Stay at FB or go to Snap?

Facebook / Eng vlMg30
Aug 26, 2018 143 Comments

I’m currently an E4 at Facebook making around $295k/year. 5 YOE.

On a lark I interviewed at Snap, and they made me an L4 (their equivalent of FB/Google’s E5) offer for $465k/year total comp. It’s in their Mountain View office.

$190k salary
$187k annual equity
$75k target bonus
$15k sign on

= $465k year one, $499k Y2, $546k Y3, and $593k Y4 (due to equity refreshers). They’ve dropped their backdated vesting schedule and the 1 year cliff; you vest monthly.

Facebook doesn’t do counteroffers, and it’d be at least another year at minimum before I could make E5 there.

I’m pretty worried about Snap’s future success and the follow-on effects (morale, attrition, recruiting, etc.). On the other hand the money’s hard to ignore, and they’d have to drop quite a bit before it’d be worth less.

I like both teams equally well, though I don’t have much of a read on Snap’s engineering culture.

What do?

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TOP 143 Comments
  • Snapchat Sksuhhh
    Careful...

    I have never heard of yearly cash bonus here at snap. It is not like fb bonus where everyone gets it, even meets expectations. You may want this clarified.

    You are right to be worried.

    I guarantee you 200% that you will be a happier person working at fb. If snap can turn it around, then perhaps it might be not that much worse.

    It may be possible for you to get an okay offer for level 5 at some other company.

    I currently work at snap at L4 and was e5 at fb. (Btw L4 currently pays better than fb e5 but has less expectations than fb e5).

    That said, it might be worth giving snap a shot for a year. I did, I gained a lot of perspective. Things have been very bad at the company for the past year but how the company is being run is getting better everyday. But just be warned that things are still miles away from where fb is, in literally every dimension.
    Aug 27, 2018 10
    • Snapchat Sksuhhh
      maybe fb, google or Uber
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat Muted
      I agree that the last year has been bad but also agree it’s getting better in any dimension. It’s been a public company run like a startup, and it hasn’t work so leadership seems to be making all the right changes, it just can’t happen fast enough.
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat Muted
      Also MTV office is nice and chill. Immune to a lot of BS.
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat nrf
      Every day I regret leaving Google for Snap. I jumped ship for the $$$ and it was not worth it.
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat Muted
      Just go back dude. Plenty of people have gone google snap google. If they won’t take you back and match what you make at snap maybe it’s not Snap to blame.
      Aug 27, 2018
  • New / Eng poRd04
    For sure Snap, the only risk is that the value of annusl equity can go down, but it's so high that if your tc drops to 400, it's still good
    Aug 26, 2018 7
    • Apple / Eng cho Chang
      This is a real issue.. only count on 377k TC, as u may not get the bonuses and refreshers.
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat noyogurt
      You get refresher, no cash bonus
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Snapchat / Eng camera-co
      The bonus absolutely isn't going to happen. Recruiting is lead by a man who believes manipulation is a useful tactic at getting ahead, and that includes lying.
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Snapchat Dicawho
      The bonus absolutely is going to happen. After last year’s fiasco, if we did no bonuses again, there would be mass outrage and management knows they can’t afford that.
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Snapchat noyogurt
      That is actually exactly what they can afford. People leaving lowers the costs because people that are the leaver joined more than one years ago. So that they have the more stocks.
      Sep 1, 2018
  • LinkedIn / Eng LinkedIn?
    Dayumm... I'd hit that TC!
    Aug 26, 2018 0
  • Google bckpckpls
    Wow that’s a $170k raise. Go to Snap and ride it out. G/FB will always be there for you
    Aug 26, 2018 5
    • Uber
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Uber djduh
      ROFL no way Uber can match that offer
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Google ACowswami
      Uber will. But it imaginary valuation of the company. Company would be worth 1T soon, so your total comp is 1M!!!
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Acowswami, you know Google sucks
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Google ACowswami
      Yeah I know. But still better than Uber by a long way.
      Aug 29, 2018
  • Workday / Eng
    blindster

    Workday Eng

    PRE
    Yahoo
    blindstermore
    $465 TC with 5 YOE, what else can I say other than CONGRATS! 🎊
    Aug 26, 2018 2
    • Facebook / Design MPKBldng1
      Noob here. What does YOE mean?
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng :?
      Years of experience
      Aug 27, 2018
  • New / Eng LouisLitt
    Also it is a good time to join snap. The shares are at a historic low, but I assume they would bounce back. They seem to focus on innovation and may have gotta few things wrong, but I think they can always do well than present and keep innovating!
    Aug 26, 2018 5
    • Facebook coffee?
      “but I assume they would bounce back.” - a dangerous assumption for any company that’s at their historic lows.
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Facebook AyyoLeMayo
      Time to take a second mortgage and put it on snap?
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Oracle / Eng
      pycharm

      Oracle Eng

      PRE
      Stealth Worker
      BIO
      Control over your own life is an illusion.
      pycharmmore
      This is how we know we’re in a bubble
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Uber mlojvffy
      HAHA this comment aged well
      Dec 14, 2018
    • Snapchat BlindAsA🦇
      It sure has now
      Jul 9
  • Google / Eng xgFH17
    You need to take it. If you don’t every stressor in your life especially around work will be amplified 10x based on that single “what if”.

    As others said, you can go back or come here easily.
    Aug 26, 2018 4
    • Uber
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Dropbox / Eng
      Yngwie

      Dropbox Eng

      PRE
      Jane Street Capital
      Yngwiemore
      Uber
      Aug 27, 2018
    • PeerStreet / Other
      MonGarl162

      PeerStreet Other

      PRE
      Amazon
      MonGarl162more
      Uber
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Microsoft Satya007
      Uber
      Jul 20
  • Facebook / Eng vlMg30
    OP
    Just an update, if anyone’s still following along: My future manager clarified that the “yearly annual bonus” is very much discretionary.

    It’s funded based on the size of Snap’s company performance (I think their internal goals are pretty reasonable, though) and the size of the pool determines how many people get it, with a bias for high performers. Thus the better the year, the more widely it’s shared.

    So, it’s really a $392k offer, not a $465k one.

    Still pretty decent though.
    Aug 30, 2018 4
    • Apple a1z2x3c4
      Still pretty decent without even considering the annual bonus. How are annual RSU’s given? I will assume it’s tied with one’s perf review but for L4, is 188K (47K x 4) the target number? What are your thoughts now on the offer?
      Aug 30, 2018
    • Snapchat / Eng
      snapbryo

      Snapchat Eng

      PRE
      Google
      snapbryomore
      Your future manager sounds like a reasonable and honest person.
      Aug 30, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng vlMg30
      OP
      Yeah, he definitely seems to be. Working with him is definitely a factor drawing me in.

      Right, I think $188k/4 is the expected yearly refresh grant for L4 for meeting expectations. Your performance raises and lowers the refresher (same at FB).

      I think it’s a good offer and opportunity. If anything’s holding me back, it’s not feeling fully burnt out at Facebook. I’ve been here just short of two years and things are fine, and I’ll miss many of the people. OTOH, $100k bump + promotion.
      Aug 30, 2018
    • Snapchat / Eng
      snapbryo

      Snapchat Eng

      PRE
      Google
      snapbryomore
      Being at Snap, here's how I see this trade off: at FB, you'll get more stable career growth. You'll be able to focus on the craft and learn to do things really well. You won't feel like you're making a big impact on the company or users. At Snap, things will be more hectic. You'll need to learn by doing and will need to solve immediate problems constantly. You'll feel like you're making an impact but will also feel a sense of risk and less stability.
      Aug 30, 2018
  • Snapchat HyCn25
    Leadership is trying to address many issues. And morale is very very low, many are preparing interview.
    Aug 27, 2018 8
    • Amazon WACC
      Evan Spiegel needs to be replaced as CEO. He's a young kid who got lucky with a dumb app and doesn't know how to run a company.
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
      Never gonna happen; he and his cofounder have all of the voting power, so they can't be voted out.
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat / Eng camera-co
      I'm confident that leadership is trying to fix issues, I'm not confident that they actually will succeed at fixing them in any reasonable time frame such that the company can retain talent.
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Snapchat Mavericks
      Evan needs an Eric Schmidt or Sheryl Sandburg to help him, but he might be too proud to hire one
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Microsoft Isisneyie
      +1, horrible CEO
      Sep 10, 2018
  • Facebook Woho
    Go for snap, but keep your interview skills up to date! They may even lay off you..
    Aug 26, 2018 0
  • Snapchat / Eng lolll
    Don't count on the target bonus, and take equity as 80% of it current worth. Expect the morale, culture the worst you can imagine(like Amazon). If you can accept that, come to Snap.
    Aug 28, 2018 12
    • Snapchat QVnr72
      ^ Couldn’t say it better
      Aug 29, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
      Interesting. I'd be working out of the Seattle office if I go, and my read on the situation is that Snap went around and basically poached a lot of fairly experienced (5-10 YoE) talent from the various Amazon/FB/Google/Microsoft offices in the area--probably with the same huge offers that they made me and OP. I originally interviewed in LA, which had a totally different vibe (lots of recent grads from various CA schools). Almost everybody I've talked to has joined within the past 6-8 months, and they're spinning up a lot of new projects, teams, and initiatives. Could be good or could be a shitshow; I've seen it both ways.

      I've been with Amazon for over four years, but I'm not looking to leave because I dislike the chaos or politics (those are annoying, but workable), but more because I'm tired of the low fucking bar, misguided notion of what it means to be "customer obsessed," and "good enough for government work" (in the facetious sense) mindset that pervades engineering and product launches here. I'm also a little bit tired of the God Emperor CEO complex, though I respect Bezos a hell of a lot more than I respect Spiegel. Is Snap more of the same?
      Aug 29, 2018
    • Snapchat / Eng camera-co
      Snap has better talent on average compared to Amazon, but Amazon has more amazing people at the top (principal/senior principal). The god emperor thing isn't so much the cult leader thing you see with Bezos or Zuckerberg as it is that Evan makes big decisions based on personal intuition rather than data and trusting his reports.

      Snap has poached large numbers of senior people from a bunch of companies, but again, there is a reputation that these people are just resting and vesting, not that these people aren't otherwise good at their jobs. Snap isn't culty among engineers, in fact people don't hold back on talking shit about Snap.

      I think based on what you say, you should join. This said, I'd try to get as many favorable terms written into your offer, because without that it's very possible nothing gets honored. I believe that your recruiter believes your target bonus is that high, but I also believe that they have no clue what's going on and you could easily end up with just the stock grant money, cash salary, and sign on. Consider taking your offer letter to a lawyer and do what you need to insure you actually get paid.
      Aug 29, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
      Gotcha. Yeah, I came from a startup with a very high performance culture and was shocked to find out how weak the average SDE is here--but like you said, there's a remarkably bimodal distribution of talent (many of the principals I've worked with are indeed excellent), and it's safe to say that a lot of the complaints about WLB and performance management here come from people who were borderline to begin with and were mostly hired to pad the on-call rotation and burn on ops fires or the annual talent review stack (yes, there are teams with legitimately bad operational problems, but genuine cases of that are easy to filter).

      Really tough decision. It's a substantial TC bump (even just on base/on-hire equity with an assumed 30% drop in RSU price--I'm an L6 here, but near the bottom of the band since I was promoted into it and my own on-hire grant has run out) and I like what I've heard from the teams and managers I've chatted with, but the risk is evident. At this point, I'm halfway out the door at Amazon, so it's mostly a comparison between Snap and other (strictly potential) opportunities elsewhere (I can pretty much take my time to interview and scout out other jobs).
      Aug 29, 2018
    • Snapchat Dicawho
      Ive been here a few years and agree with most of this, but I think things are becoming much more transparent lately and I haven’t seen anything crazy happen to make me think otherwise. The company is growing up, the hard way.

      Also, things were WAY worse in terms of secrecy before and after IPO, but because the money seemed promising, stock was high, and the press and users loved our brand, morale was fine. It will come back, or it won’t, and you can always go back to amazon.
      Aug 29, 2018
  • Snapchat Widbdkeihd
    The offers are good but I don't think the company is getting better and it isn't worth it. I agree with the above poster - use your offer to negotiate with other companies.

    They are really trying to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic. All the cost savings talk is a joke when compared to executive payouts. You will be happier at Google or Facebook, for sure.
    Aug 27, 2018 2
    • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
      The executive payouts are a huge, huge, huge red flag to me. It implies that they have little to no real faith in the company as a standalone entity, or even in an acquisition; I'm not sure I want to join a company where the best likely exit is an acquisition (I've been through one before, and while it wasn't a nightmare--there weren't any layoffs or consolidations and the integration process was somewhat gradual--it definitely wasn't something I'd actively look to do again).
      Aug 27, 2018
    • Snapchat Dicawho
      Also note there are a lot of laid off people (hundreds from this year) with an axe to grind on Blind, Glassdoor, Twitter, or wherever you will listen to them. Talk to people who actually work at snap.

      Anyone who actually works here will tell you how things are drastically improving. Don’t listen to anyone on blind or Glassdoor, just talk to real people on the ground. Taking career advice from anonymous haters, shills, and trolls is really bad (yes including me).
      Aug 28, 2018
  • Snapchat 8384728194
    Snap has 2.6 stars on Glassdoor and I suspect that the positive reviews are fake. You got an offer for a level higher than yours because snap can't hire and this is the strategy they are following now. Apply to other companies and use your Snap offer to negotiate.
    Aug 27, 2018 1
    • Google Clck58
      ^ This.
      Aug 27, 2018
  • Snapchat Mavericks
    To OP, just be careful. Around this time in 2017, Snap was giving out these massive bases and equity packages to bring people in, and a lot of those guys were later laid off in March because Snap realized they overspent and could not afford to pay out. Some of those laid off were hired for less than a month. Not sure if Snap is repeating the same cycle again because it didn’t learn its lesson yet. Only this time Snap has even less cash left
    Aug 28, 2018 5
    • Snapchat Dicawho
      Do you even work at Snap? Why do you keep saying “they” as if there’s some big brother making all these decisions? My team is hiring (our decision) and I can guarantee you we aren’t dumb enough to just hire so we can fire people. You must be trolling.
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Apple a1z2x3c4
      When I interviewed in June, the recruiter emphasized that they don’t want to hire like before in an uncontrolled way. She was of the opinion that they really want to only hire fir teams where they are sure of specific needs. But not sure how much this is true or if these guidelines are followed while hiring.

      On Snap’s remaining cash, based on current situation and assuming they don’t turn profitable in near future (which may or may not be true), how long they can self sustain themselves?
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Snapchat Mavericks
      It is pretty likely Snap will try to raise more money somehow when cash is getting low, something like the recent injection of money from the Saudis to keep it going
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Apple a1z2x3c4
      That’s what I feel as well; there will be some new funding if cash dries up with no profit in sight. Even though DAU decreased this quarter, Snap still has a decent user base and DAU can increase in coming quarters (app redesign, etc).
      Aug 28, 2018
    • Snapchat
      CandyPaint

      Snapchat

      PRE
      Google
      CandyPaintmore
      This is not true at all...
      Aug 29, 2018
  • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
    Ha--I'm in the exact same situation! The offer, YoE, comp, all of it.

    Set up some calls or meetings with the hiring manager(s) if you can. Like any job, it's mostly going to come down to your immediate team--I asked some tough questions and liked the answers I got in response, so I'm now seriously considering it.
    Aug 26, 2018 1
    • Facebook / Eng vlMg30
      OP
      Oh, cool. I’m a Blind n00b, but I think I sent you a PM.
      Aug 26, 2018
  • Snapchat noyogurt
    If you're upset moving to the Los Angelrs and leaving again in a year don't do it. Risk is very high.
    Sep 1, 2018 6
    • Snapchat
      CandyPaint

      Snapchat

      PRE
      Google
      CandyPaintmore
      Op offer is in mtv and why do you think it’s a risk?? They know anyone from the bay will hire us back at any time. I have a recruiter from every faang company I’ve worked for that reaches out every 6 months.
      Sep 1, 2018
    • Snapchat noyogurt
      Missed MTV, sorry. If moving the risk is if you have a spouse/children and moving is a big deal. Snap is a very risky place to work Even if you believe in it's future there's no denying the risk and volatility.
      Sep 2, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
      I don't know how Snap would be able to get people down to LA right now if they don't already have some connection to the area (family/friends/etc) or otherwise really want to move there. Frankly, the only reason I'm seriously considering my own offer is because I wouldn't have to relocate--even with the numbers on paper, the risk of getting caught out in a city that doesn't have a lot of great fallback options (if you get laid off or the company totally tanks) is far too high given their current state and reputation.
      Sep 2, 2018
    • Apple a1z2x3c4
      Did you get an offer from Snap in Seattle? How big are they in Seattle?
      Sep 2, 2018
    • Amazon / Eng kwq7812
      Yeah, though I also had the option to join some teams down in LA if I wanted. After talking to a bunch of different people, I decided I liked the vibe and teams/projects in the Seattle office better. Not keen on relocating, either (I would do it for NYC, but not SF/LA).

      They have a couple floors in an office tower in Belltown. I'd guess there there are around 100-200 people working there; mostly ex-Amazon/FB/Microsoft/Google. Still undecided: team/manager/project/offer numbers all seem to be on point, but I'm really having a hard time getting excited about the company/product at a higher level, and the risk is substantial.
      Sep 3, 2018
  • New oQfU54
    300k/year and 5 yoe. Why I still in start ups with 100k/y salary with 7 yoe? Damn, time to change company
    Aug 26, 2018 1
    • Lockheed Martin / Eng
      zVdH

      Lockheed Martin Eng

      PRE
      Lockheed Martin
      BIO
      Communications engineer
      zVdHmore
      I feel you man, I feel you.
      Aug 26, 2018
  • Snapchat QVnr72
    Join if you care about the money, but this will probably be the most irritating workplace you’ll ever experience
    Aug 29, 2018 1
  • Facebook Look2Move
    Mind to share, what’s the general refresher and target bonus % for L4 at Snap? Your comp sounds unrealistic as it indicates 40% bonus (of base), and 187k refresher; whereas typically it’s 15% bonus and $120k refresher for E5.

    Snap won’t sustain the lofty MC at a rate of losing 9-figures every quarter. Keep that in mind, but short-term why not try? As the “delta” is too high, at the worst you’d still make higher!
    Aug 26, 2018 5
    • Facebook / Eng vlMg30
      OP
      The refresher is just your initial grant divided by 4, granted every year. As for the bonus, I didn’t get much from the recruiter other than it seems to be set by level, not based on your personal salary.

      (The 15% and $120k numbers you mentioned — are those FB’s?)
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Uber / Eng
      sight

      Uber Eng

      PRE
      Facebook, Cisco
      sightmore
      That is not always true. Should check. My refreshers at FB were less than my original grant /4
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng vlMg30
      OP
      Yes, I know, I’m just mentioning what the recruiter told me. The Y2-Y4 numbers are from them.
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Facebook / Eng vlMg30
      OP
      (I think FB’s refreshers are a bit lower than Snap’s)
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Facebook coffee?
      15% and 120k numbers are for FB E5, yes.
      Aug 27, 2018
  • Google bigfatliar
    Do you guys think Snap will survive? Don’t take it in the wrong way. I have some stocks...
    Aug 26, 2018 2
    • Microsoft UMbR31
      I think Google or some other giant might acquire them. There's no other young people social media company out there.
      Aug 26, 2018
    • Intel assertNull
      Yes this is the question to be asked. But that would be fortune telling to answer this. And surviving have a broad meaning e.g. Yahoo. Thus Idk. But I am sure of one thing: Zuck will go behind them relentlessly. And he is better at that than Page going after FB once.

      Based on my analysis, I think the real annual value of the offer in 2022 is either ~$250K + insecurity or ~1M + long term success. Would you take it even in the worst case? Then go for it if you also liked the position.
      Aug 26, 2018

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