For the engineers out there. it is less hassle to quit than complain to HR about anything. HR is never your friend.
TOP 308 Comments
- Amazon biatch"Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family."
- I once complained about unethical Behavior about my manager to my HR department and the next day my manager pulled me aside and asked me about it
- HR works to protect the company from lawsuits, not to protect YOU from your coworkers. Unless your issue is big enough to take your employer to court over, HR Will always attempt to sweep it under the rug.
- Uber staffEngDon't complain about issues at work to HR, just write a blog about it lol 🤣🤣
- HR works for the company. They are paid by the company. To protect the company.
Notice the common word there?
- HPE WTHpeI've already complained to HR because a manager, during a meeting, asked my age to only say I was still young/naive just to "prove" a point. He got a 25% pay cut that month.
- HPE Random9999No, you do not peek into their paycheck. See also: percentage. Actually, I believe that in such cases the "fine"is measured in work days.
In any case, racial, gender, age or sexual orientation discrimination (or indeed, anything against the "standards of business conduct") will get HR swarming over the offender real quick, managers included. Also, unlike some companies here, sexual harassment is a very sure way to get fired. This is one of the bright spots of HPE's HR(I'm assuming also HP).
This does not mean that HR isn't on the company's side. If you have an abusive manager who knows never to cross any "SBC" lines, then you are just as screwed. There are standard policies like preventing people from moving if they are on pips. Also, internal transfers can be blocked if you are on the team for less than two years(used to be one). So you can get screwed just the same.
Just not in ways that are too unethical.
- If commented story is true, you've been black marked. Every manager around you knows, no manager will want you working for them, and HR will probably brief any potential new managers on your history. Nobody wants to fear their employee. Sorry. This is just the way the world is. You might want to think carefully about doing that again. Hopefully you have a new manager now. The old one will most likely fight hard to promote everyone except you
- What kind of thing are you talking about? How can we judge if you raised a real issue or some bullshit?
- This goes doubly in the case that you're a white male. HR is automatically biased against you.
- New / OtherMachoManmoreevery public company has an anonymous ethics hotline i would try that
- Wipro / ProductGhRa85moreHR function is an Additional cost to Technology companies.Should be automated.Zero fucks given
- HR at my company is amazing, borderline life coach.
People should focus on exceptional culture and look for smaller companies working on interesting problems.
- Sounds like GitHub had a culture issues and a terrible HR person.
Exceptional Culture isn't about being touchy feely, sometimes it's the opposite and about doing the hard right thing.
I dismissed it too until my last 3yrs with Qumulo. Culture, problems you solve and how you grow should trump paychecks and stock options.
- Amazon mbsB75After contacting HR recently for an issue I felt was serious and being treated like I was insane I will never go to HR for another issue again. There was a possibility of danger in the workplace from someone who was clearly unstable and they brushed it off as the guy was just quirky.
- A pip is a performance improvement plan, but it has been used as documentation to fire someone at Amazon, no matter if they improve or not. A pre-PIP is a secret list of people that hr decides to want to fire(could be a number of reasons why), but haven't enacted the process of a pip.Aug 31, 20174
- FastSpring / EngMortyPythnmoreI was on the pre Pip for sure - after 3 years of exceeds expectations and strong reviews at Amazon - they decided to give me a PIP for insubordination because I "disagreed before committing" for running some silly query. I took the severance and ran but ensured my last vest was complete.
Amazon is the absolute worst HR and this site has an entire section documenting it. https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/
If the pre pip is discovered and Amazon gets sued - just want Amazon HR to suffer.Aug 31, 20174
- This is why blind exists. Uber got royally fked when one of their employees went on blind and posted that scathing diatribe about the culture (they lost their CEO). Blind is the social media equivalent of "punative damages" for companies that lack proper feedback mechanisms for improving their culture in important ways that negatively affect / harm their employees. You get a lot of whining with that too of course, but you also get the important things that need to be fixed and communicated to the masses. So the answer of what to do when you encounter a shitty culture or bad management is you should post on blind and get people's advice, get the information out, just like this. This site is rateyourprofessor.com meets LinkedIn.
- Glassdoor kslcnenHR is there so that the company doesn't get sued. They do shit for us. Fucking dbags HR
- I have serious doubts about whether Uber was anywhere bad as Susan Fowler depicted.
- And do you also think Kleiner Perkin wasn't as bad as Ellen Pao is insinuating? https://www.thecut.com/2017/08/ellen-pao-silicon-valley-sexism-reset-excerpt.html
Bro - the valley is full of Roger Ailes of the tech world...and your HR is shitty because these guys hire HR and lawyers to protect themselves. Go work in some good companies and see the difference....
- So? She had a fair trial by a jury of her peers. She presented her case and it wasn't strong enough. Plenty of other plaintiffs in similar situations with similar juries have won. She lost fair and square.
A trial by a jury of one's peers is how we resolve disputes. She lost. Do you not think men (or whatever we're calling ~women these days) can be fair jurors?
- Ah beans, the magical food - the more you eat, the more you toot.
Back to HR thread...
How many HR folks does it take to fix your office light bulb?
Answer: 20. One to put your call on hold another to tell your boss of your electricity overuse and 18 to travel to a conference to study about light bulbs.Sep 1, 20171
- Microsoft kohW36Read Corporate Confidential by Cynthia Shapiro- she lays it all out for you
- HR is always on the side of whoever has the power and/or higher paycheck....hrbp concept is a joke. Get rid of them....
- Oracle yyRk36HR are a bunch of paid good for nothing folks who like to clean the crap of the executives and suck up to them. They have absolutely no power to do anything.
- HR being such a shit show is why Laszlo left Google to start Humu. Each year he was there Google was #1 company to work for. Not even 1 year after he leaves and the whole James Damore (or whatever his name was) a scandle broke out. My money is on his company becoming the AWS or Zenefits (minus the stairwell sex) of HR outsourcing, for companies that actually care about "people operations". Bad industry practices and terrible, low bar HR hires are ruining what could otherwise be great companies.
- The bar is quite low as it is, but actually yes. It was number one company to work for coincidently the same ten years he was there, and it wasn't before. A lot of factors there, but you can get a feel for his data driven leadership style in Work Rules. It's the same kind of data driven culture I found at Amazon, for the most part, but never thought I'd observe it in a department like HR. Engineering yes, business yes, HR no.
- I think op is advocating that as not a bad thing and his removal as a bad thing that may not have happened under Laszlo's standards (implying it may have been better to simply disprove him with data, debate, and managing him out rather than making him a a martyr to the right and allowing Google to seem like it is no longer a free refuge of thought--not that it ever was really, but the allure for many was there).
- Cmon, guys, you don't really believe it.
Lazlo would've done it differently and with way less noise, but Damore would've been fired anyway.
Remember girl who initiated Google salary spreadsheet and figured women and non-white employees are paid less in Google. She was fired under Lazlo watch.
The thing with Damore was that if he'd stay company could get a class lawsuit from women felt harassed by his manifesto.Sep 12, 20171
- They couldn't fire her as that would've been retaliation. However, she was pushed out of a company, her manager found a way to get revenge. Which is a common tactic experienced HR uses. If they fired her they'd pay $2-3 mil. So they just made her life miserable enough.Sep 13, 20171
- So they quietly managed her out, leaving her with a good story to tell, her dignity not destroyed, and the ability to easily move to another firm. For James Demore they essentially labeled him a nazi and fired him in a notorious public display that will make it nearly impossible for him to have the same career.
They should have simply treated him like they treated her and managed him out quietly. It would have been fair. What happened to "Don't be evil?". It goes both ways.
The result was even more Googlers are leaking information now (like those in the town halls who submitted their questions ahead of time about this and got leaked, exposing them to internet doxing) as a way of evening the scores.
It sounds as if they've accidentally declared an ideological war on their own employees by pretending as though all those people who worked there who sympathized with Demore's situation or even supported him, whether naively or symbolically, or both, didn't even exist.Sep 13, 20171
- So. . . This is my first blind comment. Please take a look: https://www.kateevanhorn.com/2017/06/youre-wrong-about-hr/
- New / MgmtBut..Why?HR is there to protect the company. Which means that if someone is treating you unfairly, HR is there to remedy that through dealing with the person treating you that way. It does not mean they will do whatever it is you think is best, they have to follow the law just like everyone else.
- New / OtherzsFw05I can assure you that not all companies are like that. Not even all tech company HR departments are like that. At our company, HR is thanked so much for all the work they do. They keep confidential matters confidential and they help workers through tough work problems. They are there to help managers do better, help workers navigate hard situations and keep the company humming. I'm very sad that so many people work for companies where HR is so terrible and is not an advocate.
- Accenture / Engar77598moreWhen companies are big, HR is basically like a helpdesk, this is why there are intranet sites and hotlines to report legal violations, harrasment, discrimination and for whistleblowing there are external websites.
If you are in a big company don't go to HR to escalate these issues, use the hotlines and sites.
At least at my company the process is clearly outlined.
Now also be mature: not always what you think is a big deal objectively is. At those hotlines and sites they will discretely investigate the matter, separately interview the accused part trying not to disclose they were accused and eventually either bring you and the accused part together to settle or take the proper corrective action and then inform you.
HR here is for other stuff like compensation and staffing and such...
- HR will just protect the manager and the company. If you have a grievance against your manager, HR will take the minimum legal measures of conflict resolution so they have defensibility. If you have a complaint about sexual harassment, HR will come to the rescue by asking questions that will determine whether you have a court case or not before deciding to take action.
Step #1 with dealing with HR is making sure you have a legally justifiable or truly damaging PR story.
Step #2 is recording instances and evidence
Step #3 is contacting HR with more power than they have in the situation.
If you don't have steps 1 and 2, you're better off never meeting anyone in HR in a work situation.
Not sure if this holds true everywhere but it certainly was in all my previous companies, so I treat it as fact
- Amazon oncallToby is in HR, which means Toby works for corporate, which means Toby is not part of our family.
- Google xyzabcdefActually forget about HR and additionally complaining others team members up management chain especially more senior ones. It always backfired me even though I know I was being wrongly treated by seniors. Best give papers and join new group or company.
- This type of things always makes me so fucking angry. Any HR that doesn't tie the success of its talent to the success of the company (aka, using the phrase Human Resources to speak to optimizing the major asset of people to the business) is not a true HR person and probably shouldn't be doing what they do. Good HR isn't stodgy or fluffy. Good HR hires good people and utilizes them to their best potential until they need a better opportunity. I'm sorry most people don't have good HR. But! Thankfully, There are many of us that are good and want the best for people and the business and are also available for consulting, lol.
- Eh. More like I recognize that there are people who are good at their job and there are people who are not. Unfortunately, I've met far too many people who fell into HR because they thought it'd be easy or like playing politics. It's more that I think that, sadly, there are lots of people in HR that don't actually like working with people. Forgive the wording, I probably should have said "talented" or "high performing" instead of "true."Sep 4, 20170
- Kaiser Permanente eCSg78It is quite said, people turn to HR as last resort and only find contempt and betray evidenced by this thread. How many countless people have suffered and will suffer. Only if there is some corporate transparency and healthy culture moving to root out the poor and pathic management practice so prevalent in the tech industry. If VCs and share holders would just not tolerate bad leadership and unethical practices.
- I literally sat back and watched a friend committ suicide, women being sexually harassed, people being man handled, abusive speech, humiliated, fired, verbally abused, a person injured so bad on the job she could not work for 5 years, yet Microsoft fired her, all because of ONE manager. One manager that people went to HR about for years...and HR did NOTHING about it, except keep promoting that ass hole and firing anyone who complained about him....fuck that!
- Or...you are emotionally operating without all the data...typical.
I've had a couple of bad managers over the years. If I decided things were in a rut, I just moved teams or companies. Each time I moved I also made more money and equity: lemons -> lemonade.
If things are so "bad" for you then why don't you own it and move on to another team etc.?
- Glad you thought the conversation or the decision to "just move", was so easy. This manager did everything in his power to tie the hands of his employees so he could abuse them and then make it so that they could not move teams. Could they quit, sure but why should they have to give up their careers or dream job just because one prick is being protected by the corporation? The decisions are not always as easy as typing a response behind a keyboard. Real lives and real families and futures were involved.
- @Tipit frankly I don't believe your tale of woe as basically you're describing a torture dungeon. But I do believe that you're deeply unhappy and I offer this post respectfully to you based upon my personal experience. Good luck:
It's too over the top and as such sorta makes you bleed credibility. I have a relative that sounds like you. They hated their job and made it sound like a North Korean gulag. So he stayed until they whacked him after 5 years of his unremittingly dark sniveling. Then when he was unemployed he found new things to complain about. Lots of time for dark FB posts but oddly enough no effort to stop being a victim or making any significant personal changes.
The other thing is you are acting as someone who takes no personal responsibility whatsoever and is completely helpless. Yes it's as easy as typing on the keyboard.
As for it being hard to make a change...The hard part for you will be jettisoning all your drama and owning your own life. As for getting entangled in other co-workers dreams or whatever there is very little you can do. If you want to help them then tell them what I'm telling you. Specifically cut out the over the top rhetoric and own your own choices: stay, leave or find a way to align your own self improvement goals with business goals of your team and business unit.
- of course not. the role of hr is to fill the recs and protect the company Against lawsuits. your company will never show any compassion towards you. your manager might, but not hr
- Our HR is pretty decent. They have been good mediators on a number of occasions. But you are always better off trying to talk it out first before going nuclear.
- What if I told you half of what HR gets a bad rep for is doing what your hiring managers want us to do while maintaining the facade of the "nice guy". HR doesn't have independent authority. Employees typically don't know the number of private conversations HR has with managers or how many times we've stopped them from firing your ass for some illegal or bullshit reason.
- Ultimately, you should realize that HR doesn't have the ability to just terminate someone independent of a conversation that involves other people, namely the individual's supervisor. We are the often times the messenger in situations that are absolutely "not our call". Getting over the idea that HR has any measurable impact concerning who stays or goes seems to be a concept that a lot of employees struggle with.
As for your actual question, yes, there are plenty of managers out there who have been terminated for their lack of team skills. I've personally seen VPs be let go for not demonstrating effective leadership skills or causing general employee dissatisfaction. If you have a good executive team they'll pay attention to this stuff. If your executive team doesn't give a damn then they won't. HR can try to advise them to care. HRs opinion though, may or may not be considered.Sep 2, 20170
- There are good managers and bad managers, good engineers and bad engineers, good HR and bad HR...your experience was with bad managers compounded by bad HR...who were probably hired by bad managers in the first place...I have worked in places where HR is good - they coach, maintain confidentiality, hold managers accountable...but then when I look at what's happening in the valley, I am not surprised with your experiences
- Oracle / SalesICqm08Is "complaining to hr" equivalent to adult tattling? Additional context would be helpful here.
- That's common sense. They're on the companies side, they pay them money.
Only time going to HR can actually be good is if you're certain something somebody is doing will be cause for legal concern, or if somebody is poorly representing the company.
- ServiceNow SNowflak3And even that's not always true. I brought up the concern my coworker was committing time add fraud, and all HR did was call him directly to ask him about what I said. We were 2 ppl in a small office, obviously he knew it was me who brought up the concerns.
No action taken against him other than no more WFH day on Friday. And so I left, it was gross watching him only work/at his desk 2 hours everyday- the other time hanging with the janitor downstairs smoking