Paternity while on Pip, possible? Put on pip while manager knows I'm expecting. Would concede my avail. Hrs went down a bit.
TC: 130k, Yoe: 2.5 years
- Homeaway C3P0-I agree PIPs are designed to create a paper trail so that you can fire someone without getting into legal hassles.
Also, quite honestly, PIP should never come as a surprise to you. Your performance coupled with your relationship with your manager should be enough of an indication of where things are heading.
If you are not self-aware of the fact that you may soon end up on PIP, you are in the wrong industry.
I also agree that HR is for the benefit of the company and not the employee. They have helped design this process, why do you think they would help you beat it????
- New vvnT76Interesting about all the HR hate. Last place I was at HR was the employee advocate, which helped prevent misunderstandings and lawsuits. Now, they were paid by the company, but would at least make sure you knew your options.
You might read the employee manual and see what the rules are regarding response to medical leave.
I think you should let your spouse know, even if you don't discuss it in depth. My relationship with my wife comes before my job, even if it meant I had to get a different one (note, zero immigration knowledge here).
- Oath DNey44If am not too late I the discussion, and if crumpets has not shared it with his SO, I would suggest him to talk to his manager first and ask the term if it’s 60 or 90 days. If the delivery is before the end of his pip term, ask your manager to pause pip for whatever paternity leave days and then resume it post leave. Usually people on pip are not fired until the term ends. In this duration, start interviewing with other companies. In the worst case scenario, even in case of loss of job, you’ll get 60 days grace period. It’s absolutely not the best situation to be in, however even in this case if you keep your cool, you can safely get through this.
- Nordstrom ssadabGood one DNey44. I see so much hate post against HR and so many different advice and scenarios; but in negative path. This will take his morale down and loose his confidence. I think, we should be suggesting him the positive ideas while keeping all the options for worst scenarios.
OP - good luck and hopefully, you'll get over this soon.
- Sorry to hear this. No one should have to choose between a newborn and the job.
- Having a child is a big responsiblity. I don't think a person should be trying to technically hold two full-time jobs at once. Child comes first and if you have some remaining time then use that for work. If you can do both at the same time great. You are superman, else child should win.Dec 18, 20184
- Find out the root cause for it ...why he is putting you on pip..if you have that clear then work with him on a realistic plan to what are the criterias that will put you out of it. I would simply deal with it and face it. While you are stepping up your game at performance your manger should bw giving you an empatheric understanding that you had a baby..but it is part of life ...you gotta do good job in both...sleepless nights a bit..also you hve to do good for the baby rt?
- Definitely tell your significant other, to prepare to any outcome. Talk to your HR to know the options, see what they offer and what are you eligible for. Know your rights.
If it is possible, start looking. I do believe that PiPs are designed to fail. It’s documented process to get you out in a hierarchy. I would show an effort, but do not overwork. I would start interviewing. Best of luck. It’s very tough situation.
- Facebook 😎 🤔🤦🏽@gogoduck why would you think an indian wife who is nurturing his child will not be mature enough to understand the situation? Stress afterwards would also affect baby, and might be more harmful, as she would be going through big changes in her life, body and mind herself. Ever heard of postpartum depression ?
- Google GoGoDuckI'd argue that the amount of stress is more or less propotional to time spend worrying about an issue. She'll be stressed out anyway after the baby is born until OP gets a new job, whether he tells her now or he tells her a few days after the baby is born.
Telling her now would just add on to the amount of time she'll be stressed out about, with the potential to affect the health of the foetus. And if OP is the primary breadwinner, there is not much she'll be able to do except keep worrying about the possibility of having to uproot their lives and move back to India if OP doesn't find a new job in time.
- Don't tell the wife. Even your wife will appreciate you that you didn't stress her out while being pregnant. Tell her later. Any wife will understand your situation and appreciate for handling the situation by yourself. Tell her after you land an offer, lower stress. DM me. We are hiring.
Flagged by the community.
- I meeting HR day after tomorrow to see my options but not sure of outcome. Read the reality of pip that is designed to fail.... but in want to give my 100%. But so many things going in my mind. Confidence is compromised, negativity taking over.
- Microsoft PopUpVideoYou got some good advice to take the paternity leave. I think you should take paternity, especially if you think the pip is going to fail anyway. Use some of your leave time to interview and enjoy your new child.
However, I disagree with all of the comments about lying to your wife. Treat her with dignity and respect her like a true partner. If you tell her what you are going through without whining or venting, then she will not be overstressed. Be calm and communicate. What will be stressful for her is if you suddenly have to tell her you are jobless out of nowhere, with no warning. She deserves the right to take this journey at your side and provide advice. It’s her advice you need, not ours. It will be a comfort to both of you.
- Was the reason for pip political or performance related. If political don’t worry too much about it.
- This seems to be political. Managers would be always looking for scapegoats for their misdeeds. Try to get your parents support during this time so that you can put in some more time for work. There are few things which is beyond our power. Hopeful things turn positive for you!Dec 17, 201813
- Why the fuck are you guys making it sound like this guy deserves a special treatment?! He did not perform, PIP is / will be in place. End of story. The fact he is on visa or his wife is expecting is completely irrelevant. He should have performed and he is not pregnant, do no protected class.
All this scheming to prevent firing for cause is sick. This is why we have incompetent people that can't be replaced...
- It's clear that you never went through the pregnancy. We are humans and not 🤖's. Have some humanity. On average pregnancy comes one or twice in a 30+ years of career life time. If company/manager can't understand employees need for that few months and relax performance requirements, then I am sorry but that manager doesn't deserve to hold the managerial title.
Of course all this applies to employee suffering with major terminal illness as well.
In both cases, employee or/and their spouse are depends on employer to provide medical insurance as well so at least on humanitarian ground, I would expect employer to reduce performance requirements.Dec 18, 20188
- Microsoft dushbdnksThey should fire this VMware guy. Must be a toxic colleague to work with. Empathy and understanding human dynamics are what makes great employees and it seems this guy not only doesn’t have it but promotes inhuman acts. Working with such an employee is a nightmare with unreadable code and my way is the only way type of mentality. Team will collapse and the company can perform better without this guy. Low performer contributes little but still better to have one than not. Toxic employees destroy the company and absolutely better to not have them.
- American Express egkwaUmmm... So he concedes that he deserves the PIP and no one in the thread is contesting that.
He is asking for advice on how to manage it with the baby on the way.
Unless you think successfully completing PIP is "scheming to prevent firing for cause", who said anything about preventing being fired?
- Aye lavdu IRQQ72. Anyone that needs to be replaced is you. You are incompetent if you think work is all about slogging hard. It’s relationship, wlb, long term focus and plus work. I think you are only working and thinking that you are too significant. You are not unless you are Pat Gelsinger
- Empathy has nothing to do with this. This guys admits he deserves a pip (kinda) and instead of facing it he is trying to use paternity to delay / prevent it...
I have no problem stepping up and doing more when people get sick or need help, but they must perform at their best when not.
We all get paid to produce value this guy does not. It is simple math. And this is why I know I am replaceable as is anyone, including Pat.
And most of you are missing the fact he may not be able to take the paternity because child was not born yet. Thus my calling of the scheming here to prolong the time to deliver the PIP.
And if you want to call measuring everyone equally, removing the dead wood and replacing with those that will do a great job, be my guest.
- ”measuring everyone equally” lol dude are you new to the industry. For this one paternity dude there will hundreds at PayPal getting paid in millions to put half the time this dude is putting in. When it comes to family matters even my worst manager on his worst day would support me irrespective of anything. I am dead sure you are right out of college, you know nothing “nada”
- Thanks blinders, will explore Fmla and paternity options. Will update in few weeks where things stand.
Btw: This is in merchant's org. and I'm a PM(should have told earlier).
To protect my identity I can't reveal names or more information. Sorry.
- This “us vs them” mentality is bullshit when it comes to HR. Yes, they are representatives of the business, but they aren’t some governing body that you can’t be transparent with in fear of being sanctioned. In fact, they can be strong advocates or consultants for you as well. In modern tech companies, there’s a reason that they are switching their name often from “HR” to “People Operations”.
OP, I’d recommend using all resources you can in your situation.
- Cisco lkonksThe general unwritten rule is if a person going on PIP is surprised, then the Mgr did not do their job correctly. Expectation is that there are at least 2 qtrs of time when concerns regarding Performance are raised with employee and usually recorded.
My humble advise is a PIP is preceded by bad to no bonuses, RSUs etc along with explicit concerns which should get u to do whatever u need to do.
Once a PIP is raised, a small .% still makes it but with the additional pressure & extra monitoring, it is usually a lost cause.Dec 21, 20182
- I didn't say not to do it. I said at some places its rather bad because the team was counting on you. Lots of companies are resourced constrained and now you are holding up a headcount and work is not getting done. Amazon has infinite money and resources so please go to Amazon where whether you work or not is important to the success of the team.
- You can always negotiate it when will receive a new job offer. This is life. People negotiate starting dates, upcoming weddings and paternities.
Start looking, but know your rights. Talk to HR and your manager so they are aware of a situation, if possible negotiate to extend PIP’s end date given your situation to win some time to secure a new job.
- Amazon Proud_DemYou qualify for 12 weeks FMLA by law regardless of PIP. Even if it is your last day you can take FMLA and no one can stop you. Go to my leave and apply for FMLA (notify your OB about this situation) - OB’s office should support your request.
- Pure Storage orangeg769I’m not sure if this is true if you are on an H1B. Would be good to double check. Agree with the others, you’ve found yourself in a sticky situation. Above all else - your family and child are what is constant. Continue to try to do your best at work and communicate that to your manager and HR. Good luck.Dec 17, 20180
- Fucking punish ur manager's name and team name in PayPal. Make sure ppl don't join his/her team ever.
- I would recommend taking the leave and still working for 2-3 hours every day whenever you can find time, probably that is the best way to show your manager that you are dedicated to the job.
- I recommend taking the paternity and use that time to spend with your family and look for another role (at amazon and other places). It will push the pause button and allow a minute to breathe.
- It stresses out employees. They aren’t any good for company as well. If you putting someone under pip then make sure those who hired them are held accountable.
- Interviews are far from perfect, and definitely can't measure smth like OP not putting in hours if he chose to withhold that information or didn't knew about it.
A pip is supposed to do 2 things :
1. create a clear expectation on what an employee required to deliver and how the work place can assist with that.
2. Make a paper trail incase things go wrong and the company needs to let go of that employee.
- Shame of all those people who are supporting OP here without knowing entire picture...he might be in pain right now but on the serious note, how was his performance in last 6-9 months..until he is a victim of performance he deserves what he gets...
He knew his spouse is pregnant. He should have kept balance between work and personal life.
Companies are not supposed to run some charity...
- Shame on people supporting OP? Do you know what goes on with OP? How do you know? We are all guessing yet you judged others should be ashamed and you are right. What if his manager was wrongfully placing PIP? He should keep balance? Does he have to abandon his pregnant wife? Are you a human? Why are we working? Honestly, you look like to have the third world mentality. Look at your messy comment with so many dot dot dots. Let’s keep US labor practice not fall to the level of third world.Dec 31, 20181
- I've worked at PayPal merchant org.. I worked my ass of for them and I was treated like dirt. TC was 89K with 0 stock&bonus even though I demonstrated ownership and fixed a live failing broken legacy service app by myself and became good with JS + React in 5 months. In the end i got forcefully re-orged when I asked about promotion.
I have nothing but hate for this team. I give OP the benefit of the doubt and fully support him. He can contact me if he wants a referral to Amazon.Jan 12
- He is in this mess because of whom?
One simple question which he did not respond so far.
How was his performance in last 6-9 months?
How was his performance before his wife was pregnant?
Things don't change overnight. It's individual's behavior and responsibility towards work. When you are at job, you are suppose to work.Jan 11
- Samsung usr777PIP means they want you out... my suggestion would be to consult a lawyer and make sure to document everything that happens... you should take FMLA and paternity not sure if you will get paternity but you will get FMLA 100%... And look for other opportunities... dont be afraid.. just dont loose your cool and use your right to take FMLA..
- Salesforce dzDN16Another option could be to postpone your paternity leave, work to get off the PIP, then take leave after.
- Amazon Ahhh 😎I had a coworker in a similar situation at Amazon.
DO NOT trust HR. They work for your manager, for the company not for you.
Use your paternity leave as a chance to interview somewhere else.
Your family and your own health come first.
Some companies only care about the company’s profitability.
- Freddie Mac gottagetonExplore the legal angle once. Talk to an employment law attorney. PIP is different from layoff notice (which will soon come thru because PIP are designed to fail the employee and HR gets a paper trail for future legal ramifications).
You dont need to worry. Tell your wife about the situation and let her know that you are trying your best for all options (fmla, postpone pip, job search etc.). Enjoy family time with your wife and be happy for to-be-expected kiddo. Jobs, H1 will come and go. Life doesnt stop here. Your manager does not control your life. Remember that.
- Uber Bob14There is a lot going on so I’m sorry if I missed it somewhere but I work remote and the saving grace to that is everything is a conference call and can be recorded when needed. I would suggest arranging for all HR meetings to be recorded conf calls or be sure to take detailed notes on each in person meeting and send a follow up email with your notes asking for confirmation from your hrbp. It’s been noted many times that HR is not your friend and I think we all have sources that can confirm that. You gotta document everything if you ever think shits about to go sideways.
- What is the reason for you to be in PIP?.Is it in your control to improve and deliver as part of the plan?.You seem to be running away rather than taking responsibility for a situation that you are also responsible for.Tell your manager you can’t afford to lose your job with a child on the way and you intend to do your best to rectify the situation and become a valuable employee to buy some time.Do your best to contribute ,but also look for another job.For your next job,don’t take people or any day,minute or hour you spend at work lightly.
- Thanks for your inputs. Just want to reiterate that didnt mean to post this to gain sympathy points or trash my manager. Timing on pip can be argued either way...but more so wanted ideas and some confidence booster. Anywho, thanks again for your inputs and I'll try to keep calm, execute few things as suggested and hope things turn in my favor, Family > job. Will keep you all posted.
- Birst jYbI71PIPs are targeted and political as it provides a means to terminate an employee that would be hesitant to apply for unemployment. I’ve seen rock star developers get PIP’ed because the org didn’t want to pay their above market salary and they didn’t want to pay severance. They usually find a job before the PIP runs it course. Good organizations try to course correct well before these are necessary.
- Companies spend loads of cash to attract talent and maintain it. Superstars aren't getting PIP because of their salaries. If you've seen a superstar get a PIP, smth might have happened, maybe around behavior rather then performance, or very leaninet previous managers or a new un experienced manager that doesn't.
There could be many reasons, high salaries (at least in big companies are definitely aren't the case)
- BlackBerry WillMorrisIt is indeed unfortunate that you were put on a performance improvement plan. It is also unfortunate that the United States legal system does not adequately protect workers from being treated unfairly.
Firing an employee on FMLA will look very bad for the company so they are unlikely to do that. I would take FMLA and search for a new job while on it.
I’d also consult an employment attorney if I were you. Keep notes of who said what, when and where. If the employer discriminated against you and you fall into a protected class, employment attorneys will not hesitate to take up your case.
You should tell your significant other and all the people who you are working with on projects including the managers and tell them that you need all the help you can get. Don’t hide it as you need support during this stressful period to get through it. Only confide in those who actually have your back.
Don’t be afraid to tell people you are on a PIP. The company, HR and your manager can’t tell others that you are on a PIP. However you are not legally restrained from doing so even if they tell you otherwise.
Good luck and get a job in another company ASAP
- Okay .... now I read the whole thread. First off there was no need for Mr. Papa to not put in time. Assuming you had really genuine reasons to do it and now this situation has unfolded .. this is what I think you should do. 1. Extend out the PIP 2. Extend out the severance (get paid exit for a few months) 3. Hopefully this get you out till the baby is due 3. Get a doula 4. Time your h1b transfer to consultancies. It’s taking 3-4 months for transfer , in case you are fired join the consultancy on receipt. What this leaves is the eventual worst case of you are fired and H1b transfer is rejected but this all will take months to unfold. In general relax and this is a small hiccup, it’s only as serious as you want it to get. Best of luck with baby
- Keeping paternity thing aside, how's your performance? Do you deserve PIP?
OP... How's your performance in last 6 months?
Why blaming your manager for your bad performance
- Being a manager is not simple...you need to show output at your end as well.. I am super sure that manager must have given many hints before going ahead with it PIP....
Either way, it is also important that know OPs performance in last 6 months and also if manager gave any sign of PIP...it's just a coincidence that OP is expecting now..
- Just like there is a low performer in ICs. There is also a low performing manager who is not doing a good job managing people and simply trying to cover up his or her immaturity by blaming on someone. We don’t know if the manager has done it properly. Ideally, most of ICs should be coachable if manager is competent. Everybody has ups and downs. You gotta see the positive side in a person and encourage him properly. Tech managers are in general poor at managing people though.
- Done something productive today though and updated my resume, reached out to few contacts and got leads. Hopefully, I should be able to get things in line and balancing all would sure be a challenge. Pip performance and delivery, searching new gig, new born soon & prepping for that with no in-laws.
- New thankUnextIs it just me or does anybody else here do not understand what pip is outside python?
- It's morally wrong, if not legally. How can you stress the family in such critical times? I can understand if the company is going bankrupt and have no choice, but PayPal is actually doing pretty good. I imagine it will be a PR disaster for PayPal if you expose it to the media.
- Pinterest DhdjdnnfuxIf the manager is understanding, instead of working on the pip take the time to find a new job. If they decided to let you go, paternity is off the table usually since it needs manager approval. Even if you get paternity, look for a job during that time.
If the kid is not born yet, you can ask for paternity in the new place and they will usually allow it.
Having a kid is already stressful, even if you stay the work will make you even more stressed later. Just leave now no matter how hard it is. It will be even more stressful later.
This comment was deleted by original commenter.
- Sorry to hear. I heard PayPal is generous with employees. Do pip plans are designed to fail?
- Amazon IBCv80Hi, I have been in your exactly same situation, before signing to enter the pip. Just take your Paternity for 3 months, use this 3 months to take care of family and new job. Talk to HR and maybe senior/director to make sure your employee status is guaranteed during those 3 months.