I have to raise my voice here, in SWE, one of my previous group, guys are bully towards me. I am a female experienced engineer. I reported to HR, then HR covered them. And point the finger to me. Classic backlash of meToo movement. I also report sexual harassment in this group before. When out for team lunch, a guy referred at the food I ordered as male’s body part. Then all the retaliation came from his male friends in the group. The manager purposely ask me to use illegal content or unreleased photo to do my work or upload to social media, to try to get me fired! I reported to HR, they again cover up for the manager, saying he just learning... hello, leak is criminal in Apple now, and Apple obviously help to manager to get me into trouble. Horrible story right? And it is true and it happens in Apple now!
- Amazon PlanckGoing to HR over a crude joke about what a food item looks like seems over the top. That is not a metoo moment. If somebody makes an offcolor joke, you politely ask them to stop. If they keep doing it, then you go to HR. By overusing HR you end up looking like the woman who cried wolf, so to speak. Not defending the targeting and the rest, but it certainly sounds like there is more to this story than you being harassed.
- Given OP’s amazing grammar and response to this thoughtful feedback - I think they’re just trolling here. +1 to the Amazon comment above - going to HR for a crude joke is about the dumbest idea ever. Also, your manager asking you to post something leaked on social media is not sexual harassment the last time I checked. If you involve HR for every little thing and post stuff like this crying MeToo - genuine victims’ voices will be drowned.Aug 5, 2018 13
- Males are fragile. Someone calls op a BITCH and when she stands up for herself she's "over reacting". Someone else says sexual harrasment (and what she describes is actual bonafide sexual harrasment) and someoke mansplains sexual harrasment of women to her.
All you men replying are fragile insecure gas lighters. 🙅♀️
- No, friend. Making dick jokes created a hostile work environment. She found it offensive, and everyone knows It's harrasment. That's the legal definition.
And trying to say, you calling me out on sexism is sexism is the typical male fragility. Males go fragile because men don't like the idea of thinking they're bad actores, a sense of resentment
As for the bitch comment, yeah, people call it. The point is that since ne calling was your immediate response instead of addressing her argument you lose already.Aug 4, 2018 6
- Your premise relies on: “She found it offensive, and everyone knows It's harrasment. That's the legal definition.”
We know that “everyone knows it’s harassment” is patently untrue, as has been demonstrated here. That leaves “she found it offensive” as the core requirement for the legal definition.
If that’s the case, that one person need find anything offensive to institute legal accusations of harassment, hopefully you see why that might be a problem, and why the victims of real work place harassment suffer from snowflake-tier shit like this.
You’re essentially saying that you and OP are able to make accusations, and no one is able to question any aspect of said accusations because that’d demonstrate “male fragility”.
Which segways into the final problem, of assuming gender. Probably the worst sin of them all is to assume gender on the basis of anything other than the person’s confirmation of gender. I’m not sure who gave you the right to do such an extraordinary thing, but I wish you’d check your privilege at the doorAug 4, 2018 30
- I think a lot of guys get offended here, right? We are women working in tech, not for your free entertainment or abuse.
- A couple thoughts. First, being targeted is never fun, that's unfortunate you had to experience that. Second, you seem to acknowledge going to HR quite frequently. HR's job is to minimize PR/legal damage, not to be punitive to offenders. Really should be considered last resort and not first course of action. It happens everywhere, so don't be surprised. Just be glad you're no longer on that team.
- She clearly has sense of humor, check out her comments in this thread, it’s just different: friendly joke/joking amongst anonymouses on Internet vs hostile joking from dudes who ganged up on her in work environment where you can’t escape it and gonna continue to work with them
- Intel / Eng plebSo she can say here "You deserve eat all the bananas from Walmart shelf for breakfast" but she couldn't take a banana-dick joke from those guys ? Why didn't she give them this line ?
Letting aside the questionable humor on both sides, what's the most dissapointing is the lack of responsibility of their manager. He should have had a grown up discussion with the offenders and discipline them if they didn't get it.
- Coming to blind on this topic is like walking into a den of wolves and claiming you’re a bunny. I’m sorry you experienced what you did and that so many people here are giving you crap for it. The truth of the matter is that you should not have had to experience any of what you have at Apple or any workplace. Silicon Valley plays like they want women in the workforce, but 10 years of my life spent in Silicon Valley showed me that they really only want you there to have something pretty to look at or screw. If you want to be successful in that environment, you have to play the boys’ game of pretending not to be offended by anything you see or hear.
HR will not help you. I know this from experience that HR only cares about covering the company’s ass and they will find any way to make the complaint go away by managing you out and saying it was because of your poor performance regardless if you performed perfectly.
So, you have a decision to make. Is this company worth the shit you will have to wade through? Probably not. If you think it is, then unfortunately you have to play their game to get ahead and maybe if you get far enough up, you can institute some culture change. The other thing you can do is sue Apple. You probably have a valid case, but you may not win (Apple has more lawyers)...the best you will get is a settlement.
Again, I’m truly sorry this has happened to you and it’s wrong on all levels. I hope I gave you some perspective on your next moves. There are better companies out there for women, you just won’t find any in Silicon Valley...you have to leave that toxic dump of a Valley to find a company that will treat you right and has a better culture for women to thrive in. I also encourage you to join the Society of Women Engineers, the women you meet there will help you deal with these kinds of issues and help you succeed in finding a better company to work for.
- Oh bullshit. I'm sorry, 'basic sexual harassment' policy is 'thought/speech police' in a funny hat. (And speaking of all sweeping generalities - 'people in other industries' do actually feel restricted by such policies - as a former consultant, I've worked with a good variety of them.)
It absolutely does impose on my speech if going 'hur, hur, banana dick' is an offense. Infantile? Sure. Harmful? No. And other industries could learn from software - one of the few places that the misfit, the weird, the non-'soulless cube dweller' is/was the rule, rather than the exception - and that partially due to its tolerance for 'doesn't matter if I don't like it, you do you'.
Put differently, do you want to work in banking? In medical services? In manufacturing efficiency? All highly trained professions and all about as deadly boring as possible (with exceptions) - because they slowly bled anything like fun out of it (often for good reason). The other industries you speak of are so damn stuffy they're bad at hiring people with dyed hair - much less anything truly weird or unusual.
Also, your final point is flawed for another reason: As a former founder, I would love to have an employment code of conduct that said 'Fuck off, don't take offense. Our corporate culture is have fun, build cool things, ain't no body got time for that shit. But don't get in the way of someone else building cool shit, either.' - but I cannot, because of snowflake-ist regulation. So no, it's not a condition of the company's code of conduct, it's a function of hyperactive harassment regulation that attempts to protect you from having a bad feeling.
I admit I am clearly fighting a rear guard here. But hopefully by the time people like you and OP have 'taken offence' to the limit, we've found the next thing.Aug 6, 2018 2
- I’m so sorry, but your whole premise is ridiculously flawed and I don’t frankly care whether or not you were a Founder (so were lots of people). I find it hard to believe that anyone’s ability to innovate is restricted by their ability to make a dick joke. However, an inappropriate dick joke can be one small thing that contributes to a hostile culture towards women in the workplace, especially when it’s made at that woman’s expense. How well do you think she was able to innovate that day? Do you think people innovate best under a hostile work environment where sexual harassment is just fine and dandy?
In my experience innovation happens the most when every team member is respected and feels safe enough to share their ideas about their work...not necessarily about their genitalia. Sure not everyone may be best friends, but when the team members have mutual respect for each others contributions, it brings a culture of innovation naturally.
Note that this has nothing to do with physical appearances or whether or not you are a misfit. You can have and be all those things without creating a hostile work environment rampant with sexual harassment.
Go ahead and create what you propose and see if it gets anywhere. People don’t perform to their best ability when they have to worry about what their coworkers are going to do or say to them next. When you have to worry about protecting yourself throughout the work day, you aren’t going to find the next thing...nor are you going to find it by hiring a bunch of people who think the same way you do. Innovation is more prolific in teams that are diverse in their make up. If you have the kind of culture you propose, you won’t have a very diverse workforce to bring out the innovation you need for that next thing or the thing after that.
- See, you're half right. You're right, the best culture for productivity and happiness is one where people aren't on edge all day - and paths to that include at least (a) causing no offense and (b) not being offended. The problem with (a) is that someone is always offended, and (a) fosters a culture where taking offense is like falling down in football. I am offended by you, and I do not innovate best in the culture you want, where I have to police my speech diligently for fear of being sued or fired if someone takes offense. So should you be corrected or should I get over it? (Welcome to option (b), or hypocrisy, either way. Either you have to favour some forms of taken offense over others and exclude me (hypocrite - aren't you espousing maximal inclusion), or say that those offended by you should suck it up...which is where I started.)
I wasn't saying 'Oo, I'm a Founder, lookit me!', just noting your point about 'well, you signed up for a corporate code of conduct' ignores that that code is shaped, if not nearly dictated here by forces beyond the corporation, and claiming authority on the subject as I've written one. Hell, I don't even capitalize the 'F'.
Finally, environments that are intolerant and rigid crushers of heresy and diseent (like political correctness) tend to eventually become that which they claim to oppose - totalitarian. So yes, today you come for the dick jokes and yes, that's trivial, in the end, but granting you and those who agree with you the authority to fire and censure when you take offense - I have no reason to believe you'll stop at dick jokes. As you observed, norms changed significantly over the last decades, and I expect they will continue to. So I cannot trust in your taste - it's known to become anachronistic (at best) and much worse.
- We do not put up with that crap at Lockheed. That is a place where managers and HR do take action. Is it completely fair to women? No. I have seen brilliant women engineers take far too long for their promotions, and I have heard some questionable comments from some of the older men, but it is not widespread and it is better than it was 20 years ago. Heck, Vance Coffman’s replacement as CEO a few years back was given the boot just a month or two before he would have taken control. His mistake ? He had what looked like a consensual relationship with a subordinate. We are not perfect, but there are places that treat people better than what OP describes and about what many here say “suck it up; that is life.”Aug 13, 2018 0
Flagged by the community.
- Amazon PodanghaAt Apple, the other day my coworker( woman) who I went to lunch with, made fun at the food I ordered as male’s body part. It was a banana. Hear my sob story and let me cry you buckets abt it. GFOH! Some women really have gone through something and I have great respect for them not for a bimbo who can’t take a silly joke.Aug 4, 2018 16
- You know Apple is run by white men when they call it the iPhone 6+ and it's really only 5.5 inches...
- PeerStreet / Other 6’6 Nordmore“I also report sexual harassment in this group before. When out for team lunch, a guy referred at the food I ordered as male’s body part”
This is why guys don’t invite their female coworkers out to lunch. They overreact to non-issues like these.
- Facebook / Data YCHk03moreThe point of a pattern of misbehavior is that an individual thing “isn’t a big deal”. If one of your coworkers accidentally kicked you in the shin, you’d shrug it off. When it happens every day, and you end up with bleeding shins, then someone laughs about how you have weak legs, the “small” issue of yet another coworker kicking your leg when they’re walking next to your desk isn’t small, and it doesn’t mean OP is necessarily weak or oversensitive, or should go buy shin guards because everyone knows women always stick their legs out too far while at their desks.
- Manager : Indian original from India. American/American/ Chinese pretended to be American
- HR could be an offended Indian
- I don’t know if you saw women protested in front of Uber building. We are angry being treated badly in Tech. Why women can’t display emotion while men can?
- My experience was not only harassment, but also retaliation and targeting. Apple HR actually favor the manager to manipulate me to use illegal content and punish unreleased Apple content on social media, and down play he just learning...
- Not really. It sounds like a troll post or the story of a paranoid person. Not saying nothing there happened (what's described there is unfortunately quite common IME) but that the post itself is not telling the full story and it's making a huge disservice to people that have been harrassed in the workplaceAug 5, 2018 6
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- Wolters Kluwer radix8655The context is absolutely ridiculous. I was at a company party and looking at the time on my cell phone to go home and there was a picture of my girlfriend and I on my phone and he decided to comment on the photo. I was like sorry what did you just say and he repeated that and I posted what ensued. Since then I removed the photo so that no other person would think of making those comments. She was completely clothed in the photo. Not a scandalous photo in any country
- I don’t know what is worse? The troubles she faced or how people on Blind are responding to her experience? Its shameful. Well looks like the world is full of sexist assholes. There is nothing oversensitive in what she did.
To all those who feel she did overreact to those “jokes”, wait till your daughter face the same issues in her workplace. You guys need to change.
- Thanks for complements, unfortunately you just proved me right that you have this bad habit of generalizing. Remember every time someone brings in fake case of harassment, other more genuine cases of harassment looses voice because you already abused it and now unfortunately gave people a reason to doubt others too.