I have to raise my voice here, in SWE, one of my previous group, guys are bully towards me. I am a female experienced engineer. I reported to HR, then HR covered them. And point the finger to me. Classic backlash of meToo movement. I also report sexual harassment in this group before. When out for team lunch, a guy referred at the food I ordered as male’s body part. Then all the retaliation came from his male friends in the group. The manager purposely ask me to use illegal content or unreleased photo to do my work or upload to social media, to try to get me fired! I reported to HR, they again cover up for the manager, saying he just learning... hello, leak is criminal in Apple now, and Apple obviously help to manager to get me into trouble. Horrible story right? And it is true and it happens in Apple now!
- Amazon PlanckGoing to HR over a crude joke about what a food item looks like seems over the top. That is not a metoo moment. If somebody makes an offcolor joke, you politely ask them to stop. If they keep doing it, then you go to HR. By overusing HR you end up looking like the woman who cried wolf, so to speak. Not defending the targeting and the rest, but it certainly sounds like there is more to this story than you being harassed.
- Given OP’s amazing grammar and response to this thoughtful feedback - I think they’re just trolling here. +1 to the Amazon comment above - going to HR for a crude joke is about the dumbest idea ever. Also, your manager asking you to post something leaked on social media is not sexual harassment the last time I checked. If you involve HR for every little thing and post stuff like this crying MeToo - genuine victims’ voices will be drowned.Aug 5, 201813
- Males are fragile. Someone calls op a BITCH and when she stands up for herself she's "over reacting". Someone else says sexual harrasment (and what she describes is actual bonafide sexual harrasment) and someoke mansplains sexual harrasment of women to her.
All you men replying are fragile insecure gas lighters. 🙅♀️
- No, friend. Making dick jokes created a hostile work environment. She found it offensive, and everyone knows It's harrasment. That's the legal definition.
And trying to say, you calling me out on sexism is sexism is the typical male fragility. Males go fragile because men don't like the idea of thinking they're bad actores, a sense of resentment
As for the bitch comment, yeah, people call it. The point is that since ne calling was your immediate response instead of addressing her argument you lose already.Aug 4, 20186
- Your premise relies on: “She found it offensive, and everyone knows It's harrasment. That's the legal definition.”
We know that “everyone knows it’s harassment” is patently untrue, as has been demonstrated here. That leaves “she found it offensive” as the core requirement for the legal definition.
If that’s the case, that one person need find anything offensive to institute legal accusations of harassment, hopefully you see why that might be a problem, and why the victims of real work place harassment suffer from snowflake-tier shit like this.
You’re essentially saying that you and OP are able to make accusations, and no one is able to question any aspect of said accusations because that’d demonstrate “male fragility”.
Which segways into the final problem, of assuming gender. Probably the worst sin of them all is to assume gender on the basis of anything other than the person’s confirmation of gender. I’m not sure who gave you the right to do such an extraordinary thing, but I wish you’d check your privilege at the doorAug 4, 201830
- I think a lot of guys get offended here, right? We are women working in tech, not for your free entertainment or abuse.
- A couple thoughts. First, being targeted is never fun, that's unfortunate you had to experience that. Second, you seem to acknowledge going to HR quite frequently. HR's job is to minimize PR/legal damage, not to be punitive to offenders. Really should be considered last resort and not first course of action. It happens everywhere, so don't be surprised. Just be glad you're no longer on that team.
- Amazon / Engsumit.starmore+1 it is a false assumption that HR helps employees in any case. They are paid by the company. I've seen it twice that the reporting person was managed out and the offender is still around . You are considered as a troublemaker not a victim who is reaching out for help.
I am deeply sorry.
- I'm sorry, but that's straight bullshit. HR is there to enforce company policies and supposed to be a safe route for people to report things like this. To the OP, document everything. Keep records. Be prepared to file a complaint in your local jurisdiction if needed. Don't let yourself or others be walked on.
- This is not about being entitled. It's about not having a sense of humor and emotional skills to deal with a perceived bad joke. I'd bet my money she is from mainland Asia.
Europeans have a much better developed sense of humor and enough self esteem to not get butt hurt by ordinary jokes like that.
- She clearly has sense of humor, check out her comments in this thread, it’s just different: friendly joke/joking amongst anonymouses on Internet vs hostile joking from dudes who ganged up on her in work environment where you can’t escape it and gonna continue to work with them
- So she can say here "You deserve eat all the bananas from Walmart shelf for breakfast" but she couldn't take a banana-dick joke from those guys ? Why didn't she give them this line ?
Letting aside the questionable humor on both sides, what's the most dissapointing is the lack of responsibility of their manager. He should have had a grown up discussion with the offenders and discipline them if they didn't get it.
- Coming to blind on this topic is like walking into a den of wolves and claiming you’re a bunny. I’m sorry you experienced what you did and that so many people here are giving you crap for it. The truth of the matter is that you should not have had to experience any of what you have at Apple or any workplace. Silicon Valley plays like they want women in the workforce, but 10 years of my life spent in Silicon Valley showed me that they really only want you there to have something pretty to look at or screw. If you want to be successful in that environment, you have to play the boys’ game of pretending not to be offended by anything you see or hear.
HR will not help you. I know this from experience that HR only cares about covering the company’s ass and they will find any way to make the complaint go away by managing you out and saying it was because of your poor performance regardless if you performed perfectly.
So, you have a decision to make. Is this company worth the shit you will have to wade through? Probably not. If you think it is, then unfortunately you have to play their game to get ahead and maybe if you get far enough up, you can institute some culture change. The other thing you can do is sue Apple. You probably have a valid case, but you may not win (Apple has more lawyers)...the best you will get is a settlement.
Again, I’m truly sorry this has happened to you and it’s wrong on all levels. I hope I gave you some perspective on your next moves. There are better companies out there for women, you just won’t find any in Silicon Valley...you have to leave that toxic dump of a Valley to find a company that will treat you right and has a better culture for women to thrive in. I also encourage you to join the Society of Women Engineers, the women you meet there will help you deal with these kinds of issues and help you succeed in finding a better company to work for.
- The fact that you call this weak BS is what is really wrong here. The fact that there are worse things going on than this and that it is so widespread is so wrong and a problem with the culture of your workplace that that stuff happened in, but please do not invalidate others experiences because it wasn’t as bad as yours. No one should have to experience this as a base minimum of decency in the workplace. You should just be able to go to work and get your work done without any of this nonsense. That’s probably all the OP wanted in the first place. So enough “whataboutism” that you want to use to invalidate her experience and tell her to get over it.
Are you personally doing anything for those other women in all those countries you are talking about? Probably not, so why go there? Why not start by focusing on how we treat women here in the workplace. You would have far more reach and impact by starting here. I mean if you really care for the way women are treated, then do something about it where you will have some kind of impact. Women need allies in our workplaces right here.Aug 6, 20186
- I am at least speaking about them and bring up their issues whenever I can. I contribute to certain charities ( small amounts as I cannot afford too much) which hare trying to educate and help these women. I read their stories and put their issues forward to us, the society because I believe I have to invest my energy into acknowledging suffering and getting rid of it everywhere, not only in first world countries.
For me as I said I agree. No one should experience anything which offends or makes them uncomfortable. But again at the end of the day, life will give you the check. If you think putting and equal sign between what I call real problems as I have described them above and the OPs problems ( which I am not denying are real for her), then very well, but again life.
I prefer putting my energy and effort where I feel the world needs it.
I would have to be a real hypocrite to cry about again something as weak as a penis joke and pretend that is the upmost importance.
Us , the community, have the luxury of seeing the world more objectively and make hierarchies of the issues we are faced with. Something like a PM does. We prioritize them. All of them are real, but do all of them deserve equal attention.
Ask yourself, is it fair for the person with the joke to have hist career ended for a joke? Would our society be better if companies like Apple, FB, Google, Msft impose joking standards within? Do you believe the society would better if our beloved overlord would control what we speak, think, act etc so we act perfectly equal to one another? Would that solve the problem? Why did you jump to believe her? Did it ever occur to you that she might be a bully as well?
Again this is a never ending problem because it is so subjective it can be split infinetly and used as a weapon so then colleagues beware.
Remember that vodka joke you made last week? You made it because you hate Russians and I cannot stand Russian haters so I cry to my company to fire you.
Good luck with that.
- First of all, I believe her because I have seen the same thing happen too many times to know that it does actually happen. Oftentimes, the first time it happens it is such a shock, that you often don’t even know what to say or how to respond, other than to just eat your food in silence and find a place to try to collect yourself for the rest of the day. Witty comebacks only come after experiencing this repeatedly and figuring out that is your best way to deal with it.
So would it be fair if I made a comment about how what you are eating looks like what my vag looks like during shark week? How would that make you feel? If I started talking about my vag at the lunch table and making jokes, would you think that was appropriate discourse at the lunch table or would you find that quite offensive and not something to laugh about?
I’ve known men to report women to HR because they thought their clothing to be a tad too revealing (when it was not) just to preemptively ward off any potential sexual harassment claims towards them, when the same guys have pictures of girls in their toolbox. I’ve known men to report women to HR for being too assertive claiming they are ruining the team dynamic my being too pushy or b****y. They most certainly would have reported a woman for making vag jokes about food.
The balance of power here is what makes this especially offensive. Women are not the majority and cannot possibly have the same amount of power a man has in the same position and when that power unbalance is further enforced by men acting like pigs and getting away with it, you best believe I will believe the woman every time. She has absolutely nothing to gain by complaining and she most likely knows this. She complains because she needs help. I don’t know any women in engineering roles who complain to upset things or get special attention. Most don’t want any attention unless it’s for doing a good job on their work or for honest feedback on their work.
Oh, I also don’t make jokes about other sexes or races. I find them to be in very poor taste. I don’t like jokes made at others expense, it’s pretty infantile comedy.
It’s 2018, women’s liberation happened over 50 years ago. The rest of the business world in every other industry does not put up with this kind of behavior and the only reason it is allowed in Software is because there aren’t enough women. Because of that, men have been allowed to act like 1960s frat boys for far too long. So continuing to defend some idiot making a penis joke and trying to “PM prioritize” it looks like a really old way of doing things, not some new fresh insight or take on the problem of sexual harassment. I cannot believe that we still have to talk about this over 50 years later.
People in other industries don’t feel restricted by basic sexual harassment policy (which a penis joke would not be allowed), so trying to turn this on it’s head is a false equivalency. It works in other industries, it should work in software as well. This does not impose on your freedom of speech, it’s a contract with the company that you behave to their code of conduct as a condition of employment. Make all the penis jokes you want off of company time, no one’s going to follow you home and monitor your speech.Aug 6, 20184
- Oh bullshit. I'm sorry, 'basic sexual harassment' policy is 'thought/speech police' in a funny hat. (And speaking of all sweeping generalities - 'people in other industries' do actually feel restricted by such policies - as a former consultant, I've worked with a good variety of them.)
It absolutely does impose on my speech if going 'hur, hur, banana dick' is an offense. Infantile? Sure. Harmful? No. And other industries could learn from software - one of the few places that the misfit, the weird, the non-'soulless cube dweller' is/was the rule, rather than the exception - and that partially due to its tolerance for 'doesn't matter if I don't like it, you do you'.
Put differently, do you want to work in banking? In medical services? In manufacturing efficiency? All highly trained professions and all about as deadly boring as possible (with exceptions) - because they slowly bled anything like fun out of it (often for good reason). The other industries you speak of are so damn stuffy they're bad at hiring people with dyed hair - much less anything truly weird or unusual.
Also, your final point is flawed for another reason: As a former founder, I would love to have an employment code of conduct that said 'Fuck off, don't take offense. Our corporate culture is have fun, build cool things, ain't no body got time for that shit. But don't get in the way of someone else building cool shit, either.' - but I cannot, because of snowflake-ist regulation. So no, it's not a condition of the company's code of conduct, it's a function of hyperactive harassment regulation that attempts to protect you from having a bad feeling.
I admit I am clearly fighting a rear guard here. But hopefully by the time people like you and OP have 'taken offence' to the limit, we've found the next thing.Aug 6, 20182
- I’m so sorry, but your whole premise is ridiculously flawed and I don’t frankly care whether or not you were a Founder (so were lots of people). I find it hard to believe that anyone’s ability to innovate is restricted by their ability to make a dick joke. However, an inappropriate dick joke can be one small thing that contributes to a hostile culture towards women in the workplace, especially when it’s made at that woman’s expense. How well do you think she was able to innovate that day? Do you think people innovate best under a hostile work environment where sexual harassment is just fine and dandy?
In my experience innovation happens the most when every team member is respected and feels safe enough to share their ideas about their work...not necessarily about their genitalia. Sure not everyone may be best friends, but when the team members have mutual respect for each others contributions, it brings a culture of innovation naturally.
Note that this has nothing to do with physical appearances or whether or not you are a misfit. You can have and be all those things without creating a hostile work environment rampant with sexual harassment.
Go ahead and create what you propose and see if it gets anywhere. People don’t perform to their best ability when they have to worry about what their coworkers are going to do or say to them next. When you have to worry about protecting yourself throughout the work day, you aren’t going to find the next thing...nor are you going to find it by hiring a bunch of people who think the same way you do. Innovation is more prolific in teams that are diverse in their make up. If you have the kind of culture you propose, you won’t have a very diverse workforce to bring out the innovation you need for that next thing or the thing after that.
- See, you're half right. You're right, the best culture for productivity and happiness is one where people aren't on edge all day - and paths to that include at least (a) causing no offense and (b) not being offended. The problem with (a) is that someone is always offended, and (a) fosters a culture where taking offense is like falling down in football. I am offended by you, and I do not innovate best in the culture you want, where I have to police my speech diligently for fear of being sued or fired if someone takes offense. So should you be corrected or should I get over it? (Welcome to option (b), or hypocrisy, either way. Either you have to favour some forms of taken offense over others and exclude me (hypocrite - aren't you espousing maximal inclusion), or say that those offended by you should suck it up...which is where I started.)
I wasn't saying 'Oo, I'm a Founder, lookit me!', just noting your point about 'well, you signed up for a corporate code of conduct' ignores that that code is shaped, if not nearly dictated here by forces beyond the corporation, and claiming authority on the subject as I've written one. Hell, I don't even capitalize the 'F'.
Finally, environments that are intolerant and rigid crushers of heresy and diseent (like political correctness) tend to eventually become that which they claim to oppose - totalitarian. So yes, today you come for the dick jokes and yes, that's trivial, in the end, but granting you and those who agree with you the authority to fire and censure when you take offense - I have no reason to believe you'll stop at dick jokes. As you observed, norms changed significantly over the last decades, and I expect they will continue to. So I cannot trust in your taste - it's known to become anachronistic (at best) and much worse.
- We do not put up with that crap at Lockheed. That is a place where managers and HR do take action. Is it completely fair to women? No. I have seen brilliant women engineers take far too long for their promotions, and I have heard some questionable comments from some of the older men, but it is not widespread and it is better than it was 20 years ago. Heck, Vance Coffman’s replacement as CEO a few years back was given the boot just a month or two before he would have taken control. His mistake ? He had what looked like a consensual relationship with a subordinate. We are not perfect, but there are places that treat people better than what OP describes and about what many here say “suck it up; that is life.”Aug 13, 20180
Flagged by the community.
- Amazon PodanghaAt Apple, the other day my coworker( woman) who I went to lunch with, made fun at the food I ordered as male’s body part. It was a banana. Hear my sob story and let me cry you buckets abt it. GFOH! Some women really have gone through something and I have great respect for them not for a bimbo who can’t take a silly joke.Aug 4, 201816
- You know Apple is run by white men when they call it the iPhone 6+ and it's really only 5.5 inches...
- PeerStreet / Other6’6 Nordmore“I also report sexual harassment in this group before. When out for team lunch, a guy referred at the food I ordered as male’s body part”
This is why guys don’t invite their female coworkers out to lunch. They overreact to non-issues like these.
- Facebook / DataYCHk03moreThe point of a pattern of misbehavior is that an individual thing “isn’t a big deal”. If one of your coworkers accidentally kicked you in the shin, you’d shrug it off. When it happens every day, and you end up with bleeding shins, then someone laughs about how you have weak legs, the “small” issue of yet another coworker kicking your leg when they’re walking next to your desk isn’t small, and it doesn’t mean OP is necessarily weak or oversensitive, or should go buy shin guards because everyone knows women always stick their legs out too far while at their desks.
- Manager : Indian original from India. American/American/ Chinese pretended to be American
- HR could be an offended Indian
- I don’t know if you saw women protested in front of Uber building. We are angry being treated badly in Tech. Why women can’t display emotion while men can?
- My experience was not only harassment, but also retaliation and targeting. Apple HR actually favor the manager to manipulate me to use illegal content and punish unreleased Apple content on social media, and down play he just learning...
- Not really. It sounds like a troll post or the story of a paranoid person. Not saying nothing there happened (what's described there is unfortunately quite common IME) but that the post itself is not telling the full story and it's making a huge disservice to people that have been harrassed in the workplaceAug 5, 20186
- I’m happy that Apple has higher plank for hiring than Walmart does. Go call your mom B, you can’t go around in decent corporative environment calling people B, regardless of differences or conflicts. Shooo! No one even interested in your opinion, you are unlikely to be our future coworker
This comment was deleted by original commenter.
- Wolters Kluwer radix8655The context is absolutely ridiculous. I was at a company party and looking at the time on my cell phone to go home and there was a picture of my girlfriend and I on my phone and he decided to comment on the photo. I was like sorry what did you just say and he repeated that and I posted what ensued. Since then I removed the photo so that no other person would think of making those comments. She was completely clothed in the photo. Not a scandalous photo in any country
- I don’t know what is worse? The troubles she faced or how people on Blind are responding to her experience? Its shameful. Well looks like the world is full of sexist assholes. There is nothing oversensitive in what she did.
To all those who feel she did overreact to those “jokes”, wait till your daughter face the same issues in her workplace. You guys need to change.
- Thanks for complements, unfortunately you just proved me right that you have this bad habit of generalizing. Remember every time someone brings in fake case of harassment, other more genuine cases of harassment looses voice because you already abused it and now unfortunately gave people a reason to doubt others too.
Flagged by the community.
- First of all, I assume the OP is an immigrant with limited English skills and that this is posted in genuine frustration.
Secondly, it’s really hard to make out what the facts are. All I see are accusations that a guy was a “bully” and then he pointed the finger back at her. And then a guy made a bad joke and there was “retaliation.”
I don’t condone bullying but can you be more specific? You claim HR covered for him. Maybe they investigated and determined it wasn’t bullying.
And after the crude joke, what was the retaliation by the male friends? Not to excuse the crude joke but I’m guessing HR spoke to him and warned him. Did you expect him to get fired?
On the last issue, same question. Sounds like someone said something that wasn’t right, HR spoke to him and tried to fix it. Were you expecting him to be fired?
And that’s my overall question for you. Are you claiming that Apple is covering for people because they are not immediately firing people for these minor offenses? I think that’s why some people are not taking this seriously.
- Organized team wide bullying of one employee is not a minor offense, it’s crazy shit. It’s clearly incompatible with culture of collaboration, I would love to see whole team fired - whatever shitcode little project they work on is not as important as keeping company culture hospitable
- She’s accused them of bullying yet she hasn’t provided any details of what this means.
I assume this group is innocent until proven guilty. So far her other examples don’t really give me the sense that her take on the situation is accurate. Objectively it sounds like she’s overreacting. That’s not to excuse inappropriate behavior like a crude joke but I think a single offense deserves a warning. She seems to have expected someone to get fired.
- Micro Focus PiquedmoreI'm a woman in tech, 34 years, seen my fair share of harassment over the years and most times, stood up for myself and took care of matters on my own. Very rarely did I ever involve the manager and don't remember ever going to HR about it. Stand up, take care of yourself and zing them with some emasculating comeback...pretty soon, they get the message and treat you as an equal.
- New foreverOk so your food looked phallic and a guy made a joke about it.. who actually gives a fuck
- what was the sexual harassment? Did OP post it in the comments somewhere?
- Wanna to get the whole story, wait for a movie Silicon Valley - the failing Apple
- I agree with Cisco. Anything you say will be considered as whining. Haven't seen one productive discussion on this topic yet.
- Coursera / OtherEch0starI love how people work for a company and think that the company actually cares about them. News flash OP, you ain’t ever gon get what you want unless you’re your own boss.
- HR also try to turn around to accuse me back. Believe or not! It is a shit show.
- Then best option is to keep trail of hr engagement in formal email without getting into hr-accusation tone but to build valid pressure on hr. At the same start looking at plan b, plan c. Life is short and let’s not give space to people in your head you hate to be around with...Aug 4, 20184
- Amazon SupSupSupSexual harrasment not ok at all. But what you call "bullying" might be you having thin skin and not being able to take criticism. Sometimes people deliver their feedback and opinions in harsh ways. That's not related to sexism at all.
Can you give an example on how guys are "bully" towards you?
- Not taking any side, trying my best to bring the discussion back to the point. I’m assuming you might have tried to talk to the person in first place to convey your point and tell him hey this is not what you like or stop here right now! Or did you directly went to HR. Sometimes it could be minor misunderstanding that could balloon in something bit messy. Either way, what HR did is not very ideal too. But take it with the pinch of salt that HR is not your first order of weapons. HR is something one should go when rest of modest options failed. Talk to the guy to convey is modest before it spiral into something this big. I will also suggest you to keep some trail of events documented or in formal email if possible. That does not mean you need to call out who’s fault it is but like keeping formal track so that no one can trap you but at the same keep the tone in formal communication as if you are not intimidating anyone. Again it is a messy territory and there is no binary response to this, of course we do not know other side’s perspective here.
- Microsoft / EngFwwQ08I've heard numerous stories of harassment at Apple, and they all end with the victim quitting in despair and the harassers going unpunished. It can be just as hostile as any other company, and is a good deal more paternalistic than most. I'm sorry that you experienced this!
- It reminds me, my female colleague always bring banana in morning or in morning meeting and asks me if I want banana:( . It just traumatized me now after hearing your story. I am thinking to report this to HR. I have my own banana and I don’t like if someone is offering me 🍌. 😢😲
- You derailing the conversation, but fact that you don’t find crude joke towards single female coworker at the table disturbing tells a lot about you. I’m sure your female coworkers would think of you as a creep and stopped bringing you banana. Don’t trust me? Ask their opinion on situation described by OP.
- Fsgs252, you were right when you said your own reading comprehension is bad. How about you go over all my prior posts to OP trying to console her, supportively tell her what actions she can take n move on? But then there were some points I saw later where she keep hurling abuses over here and started generalizing everyone, so I said enough! What made you think she can hurl abuse and people just patiently respond to her without getting offended? FYI, I know Walmart may not be making great products like Apple did, and certainly I can not generalize but I see better down to earth people in Walmart and I am happy what I work on. You guys bringing your Apple products here make me laugh, that tells a lot about rotten contagious culture of superiority complex in your team I guess or you are fighting like those child 🤪. Glad I have good friends from Apple so I won’t generalize whole Apple is rotten Apple 🙂.
- Fsgs252, she is frustrated and everyone knows that by now but what made you so frustrated and being her side chic in constipation? 🤪 don’t tell the reason is Apple products are better than blah blah blah and Walmart is blah blah is the reason, I heard that before already. Tell me something new 🍿🍿🍿