. https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm
- It is not immoral, we are predators, like wolves. It's who we are. I don't get this crazy self loathing.
- Just remember, if you don’t kill and eat an adult deer, a baby deer is going to starve to death.
It is really depressing to see you advocating for starving baby deer.
- Ya your reading comprehension is not your strength... most domesticated animals will be extinct in only a couple years if humans disappeared. Cattle would be gone in only a few months as they mostly starve, without industrial agriculture to pump out the grain needed to keep so many alive.
- Without modern industrial farming we would not be able to feed the 7 billion people on the planet.
It's great to say go eat only free range chickens or non GMO vegetables or organically grown produce but all those things take more land and resources to grow.
The result in macro terms would be starvation as we would not produce all the food required to feed everyone, and in micro terms the result would be food prices would rise significantly and poor people would get priced out of the grocery store.
Is immoral to support non GMO, organic foods, free range, etc, you are literally causing people to starve.
Renewable energy is another bugsboo. That 10 percent ethanol gasoline for example that comes from renewable sources just result in corn products costing more, and as a result poor people in developing countries starve.
Lots of well intentioned stuff actually has a similar effect to the Great Leap Forward in China: meant well but caused mass death.
Just let the market sort it out. Let people eat whatever they want and let the pricing mechanism drive e efficiency into the system.
- Symantec drthvaderMany Indian Brahmin have this view that eating meat is immoral. But many of them doesn’t know that still the kashmiri pandit eat meat . They like lamb the most followed by fish and chicken.so it is not immoral to eat meat.