Offer @ 135k in SF

Terminus / IT HankBank
Sep 3 678 Comments

Got an offer for IT Manager for 135k in SF.
Really wanna take it but everyone keeps telling me this is way too low for a person with a wife and kid.

Any insight on this? Really wanna take the offer, but don't wanna struggle.

HALP!



Edit:
Gave back some of the stocks got it bumped up to 176k base, 9k relocation, 5k signing bonus & 30k shares over 4 yrs

Thanks for the help everyone!!!

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TOP 678 Comments
  • Terminus / IT HankBank
    OP
    Yikes!
    Im making 93k now so thats a big drop
    Sep 3 15
    • PayPal / Eng krkn839
      Only at Amazon then, nobody refers to SF or even Bay area as SFO, it is used only for the airport.
      Sep 3
    • Apple highwayman
      People who refer to SF as SFO drive me crazy.
      Sep 3
    • WeWork Grkhc
      @highwayman you mean they “fly you crazy”
      Sep 3
    • Facebook / Eng bushdid119
      Oh god I HATE people who refer to SF as SFO
      Sep 3
    • Indeed iessess
      Oh god I hate people who refer to San Francisco as SF. Drives me crazy. SFO is slightly better. SnFrnCo would make even more sense.
      Sep 4
  • NVIDIA bayhomeles
    Get ready to be homeless.

    Find a good soup kitchen start-up and Starbucks nearby since they will never kick you out now.

    Also check Grindrr for "Dirty Mike and the Boys", good group to be in for fight night Fridays.
    Sep 3 10
    • NVIDIA bayhomeles
      Tell them you literally can't feed your family with that garbage offer, then tweet about it.

      Not that they'll feel any shame, nobody in the valley has a soul per-sa, but it will at least be honest.

      Then go back out there and get that paper!💰
      Sep 3
    • Google / Creative qwertyforu
      Take it to get here, but try to get more.🤷🏻‍♂️
      Sep 3
    • Guidewire ooooou
      It’d be rough. State income tax here is HIGH too so take home will be lower than you might think.
      Sep 3
    • BYTON bytCN
      You will end up working a second job if you take that offer
      Sep 3
    • HCL EnPh25
      Even my current employer pay me near 135K that too in Texas with low cost of living and no state income tax.
      Sep 3
  • Terminus / IT HankBank
    OP
    No...money isnt my motivation....getting out of the racist redneck infested south is my motivation....giving my child an opportunity to see more from his bedroom window than fuckin fields of cotton and confeferate flags is my motivation...

    I'm not "lucky" to be making more than 80% of the country...I worked hard for every opportunity..and I'll continue to do so.

    Im the 1st in my family to graduate college and the 1st to get a masters degree...im sorry but your generalization doesn't apply to me.
    Sep 3 14
    • New / Eng
      eglobal

      New Eng

      PRE
      Google, Microsoft, Cisco
      BIO
      Entrepreneur. Jack of all trades. Master of some. Investor. Architect for Systems and Businesses. Blockchain is the future. Crypto Advocate.
      eglobalmore
      Hey man. I didn't mean to insult you or offend you. We're all trying to make a better life for ourselves and family.

      SF is just one of those cities people would love to work on for the easy 6+ figure income. Problem is rent, food, daycare and everything else is also 3x to 5x the typical prices.

      What about Scottsdale, Arizona. Or Colorado or Texas? Lots of tech jobs there and I'm sure you can find a startup that needs someone like you who is funded, can pay $80k+ a year and you'd probably end up saving $15k to $20k a year. Also have equity in something that may become bigger some day essentially bringing you closer to $150k to $200k a year salary if sold after a couple years. I've known many that do this every 2 or 3 years and end up with extra $300k to $500k each time after joining the right tech startups.

      Nonetheless. Wish you luck. Don't stress too much, your focus should make happiness in your life, with your family and have extra Monopoly money to take your family traveling. Traveling around the world opens the heart and soul 🙂🙂💞
      Sep 4
    • Google / Eng
      narval

      Google Eng

      PRE
      JPMorgan Chase & Co.
      BIO
      infrastructure engineering, DevOps/SRE
      narvalmore
      OP, I totally feel for you. And never apologize for wanting to offer your family a better life.

      No matter what decision you make, I wish you and your family hapiness.
      Sep 4
    • Google G minority
      The Bay Area is one of the most segregated places I’ve ever lived.
      Sep 4
    • MassMutual / Eng
      NkOS62

      MassMutual Eng

      BIO
      Lead Software Engineer
      NkOS62more
      You are lucky. You worked hard. So did others. Not every person who works as hard as we do ... is in an industry that is absolutely on fire.

      And, we live in the United States of America....

      So, do not blow off the fact that you are very lucky. You make more than physicians in some parts of the world.

      Discounting that fact is both arrogant and ignorant.

      ( before you go blowing me off as some privileged whatever- I'd face more hate than you down in Podunk... )
      Sep 4
    • NIC tenzena
      Black guy here...There are more places to work besides the bay. Kansas City, Austin, Seattle immediately come to mind. If you don’t wanna raise your kids in the Deep South.

      Also, racists are everywhere man. If you’re looking for some raceless utopia, it doesn’t exist. I’ll admit some places are better than other though. But you should ALWAYS run the numbers man. This offer is a bad one.

      Keep grinding and sooner or later someone will offer you something decent.
      Sep 4
  • Zuora VzLf26
    You people talk about SF as if it’s worth moving there to be at some center of tech. It’s a shit city and not worth it...at all.
    Sep 3 8
    • Workday XSDV31
      Agreed. SF is a gold rush city. Get in, cash out, leave. Don’t expect community or country here.
      Sep 3
    • New DkbP71
      I heard it's covered in literal shit.
      Sep 3
    • Ok I’ll try to be realistic - living here you know where places are covered in shit e.g. tenderloin or mission street. A street over might be fine. You have to go above and beyond to find community here as well. All in all would not repeat but I have found my niches in the city.
      Sep 3
    • Nutanix pityus
      @Zuora Could you explain why you think so? Is Seattle better than SF to save more money?
      Sep 3
    • New Gned33
      Agreed. I don’t understand how SF came to be seen as the core of tech. The core is Santa Clara Valley aka Silicon Valley. Tech outside the Valley is 2nd tier at worse.

      Look where FAANG is: the Valley.
      Sep 4
  • Juniper democracy
    Single at 135 will just keep you off the streets. However kids make all the difference in BA if you want good education. Homes with good public schools, private school, and preschool will cost $$. I have 3 kids in preschool at $3k a pop. We bought in home with good public school but mortgage and tax is 20k per month. Public schools also insist on donations of about $2k per child. Parcel taxes are also higher in hoods with better schools. We have low 7 fig family TC but after crazy CA taxes, kids, and housing there’s not much left over. Since blinders will ask my personal TC is a pathetic 240
    Sep 3 18
    • Juniper democracy
      @Bezos
      Agreed. 3k per child for preschool tuition plus after hour care is par for Bay Area. It won’t influence college acceptance. We bought into a better K-12 system that may have an influence.
      My wife and I are shocked at what parents do for their kids here. When I was living in Palo Alto we had a neighbor who wanted a tutor for Spanish lessons. Despite the large Hispanic demo they flew in a tutor from Spain and provided room and board. They felt the Spain Spanish is “better.” I guess that’s why Paly and Gunn students jump in front of Caltrain every year when their grades drop.
      Sep 4
    • Oracle daas-9
      @democracy -How do you get 5% interest?
      Sep 5
    • LinkedIn / Eng phatman
      I'm just saying Ivy League doesn't mean shit. You graduated from there and only work at Juniper. The ROI is trash.
      Sep 5
    • Juniper democracy
      @Phatman
      Your ROI point is valid and there’s good arguments for not going to college at all. I realize this is blind but making sweeping assumptions about someone you don’t know based a single label doesn’t work in the real world. I’ve turned down FANG offers with much larger TC because working much longer hours doesn’t move the needle in terms of my household TC. At the higher income levels the marginal tax rate for W2 income (the worst type) is very large. I could just as easily change my investment mix for more risk to capture more cash flow instead of chasing labor hours. Conversely I could just not work a regular job at all but I enjoy my current situation for now.
      Sep 5
    • Juniper democracy
      @dass
      By cash I mean cash equivalent. Some are bonds purchased at different times, others are leveraged, few are lower grade. I stick with direct issue CA bonds because at the higher marginal tax rates they take about 50 cents on the dollar. 5 percent tax exempt is closer to 10 pretax. I hold direct issue bonds to maturity to remove duration risk but accept default risk but mitigated at portfolio level. You can do something similar with leveraged CEFs but will have interest rate and duration risk.
      Sep 5
  • New / Eng
    eglobal

    New Eng

    PRE
    Google, Microsoft, Cisco
    BIO
    Entrepreneur. Jack of all trades. Master of some. Investor. Architect for Systems and Businesses. Blockchain is the future. Crypto Advocate.
    eglobalmore
    I'm sorry but you're debating if $135k as an IT manager might be too low? Wow. Thanks for reminding me to refuse money from bay area investors since most require you to have a local bay area office.

    Local office = staff that post online wondering if they can extract more for something LITERALLY tens of thousands can do for 1/5th less.

    Sorry, but these are my feelings. I think you should feel very fortunate that in the coming years there will be another recession and you're making 10x more than 80% of the country. You could also go live in Oakland where it's half the price. It's not how much you make that counts, it's how much you save. If money is what drives you then you'll be one of the first to go from a company as you may turn out to be dead weight when it comes to downsizing in a bad economy.
    Sep 3 7
    • Google / Eng
      narval

      Google Eng

      PRE
      JPMorgan Chase & Co.
      BIO
      infrastructure engineering, DevOps/SRE
      narvalmore
      @eglobal, 135k is barely above the low income limit in SF for a family [1]. There is a difference between being greedy (let's be honest, most of us on Blind are) and trying to offer your family decent quality of life.

      OP is completely right to ask for advice before making a move that would significantly affect their quality of life.

      [1] https://sfgov.org/scorecards/safety-net/poverty-san-francisco
      Sep 4
    • Grab / Eng sosjbshwo
      Eglobal you are so dumb. You're running a business to make money. Your employees are in a business to make money. To act like it isn't fair for them to be greedy when you are is dumb.
      Sep 4
    • Kaiser Permanente vllgindian
      Is eglobal seriously preaching bout how to keep all the revenue for himself and how employees should have loyalty in this ultra capitalistic country? Wow. He must be [insert race here]
      Sep 4
    • Intuit Heyyyyyy
      Eglobal, your comment shows how ignorant you are. It’s like rich politicians who barely work want to limit minimum wage and paid leave. $135K is barely enough for 1 person to live in the Bay Area, talk about a family with 2 kids. Unless you live in the Bay Area, has 2 kids and be able to survive with $135K, you have no right to tell people what to do.
      Sep 6
    • Facebook / Eng
      dividebyz

      Facebook Eng

      PRE
      Facebook
      dividebyzmore
      eglobal why do you need to run a company to employ people? You are just too greedy. You should be paying people without expecting anything in return
      Sep 8
  • Amazon / Other Firstbk
    This is good. Never compare, Microsoft CEO Satya making 70M, should we compare with him? Stop listening to these BS comments, i survived with wife(not working) and my son when i was making 90k in bayarea. Now i am making 250k in Austin, still feel i am getting low due to expenses. What most important is opportunity and if you spend too much even a million will not be sufficient.
    Sep 3 14
    • I think it’s borderline irresponsible to recommend he take this considering his circumstances
      Sep 3
    • Facebook Ppp45
      He can get better offers! The market is perfect for better competing offers
      Sep 3
    • Amazon / Other Firstbk
      @Boneitis not really, he can stay outside of SF near san jose or sunnyvale for lower rents, how is 135k less.. i am still confused. Are you in SF and how much you make?
      Sep 3
    • Amazon / Other Firstbk
      I know multiple folks who surviving with 90k in bayarea with 2 kids, please see statistics. This is at present, not during year 1976 :)
      Sep 3
    • Amazon Erotochub
      Sure he can live in SJ, which is cheaper but dependent on where he lives. Last I checked Twitter doesn’t have shuttle between South Bay and SF. The commute itself is gonna hit you hard specially you are in IT which probably would not allow WFH. It’s like 2 hours a day on the road.
      Sep 3
  • Uber hMkK70
    Don’t take it. We have enough transplants here anyway. Plus you’ll struggle at that wage. You’ll have to live far enough to afford a spot big enough for your family. Plus that commute will kill you. $136k for an IT Mgr. is lowball. Don’t take it.
    Sep 3 9
    • New
      chochi

      New

      PRE
      ARRIS, Motorola Mobility (a Lenovo Company), AT&T
      chochimore
      Sad to say, Uber guy is right. SF sucks, regardless of the cost. I've lived here most of my life and I'm dying to leave and probably will soon.
      Sep 3
    • The city isn’t ruined by transplants. Look at how Tokyo handled a much more dense population yet its light years ahead. Even NYC is much better. It’s the planning and governing of the city that has failed. Sad but true.
      Sep 3
    • Coinbase babel
      One of the things that used to be amazing about the Bay Area is the diversity and the fact that everyone is from somewhere else. Yes, it’s gone downhill from its hay day, but it’s not because of there are “enough transplants” here. I think there are a lot of things that have contributed to the “loss of culture”, and the deep and growing chasm between the haves and have-nots. For example, we don’t hang out in certain areas of SF as frequently as we used to, and several months ago we went to the Marina and were shocked at, shall I say, the “lack of diversity”. It used to not be like that at all. I feel like money corrupts and that has contributed to the city becoming stupid expensive, unmanageable, and unable to maintain any semblance of balance.

      That being said, I don’t think it should deter people from moving here. Oakland, for example, is a 15 minute Bart ride away, has a lively night life, more culture, and the streets smell of weed instead of piss. You don’t have to live in that SF bubble to thrive in the Bay Area.
      Sep 3
    • First Republic / Eng PineSt
      Totally disagree with the “this city sucks” theme here. It just doesn’t. But! It IS stupid expensive, and your offer IS insultingly low.

      keep looking—better yet, get a couple of offers and cause them to outbid each other.
      Sep 3
    • Deloitte / Consultant tai4,
      love living in sf but its failing to modernize. Look at the tenderloin juxtaposed to fidi. asinine height restriction on buildings. crazy high taxes yet insane crime and homelessness and human feces everywhere. The “economic elite” have 5 roommates in the mission. its more a cyber punk dystopia than a functioning city. but weather and location keeps me here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      Sep 3
  • Oracle PkwR75
    Are you currently in San Fran now? Does the wife work full-time?
    Sep 3 3
    • Terminus / IT HankBank
      OP
      No in GA now. Wife does not work fulltime only PT
      Sep 3
    • Oracle PkwR75
      If commuting 1+hrs one way is something you can afford to do, but even then you will likely still find it very hard
      Sep 3
    • Facebook pVfT53
      Strong agree with this. I’m a single parent with a toddler and while that is a lot for a solo person with no dependents, it adds up *quickly* with a fam, not to mention compounding stress of working just to cover all basic needs.
      Sep 3
  • Concur / Eng Dr. Monkey
    Everyone posting here is spoiled by a decent standard of living. $135k in SF is MORE than enough if you don't mind living in a homeless encampment.
    Sep 3 5
    • Samsara / Eng kKCg74
      Actually just LOLd
      Sep 3
    • Terminus / IT HankBank
      OP
      Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
      Sep 3
    • Macy's / Product
      OGKat

      Macy's Product

      PRE
      Macy's, Nike
      OGKatmore
      Amazing!
      Sep 3
    • Duck Creek wMPu12
      Lol🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
      Sep 3
    • New Gekyume
      You had me in the first half
      Sep 3
  • Dude...considering you're in Atlanta, buy a 4 bedroom house in Alpharetta for 300k, and live a decent life. Chasing 135 k in SF is foolishness. IMO the move is not worth it for less than 200k TC.
    Sep 3 10
    • Terminus / IT HankBank
      OP
      Theres a couple here from Oracle and they retired at 38 and 39 and they own a subdivision and they just rent out the nicest houses in the area they own like 4 homes
      Sep 3
    • Terminus / IT HankBank
      OP
      Both got like 3 mil after 4 years at oracle
      Sep 3
    • Panasonic Avionics CmjE05
      I fucking wish 300k got me that house lol.
      Sep 3
    • Terminus / IT HankBank
      OP
      But also...this house is a 2 hr commute to work each day
      Sep 4
    • Deloitte / Mgmt Helfrich
      Then get one in Atlanta. Atlanta has some neat houses for that price too. Just check if they are near the MARTA , if work is near it.
      Sep 4
  • Microsoft TLCj22
    Since when does “wife and kid” mean you deserve more money? I have 3 kids and a husband so does that mean I should get at least 500k? If only... lol
    Sep 3 7
    • Microsoft TLCj22
      Wanting to provide for your family is fine but the way the question was phrased it made it sound like TC should be higher because of family status. If I were OP, I’d figure out what I was worth based on experience and skill level and then figure out what area of the country (or world) would give me the biggest bang for my buck. And, look at what skills I should focus on improving in order to increase TC over time...
      Sep 3
    • Hitachi Vantara CojU07
      I get what your saying..and true, family status shouldn't be a qualifying factor for salary level, but if you got a family and you're the primary, you gotta do what you gotta do to provide.

      My point was that the number they gave this guy, considering the location, was a joke. If that's how they compensate, I'd avoid them.
      Sep 3
    • New / Eng
      TechLeed

      New Eng

      PRE
      Amazon
      TechLeedmore
      It absolutely is a qualifying factor of salary, it's a buy out price that companies need to consider. Why do you think they hire mostly single people? It's cheaper for them to not have families.
      Sep 3
    • Booking.com XqBM21
      nonsense, having kids/ non working spouse is a choice, not something others should be bothered about
      Sep 3
    • New / Eng
      TechLeed

      New Eng

      PRE
      Amazon
      TechLeedmore
      Very progressive mindset, the guy with the family has more expenses therefore is going to be more expensive
      Sep 3
  • Amazon live2code
    We are all wasting our breath- y’all know he’s gonna take it, if he hasn’t already accepted
    Sep 3 16
    • Intuit 555734
      @live2code, it cost you $65k to move half way across the country? every time I've ever moved it cost less than $2k and I went farther than you every time.
      Sep 3
    • Amazon live2code
      $5k cash for incidentals
      3 months of corporate housing OR 60 days free rent- I took the housing- total cost was around $15k
      3 day Housing hunting trip for the whole family- all expenses paid
      Moving services- they packed our house up, loaded the truck and shipped everything from the Midwest to Seattle, and then u loaded the truck at the new place- this was around $10k
      Shipping two cars from Midwest to Seattle- $4k
      Final trip expense, including airfare, meals, luggage and pet fees, transportation to/from airports and 3 nights in local hotel
      Return trip airfare and expenses- to tie up lose ends back home
      $3k home refurbishment allowance to get my existing home ready to sell
      Taxes- this is all considered taxable income, which Amazon covered at a 22% tax rate
      Sep 3
    • GE hbjjjn
      Awesome! Thank you
      Sep 3
    • Intuit 555734
      wow, thanks for explaining everything. I wouldn't have considered anything other than the truck, fuel, and 4 nights in a hotel in the moving expenses. Once I've arrived I consider that to be no longer moving. I went some 2200 miles and it cost $1500 out of pocket.
      Sep 3
    • PwC oFgg42
      @A now it’s just 7k lump sum post tax go figure it out yourself
      Sep 3
  • Microsoft / Eng Osr
    I make 140k right now and live in SF proper so I can paint you a picture.
    7500 after tax income pm
    - 2200 - studio rent in an awesome area but no washer/dryer in unit or building. Have to go walk one block to a laundromat.
    - 300 utilities
    - 1k food, I eat take out 90% (15$ per meal)
    - 500 weekend drinks, dine in restaurants etc
    - 500 shopping
    - 500 travel
    - 2500 savings

    As you can see, I can more than survive with 7500 per month income living in a studio.

    With a wife and kid, you can use the surplus 2500 that I have for bigger home or kids expenses etc. You can cook and save money by not eating 15$ take out every meal. You can live outside proper SF like Daly city (tons of my teammates do)

    It's definitely doable. You just won't have much left over for savings. You can still save if you live frugally with a FIRE mentality.

    Plus you mentioned wife has part time income, so that can be used towards whatever you want or savings.
    Sep 3 12
    • Uber h74hsx
      Are you a technical program manager or something on the business side? For a technical pm this also seems pretty low from my understanding.
      Sep 3
    • Microsoft / Product
      Brazuka

      Microsoft Product

      PRE
      Bain & Company
      Brazukamore
      PM has same tc as sde at Microsoft
      Sep 3
    • Your take home for that salary is significantly higher than my take home for slightly lower salary. Do you contribute to 401k? Pay for benefits?
      Sep 3
    • Microsoft / Eng Osr
      If I don't contribute anything to ESPP or 401k, 7500 is my take home. I didn't contribute anything for the first 3-4 months of my employment so I know.

      Now I have started contributing to both.
      Sep 3
    • New Gned33
      It’s a fallacy that ESPP costs you anything.

      It costs nothing. It is is a guaranteed 15/85 = 17 percent return every six months.

      Maybe for the first 6 months you live on cat food but after that you sell your first batch of shares and bank 17 percent while using the bank to upgrade to human food.
      Sep 4
  • Microsoft anand3684
    Its too low for SFO. Negotiate for atleast 15k more .
    Sep 3 1
  • GE hbjjjn
    Move to Austin, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Denver for better quality of living and good opportunities. Bay Area is only for folks who make $450K+
    Sep 3 8
    • GE hbjjjn
      Owning a home and sending kids to good schools or day care and saving for future would need that much in Bay Area.
      Sep 3
    • Facebook FSYS26
      I make less than 150k now with 2 kids and we’re very happy. Never stressed about bills. Even got back 9k in taxes last year
      Sep 3
    • Cruise Automation cruizzin
      Do you rent? Do your kids go-to good schools?
      Sep 3
    • HBO woowe
      What's your commute?
      Sep 3
    • Rubrik / Eng tWmG42
      FSYS26 stop kidding facebook pays more that 150 k to new grads also!
      Sep 3
  • Capital One IDfG88
    Glassdoor says that right for an IT manager
    Sep 3 2
    • Anyone else feel likes Glassdoor’s salaries seem lower than what you find in the wild?
      Sep 3
    • SolarWinds AnEngineer
      Glassdoor is fucking garbage and people should be shamed for bringing them up as a point of reference until they stop presenting their data as an average across all time.
      Sep 3
  • eBay abababbb
    135k is probably about 6.5k per month net..minus at least 3/4k for rent. Minus at least 2k expenses for 3..you’ll be living paycheck to paycheck any unexpected expense can break you
    Sep 3 3
    • The Home Depot taranto22
      Not from the bay area so pardon my ignorance. But how does 135k (11.2k/mo) translate to 6.5k/mo? Are taxes really that high? And 3/4k rent applies to suburbs as well (assuming one is open to commute an hour one way)?
      Sep 4
    • New
      vNTN27

      New

      PRE
      Facebook
      vNTN27more
      Yes, taxes are really that high. My salary es 110k (base), and get around 5600 per month (without contributing to 401K)
      Sep 4
    • Capital One / Mgmt
      🔥InTheHole

      Capital One Mgmt

      BIO
      I love people!
      🔥InTheHolemore
      This. You take that job with that pay and you will most definitely hate it on day one. You will be doing yourself and your family a disservice with that kind of pay in San Francisco.
      Sep 4
  • Panasonic Avionics CmjE05
    The biggest thing I'll add to here, I saw people mention you had a kid (sorry OP I only read the title)... quality of life is something that matters more for a child than the ammount of money you make or job title you have.

    If you move to a less than nice area that's the area your child now lives in, if you go from a house to there your kid just lost a backyard, front yard etc. Sure there's parks and stuff...

    If the money gets tighter and you're more stressed it's not just you dealing with that the wife and kid are too.

    Last but not least the longer your commute the less time you spend with your kid while they're still a kid.
    Sep 3 0
  • Crew aXFh35
    Negotiate the offer whether or not you have a competiting offer. It's the best opportunity to get the biggest raise. After you accept the offer, you'll have to jump through hoops for a measly bump in salary. $135k after taxes will likely be $7k a month or $3500 bi weekly. You can probably get a 1 bedroom in the Tenderloin or Excelsior/Daly City for $2000. Money will be tight when rent is due. For your wife and child sake, negotiate on their behalf. Men are never more handsome than when they make tough decisions for their family!
    Sep 3 4
    • Terminus / IT HankBank
      OP
      I will negotiate for sure
      Sep 3
    • First Republic / Eng PineSt
      You aren’t seriously recommending he move the fam into a 1BR in the Tenderloin....?
      Sep 3
    • New / Data cahoots
      I would also like to add...you absolutely do not want to raise a kid in the tenderloin
      Sep 4
    • Williams Sonoma XhIP67
      Yes TL is not good for families - even the edges of TL may not be good if you have to go through TL for everything (commute, shopping)...
      Sep 4

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