Should salary negotiations be banned because of sexism?

Capital One finesse
Apr 8, 2018 54 Comments

"“The research evidence is overwhelming,” Adam Grant, who has partnered with Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg on her Lean In campaign, told Mashable. “The data are also clear that when women negotiate assertively, they are often penalized for violating communal gender stereotypes.”

A UC Berkeley study also found that the women negotiators are often considered easier to mislead than men. As a result, women are disproportionately deceived, increasing their risk of entering into deals under false pretenses."

Hence why former CEO Pao banned salary negotiations.

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TOP 54 Comments
  • Salesforce ubIp47
    These studies are about 10% facts and 90% politics. When they fixed the “imbalance” at my company they admitted there was not much discrepancy at all.
    Apr 8, 2018 16
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      You mean it says UC Berkeley did the study.......
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Salesforce Jzsb19
      Confirmation bias... you are correct but also being emotionally manipulated. Try and see the distinction. I’m trying to help.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      Are you a guy because speaking from experience this is not bias lol... If this was bias 7/10 executives would not be WHITE male.
      Apr 9, 2018
    • Salesforce Jzsb19
      I’m not disagreeing with your observations and I totally support encouraging more women and minorities to enter the tech industry. But don’t be deceived, there are a thousand ways to explain the current situation other than “the entire world is sexist and racist”. Don’t let them use your emotions to control you.
      Apr 9, 2018
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      Most of the world is racist and sexist? If that's not true why are a heavy majority of leaders in this world men LOL
      Apr 9, 2018
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Amazon / Product
      strongsad7

      Amazon Product

      PRE
      Amazon
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      Sr Product Manager, Amazon in Seattle
      strongsad7more
      Why in the world are you assuming they're incapable, if there's a blanket ban on all comp negotiation? Don't you think the candidate for a critical executive role like this will have dozens and dozens of experiences negotiating that they can point to?

      Hell if you're negotiating comp then the company has already decided to hire you. Do you think it happens often that companies pull c suite job offers because the candidate accepts the offer too easily?
      Apr 8, 2018
    • New ☕👌
      I'm not making the assumption they can't negotiate, you are.

      The only reason you would make a blanket ban on negotiating is because you believe that some candidates, in this case women, can't adequately represent themselves. If you believe they're just as capable of negotiating, which is a core aspect of their job function as an executive, let them do it.

      If you believe underrepresented candidates are discriminated against, banning negotiating will just lock candidates into that discrimination. If women get lower offers by default, they're now stuck with those lower offers and can no longer demand fair market value for their skills.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Amazon / Product
      strongsad7

      Amazon Product

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      Amazon
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      Sr Product Manager, Amazon in Seattle
      strongsad7more
      You guys are shifting the argument back to op's. I'm trying to understand only why negotiating comp would be a requirement for an executive or sales job. I don't think it is. The only reasoning I've seen so far is, "it's obvious. "
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      No it's the fact that women are socially conditioned to be more submissive and being assertive is seen as a male trait. Hence why penalized.

      Also, most jobs are not executive jobs. In addition, just because someone can negotiate their package does not mean they can run a business well.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Amazon / Product
      strongsad7

      Amazon Product

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      Amazon
      BIO
      Sr Product Manager, Amazon in Seattle
      strongsad7more
      So I went back and looked at my first reply, and I wrote poorly and it was confusing, my bad. I asked about negotiation broadly for an exec, when I meant to only ask about comp negotiation. Sorry for the confusion.

      To start over and simplify:

      OP: Should we put a blanket ban on comp negotiation?
      YourMamma: No. Plenty of jobs - especially exec jobs - require negotiation.

      My question: what does the fact that exec jobs require negotiation have to do with whether we should ban negotiating comp or not?
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Microsoft @russia.co
    We should let the goverment set the pay for every job so salaries are never imbalanced again.
    Apr 8, 2018 3
    • Google Anonazn
      We should just set the pay to be the same for all jobs
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Fitbit a93ksm
      We should just move to NK
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Fitbit a93ksm
      They did it wrong. Now let's watch NK do it right.
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Northrop Grumman / Eng Kolmogorov
    Salaries for all positions should probably just be publicly available, it empowers the employees.

    Did they say what that penalty was? And I hope that last paragraph is just outright false.
    Apr 8, 2018 3
    • Pure Storage Phamt27
      I don’t really want everybody to know what I earn and I don’t care about what you earn.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Northrop Grumman / Eng Kolmogorov
      It doesn't have to necessarily be the same way executive pay is done. But any position you apply for could have the salary posted up front.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng Lverage
      I'd like for the Min, Max, Median, P10, P90 to be published.

      No personal data revealed, and all of the data needed when accepting an offer.
      Apr 8, 2018
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      How would banning negotiations lower cost? The candidate can just work for another company then if their salary isn't high enough.
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Capital One finesse
    OP
    There are obviously more men in this post than women because a lot of you all are missing the point. The point is women are socially conditioned to be submissive and being assertive is seen as a male trait so when women assert themselves they are penalized. There's been studies done with the same resumes but with different names of two genders and both female and male employers thought the resume with the male name was highly more competent.

    Reading this thread I see a lot of misinformation and myths spread around (like why men are only being paid higher because they're usually more in engineering jobs). I'm not saying I agree vehemently but also think about why Tesla banned car price negotiation and it's worked well? Just because something is always done this way does not mean it's the best. If every company did this people will just work for the company paying them the highest and it's easy to see how transparent it is.
    Apr 8, 2018 4
    • Amazon aqbE86
      I’m a woman. I’m not oppressed. I was not socially conditioned to be submissive, especially as a child to a single mother in the 80s when Murphy Brown and shoulder pads demanded I suppress any distinctively feminine traits.

      I don’t believe in a wage gap when college degrees and work experience are factored in. Great stuff by Christina Sommers on this.

      I don’t want or need special treatment because of my genitalia, and frankly find it insulting that society (feminism) is suggesting I’m not capable of success on my own.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      She is one person? It's systematic? Regardless what she believes in studies show otherwise. If there is no special treatment because of genitalia why are all executive level positions filled by a vast majority of men?
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Amazon aqbE86
      And I can show you numerous studies that will contradict what you’re saying and show bias towards hiring and promoting women. Look up the Australian resume study from last summer.

      There are lots of successful women in executive positions. What’s the goal and how do we know when we achieved it? Is it simply when there’s a flat 50% division of the sexes in executive management? I think it’s already been met because I believe women have equal access and opportunity in their careers. I think the disproportionate numbers are more likely to indicate that many women choose not pursue executive levels rather than systemic discrimination.

      Have you had a negative experience being a woman and feeling like you were held back because of it? Bias and discrimination certainly may exist in some areas but I honestly don’t know any woman personally or even third hand who has ever had an experience like this.

      The bias and negativity I do encounter often comes from other women who don’t think the role of motherhood carries as much value as working outside the home. It’s much more respectable and noble today to prioritize your career over your family.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      7 in 10 senior executives are WHITE men. How do you argue that's not systematic oppression? Do you honestly believe there's no discrimination?
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Salesforce Jzsb19
    The best way to oppress a people is to first convince them they are already oppressed and then show the only way to out is to relinquish control to a ruler.
    Apr 8, 2018 1
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      Are you saying women aren't oppressed lmaooo
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Microsoft
    yMcg47

    Microsoft

    BIO
    Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
    yMcg47more
    This is like banning peeing standing up
    Apr 8, 2018 5
    • Microsoft Lotl
      Well, we do have an extra accommodation there. /s
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      It’s not extra
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Microsoft Godh16
      Woman also want to Pee standing up like men
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Microsoft Lotl
      @ yMcg47 urinals are an extra bit of kit.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Don’t they have tampon and stuff in the female side? Seems even
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Salesforce Jzsb19
    But I’m clearly sexist because I said that
    Apr 8, 2018 0
  • LinkedIn
    Apagitnov

    LinkedIn

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    Amazon, Google
    Apagitnovmore
    So just to get this straight, the company now sets the price/comp upfront for a role and that's it? Or does the co "reveal" the details after the interview process where you are invested a bit more?
    Apr 8, 2018 2
    • Apple / Eng yVcI11
      CA now requires published salary ranges, at least.
      Apr 8, 2018
    • Capital One finesse
      OP
      Wait you can ask for range even during negotiate?
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Netflix fs92
    It's a prisoner's dilemma. The first company to stop negotiating will start to lose talent to competitors.
    Apr 8, 2018 1
    • Northrop Grumman / Eng Kolmogorov
      Not if they still pay well.
      Apr 8, 2018
  • Microsoft Godh16
    What I am asking as a man is that I get paid as much as my woman colleagues
    Apr 8, 2018 0