Tell me why we need or do not need a wall?

Microsoft GeneralMan
Jan 26 148 Comments

Check your politics. To have a useful discussion here you need to check your politics at the door.

For transparency I am for a wall and secure border, I think 50-100B spent on border security is much better spent than foreign aid. We have been neglecting our border and our immigration system and we need to invest in it.

Make it easier for people who should be here to come and stay.

Make it harder for people who should not be here or circumvented the correct way to come here.

TC: $240
YOE: 12

140 VOTES SELECT ONLY ONE ANSWER
VOTE VIEW RESULT

comments

Want to comment? LOG IN or SIGN UP
TOP 148 Comments
  • Microsoft moneytree
    Your poll is not complete. Where is the " I support border security but a wall is not the right solution" option?
    Jan 26 13
    • TripAdvisor owlwise
      Take everything us? What do trumpsters even produce? All of them are in the taker red states. Most are addicted to opioids or living in trailer parks. You wouldn't even know what to take
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      Hmm and lots of them apparently work in tech. 🤓🤔

      Some of these “Trumpsters” might be in significant leadership positions inside Tech. Bet that really grinds your gears.
      Jan 26
    • TripAdvisor owlwise
      Most of them* are in the taker red states. Doesn't really matter if a handful of them are in tech. We can replace them easily.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      I live in the bluest state possible in the most liberal county in the US. Lots of us conservatives just sitting around here, some of us in very high positions.

      Sit there all you want and think we won’t elect Trump again.
      Jan 26
    • TripAdvisor owlwise
      Sure elect your fat orange loser again, we can whip him around some more
      Jan 26
  • Amazon akznn
    We don’t it’s that simple.
    Jan 26 10
    • Amazon akznn
      It’s actually been shown that those captured for crimes from other countries are here legally far more than illegally. This is trumps illegitimate argument, too much watching Fox News
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft leet_away
      The argument that illegals commit fewer crimes than natives is a myth. It’s probably true for legal immigrants and we have the records to verify that claim. But who has a registry of all the illegals? These are just estimations from various think tanks which have an agenda and the fact that their reports are contradictory is telling.
      Jan 26
    • Amazon woznxb
      Start showing reliable stats
      Jan 26
    • Conduent Milly
      There are no reliable statistics on crime committed by illegal aliens. Immigration status is not commonly or consistently reported by police. In some jurisdictions the non-reporting of illegal immigrant status by police is deliberate. Where I live the police don't. The reason is that illegal immigrants have car accidents, for example, and rather than hang around exchanging car insurance and waiting for the police they run away. This actually happened to me - my car got totalled and the other car, an older pickup truck was damaged and the driver ran away - on foot. Abandoned the pickup truck, refused to report accident to his insurance and never answered calls and visits from the police. They run because they are afraid of being deported - and tough luck to me. If we don't put every possible barrier to entry in place then I'm safer. I want a wall and a modern visa tracking system.
      Jan 26
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Texas is the only state that collects criminal data about undocumented immigrants as far as I’m aware.

      “There were 785 total homicide convictions in Texas in 2015. Of those, native-born Americans were convicted of 709 homicides, illegal immigrants were convicted of 46 homicides, and legal immigrants were convicted of 30 homicides. The homicide conviction rate for native-born Americans was 3.1 per 100,000, 2.6 per 100,000 for illegal immigrants, and 1 per 100,000 for legal immigrants (Figure 2). In 2015, homicide conviction rates for illegal and legal immigrants were 16 percent and 67 percent below those of natives, respectively.”

      https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant

      But like with most crimes, criminologists tend to use victimization rather than convictions. Convictions can be biased or skewed. However this rate is also lower for undocumented immigrants.

      https://www.businessinsider.com/undocumented-aliens-violent-crime-murder-statistics-data-2018-8

      Most of the crime surrounding the border have to do with criminalizing migration for poor people looking for work. Militarizing the border is not the solution, the militarized border is the problem.
      Jan 26
  • Apple tk4fjd
    5billion for a walk versus 150billion per year burden caused by illegals on the system, plus the cost of deaths due to drug overdoses and human trafficking
    Jan 26 9
    • Microsoft bsjsiibh
      5B is not even enough to build all the wall, that's just the number they are trying to negotiate to get started. The whole thing, just in terms of material, land handling and initial building work, is estimated at +20B. After that the country will have extra burden on maintaining it and keeping it secure, not to mention the roads, and other posts needed for the people that would be working there.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft 4655434b
      Because the supreme leader himself hires illegals, but that’s good for his bottom line
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft bsjsiibh
      Also, on the drug abuse, do note that the main reason why most drugs in the US come from the southern countries is mainly economical. It's cheaper there. If you cut that supply passing through the south border you only make it so the other markets (Asia, middle East, for example) fill the void. And even if you block those, the domestic sources, which are the third main source of hard drugs in the US (behind south America and Asia) will take over. You cannot stop them selling if there is people demanding it, it's economics, especially when the stuff is already illegal. You can only prevent more deaths due to drugs if you focus on helping Americans to stop buying that shit.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft 4655434b
      Also keep in mind that a large % of that doesn’t come across land border, it comes on water... coast guard openly admits that they have enough manpower to respond to about 20% of know drug runs...
      Jan 26
    • Apple tjbdfv5
      They should enforce E-verify
      Feb 24
  • Microsoft GeneralMan
    OP
    0 explanations for why we DON’T need a wall. Lots of whiny opinions though.

    Somebody architect a logical explanation for why we don’t need a wall.

    “They aren’t effective”
    Yes they are.

    “It won’t stop bad people”
    Yes it will.

    Next.
    Jan 26 7
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      Usually the wall gets buried 30 or so feet in the ground to discourage tunnels.

      Tunnels are very very expensive and labor intensive. I’m ok if we made that the only available logical attack vector. 90% of people aren’t going to tunnel.
      Jan 26
    • Google ganged
      Tell me why you need a wall first.

      "They're effective"
      No they aren't

      "They stop bad people"
      No they don't

      "They look pretty"
      Nope

      Next!
      Jan 26
    • New / Eng i i i
      Wall definitely works. Border crossers would do multiple attempts every day until they sneak in in the past. Border patrol would catch them and return and they would try the next day. Now they need to finance a guy with ladder, etc.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      Ganged, don’t try to think I don’t have a perfectly good logic for a wall. And I’ve been very vocal about it.

      Walls work in perfect harmony as a Layer 1 to a defense in depth strategy. Layer 2 might be sensors around or on the wall, layer 3 is armed agents that respond to those alarms / patrol, layer 4 might be drones and IR cameras.

      Not one of those options is fool-proof on their own. But we should take a defense in depth approach that encompasses multiple defenses that work together.

      Would you disagree?
      Jan 26
    • Facebook / Eng
      mrballz

      Facebook Eng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      mrballzmore
      OP, read what the Cato institute (hardly a leftist outlet) wrote about a border wall. https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

      I am all for better border security. I want experts to decide what is the best way to spend our money, though.

      In some areas (urban) a wall is probably necessary, even if it just slows people down, because once they are on the other side they can just disappear in minutes. Out in the desert high-tech detection - like the thing Palmer Luckey is working on - could be better.

      You still need manpower, because at the end someone needs to show up and apprehend illegal crossers.
      Jan 27
  • Cisco hkkbfedvh
    It’s like a gate for your driveway. If you can afford it(which the US can) why not? If the neighborhood is bad around you, the cost gets more justified. If people keep coming onto your property, you will likely get one even if the people have good intentions. Why not have one? It costs <1% of the federal budget.....why are we shutting down the government over such a small amount of money? Our federal deficit grows by more than that every day yet nobody cares. US government is the worst at money management. Very very scary.
    Jan 26 6
    • Amazon akznn
      Our budget? We are trillions of dollars in debt, our budget is Monopoly money. I have tons of money on credit, why not spend it...not a good financial or political plan.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft moneytree
      What if someone just broke the lock on your driveway gate and got in? Ultimately your recourse will be law enforcement. And that's what we need
      Jan 26
    • Cisco hkkbfedvh
      The wall cost includes more law enforcement....either way a gate helps discourage people from coming on your property. If it didn’t work, rich people (countries?) wouldn’t have them. The Great Wall of China was build for a reason, don’t try to tell me it doesn’t work.....
      Jan 26
    • Amazon akznn
      What the hell are we so worried about that we need a wall? We afraid of people trying to make a better life for themselves? Please don’t say drug deterrent because anyone who is smart knows 95% of drugs coming up through Mexico are not on peoples backs. So if it’s not drugs, it’s not stopping illegal guns from coming in and families that want to make a better life are those coming across for the most part, what is so important about this wall? False security people.
      Jan 26
    • Zenreach PrezDTrump
      Lol u hide inside walls don't u
      Jan 26
  • Amazon / Eng relphy
    I find it hard to believe that constructing a wall wouldn’t pay for itself. Seems like dems are trying to stop trump from a very visible win.

    I say that as a Democrat voter.
    Jan 26 7
    • Microsoft moneytree
      What? On the contrary you would have to increase patrol to check if anyone is putting up a ladder, or has tried to damage the wall
      Jan 26
    • Zenreach PrezDTrump
      LOL MAINTENANCE FOR WALL? how many times do u need to maintain the walls in ur room? That's right, like almost never. Silly liberals :)
      Jan 26
    • Conduent Milly
      And using electronic security would be free?
      Jan 26
    • Apple sane
      It will be much cheaper than patrolling
      Jan 29
    • Conduent Mile
      Still need patrols - but easier to focus effort with a wall and electronics...
      Jan 29
  • Cisco hkkbfedvh
    My logic makes perfect sense. Yes I agree don’t spend money, but to say that to a politician is silly, they spend spend spend. So if they are going to spend, it would prefer them not to make a huge deal over such a small amount of money. In comparison to other things the government wastes money on, this wall expenditure is literally <1%, nothing.

    Let’s say you make $200k a year, own a $1M home and your wife says she wants a gate for the driveway. She doesn’t feel secure. You already have a security system so you don’t think it’s necessary. Your wife says she’s going to divorce you if she doesn’t get her gate....are you really going to divorce your wife over $2k? Really? You may have bigger problems because your wife and you can’t compromise, but to create such problems because of $2k (assuming the gate costs $2k or 1% of your total income/budget), is stupid....
    Jan 26 3
    • Microsoft moneytree
      If you are doing the analogy, do it right.
      In this story, the husband is $10 Million in debt. There are kids in the house who can't be taken to the doctor because it's expensive. The family is barely making it.

      Now what would you tell your wife? Would you spend the money just to make her feel good and also set the example that she can hold you to ransom?
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft 4655434b
      Who’s the wife in your example? I’m for one am not interested in being fucked by orange cheeto...
      Jan 26
    • Cisco hkkbfedvh
      You fucked yourself by getting in $10M of debt, the orange Cheeto just started fucking you a few years back...
      Jan 26
  • PwC / Consultant
    Guddha

    PwC Consultant

    PRE
    Microsoft, PwC, Deloitte, Google
    Guddhamore
    Wow, you people are surreal. Thank god I live in Canada...Is there a gofundme page for a northern wall too? I’d like to donate.
    Jan 26 6
    • PwC / Consultant
      Guddha

      PwC Consultant

      PRE
      Microsoft
      Guddhamore
      ..... I’m speechless. But glad to know you’re willing to pay for our wall.
      Jan 26
    • Netflix NULLL
      ^ It wouldn’t benefit either side. Considering the opportunity cost (money could be spent on more ROI positive initiatives) and the direct cost from increased transit times.
      Jan 27
    • PwC / Consultant
      Guddha

      PwC Consultant

      PRE
      Microsoft
      Guddhamore
      Does sarcasm not translate here on this app?
      Jan 27
    • Cisco hkkbfedvh
      Canadians are the worst
      Jan 27
    • PwC / Consultant
      Nomad999

      PwC Consultant

      PRE
      Microsoft
      Nomad999more
      Yes we are :)
      Jan 27
  • Comcast / Eng Eyla63
    Comparing a border wall to having a fence around the perimeter of your home property is BS. How many asylum seekers try to break in to your home?

    I understand that many people want the end result to be reasonable immigration enforcement. But set your politics aside.... lol. A lot of this is thinly veiled tribalism and xenophobia.

    "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

    I know what United States I want.
    Jan 26 10
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Only healthcare if we finally get universal healthcare.
      Jan 26
    • Zenreach PrezDTrump
      U clearly have not lived in LA or other liberal cities
      Jan 26
    • Conduent Milly
      Pay attention to the costs reported in Canada for refugees there. They are expensive.
      Jan 26
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      I spent about 15 years as an adult in the US living paycheck to paycheck. Why should I care what you guys think is expensive social spending? Why should the millions of people living like that care? Bulldoze the prisons and build some hospitals.
      Jan 27
    • Chase / Eng Mom22Many
      There's a homeless person down the street that want you to invite them into your house. They are seeking asylum. How immoral of you to not open your home and fence to them! And remember that anyone who breaks into your property was just likely seeking asylum. You shouldn't call the cops.
      Feb 16
  • New / Eng leet4job
    I am in for bolder border security, but not a symbolic stupid, wasteful and racist Wall.
    Jan 26 4
    • New / Eng i i i
      What makes the Wall racist? Does it do face control and allows certain races in? What races are good to go through?
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      How can a wall be racist? It’s just a wall.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft VfPN80
      I'm against building a wall because it's a waste of money and won't be effective, but calling it "racist" makes your side sound unhinged and desperate.
      Jan 26
    • Conduent Milly
      It's not building a wall to keep people out - it's building a wall to make people use regular border entry points. That is not racist.
      Jan 26
  • Google / Eng Bluths
    When a Trump supporter tries to sound logical but forgets that most illegal immigrants are visa overstays ...
    Jan 26 2
    • Okta nfc
      Try again. It's about a 60/40 split between illegal crossings and overstays.

      Bing it for more details.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      I said “Border Security and Immigration Reform” stop being so triggered over nothing.
      Jan 26
  • Nvidia mkg
    We need a wall for the same reason why you lock your door.
    Jan 26 6
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      By that logic since “crime is just going to happen” should we do anything for cyber security as a company? Bad people will just do whatever, so why should we try to secure it?
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft bsjsiibh
      Never said that. I'm merely pointing out that a lock is not the right measure against most burglary, just like a wall is not the right measure against organized drug smuggling or people fully determined to cross (with the aid of established networks).

      A lock deterrs some small amount of potential break-ins where the person could've just walk in and is not really that serious about robbing, they are just going for low hanging fruits. The same for a wall, it will prevent some tiny amount of people that could've just walked in. But guess what? We already have walls and patrol for those places where people could've just walked into the US. I don't know how you picture our border, but it's not an open park.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      Defense in depth is an important concept here.

      DID will tell you you need it all. Guards, walls, cameras, drones, snipers...etc
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft iuushk
      If we implement it all we could be spending more that the figures that are being estimated as burden from illegal immigration and drugs. The annual budget for boarder protection and immigration sits at around $20B per year, and we have only high security on less than 20% of the boarder, and no fancy stuff. Bringing that up to 100% would make the budget spike to $100B or more. Even if it stops illegal immigration completely, it won't stop drug usage, only change the source of drugs, so ... that's a lot of money for a max of 50% the results, and we all will get to pay for such a poor measure
      Jan 26
    • Nvidia mkg
      Break-ins happen. But how often does it happen if you secure it properly. Point being, we have a problem at hand, ie illegal immigrants coming in, doing or forced to do some illegal stuff. What’s the problem with physically securing the boundaries?

      If we are a country that allows free movement of people, I have no problem without it. But, that is not the case. We have been selective in taking talents in and illegal immigration is simply a problem for us and people who immigrate who have to live in fear. Building a wall is simple step towards solving it.

      But, there is lot of noise saying money being wasted and all that shit. But, I guess only policy makers know how to prioritize building a wall among other important issues at hand.
      Jan 26
  • Amazon / Eng
    Few questions to op.

    Sounds like you are a conservative and have always been for border security. What influenced you to want additional wall? Was having a wall a big deal for you prior to trump? Or are you backing trump's agenda?

    In Trump's rhetoric, he mentioned the wall will keep out criminals including drug dealers and rapists. Do we have data on this? If you were president and wanted to improve border security, would wall be your first solution? Or are you just supporting trump's agenda.

    In our current economy, illegal immigrants are vital to sustain certain markets. Assuming the wall worked (still waiting on that data), how would you resolve this? Is the wall the more pressing issue to you than resolving the USs strong dependency on illegal immigrants?

    Lots of trump's rhetoric makes the wall sound more like symbolism than actual fact. "People coming from the border are rapists and bad people". If you were to use empathy and imagine canada did that to the US, would you feel differently? (After all the US has one of the highest rape rates and crime rates in the world). What if Canada blocked US access and built a wall using the same rhetoric. So how do you address the symbolic nature of the wall and the offense that Mexicans feel when hearing about the wall?
    Jan 26 4
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      I like your reasoning. I’ve been about a wall for about 20 years. I elected Trump TO build the wall. I won’t vote for him again if he doesn’t stick to his guns and build the wall.

      Also, if I were president, I would shut government funding off to any city that was a “Sanctuary City” then round up and deport every single vis overstay and undocumented person in the US. No amnesty, nothing. Bye.

      Then I would overhaul and redesign all the H1B and green card and other crap.

      Good people come in.
      Keep bad people out.
      Jan 26
    • Amazon / Eng
      If only your opinion was backed by fact. I can link the research shown here, but posted from wikipedia:

      Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy,contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[3][4][5][6][7] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[8][9][10][11] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[12][13] Sanctuary cities – which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally – have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[14][15] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[16][17][14]
      Jan 26
    • Netflix NULLL
      You can still let immigrants in with a wall...an immigrant doesn’t have to have entered illegally in order to benefit the economy. Unless they are being exploited thereby exploiting the master due to having less avenues of recourse available to them.
      Jan 27
    • Amazon / Eng
      This is incorrect. A legal immigrant gets paid minimum wage. An illegal gets paid far less. I'm not saying this is good. I'm saying the US economy depends on it to thrive. How would you fix this problem and why is the wall a higher priority than this? Are you okay with a higher GDP (7 dollar bananas for example)
      Jan 28
  • Microsoft 4655434b
    Spend $ on security where it is effective, the wall is simply not an effective solution... it has become a symbol of hate because this is where it was rooted, it was offered as an option to deter ‘bad ombres’, well, it turns out that ppl that it would be used against, are not all bad. There is a way to deal w immigration & border security that is both effective & appropriate, solving complex problems w one word solutions that rile up the dumbest & the most hateful, is not usually the correct solution...
    Jan 26 2
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      The wall is a symbol of hate? That’s interesting. Tell me more.
      Jan 26
    • Zenreach PrezDTrump
      It's a symbol of lefts delusion and childishness.
      Jan 26
  • Microsoft rfrw82
    Additional security, sure along with more imm judges to speedup asylum cases and better training and hiring of agents etc but walls and moats are archaic and if Berlin wall has taught anything, it's that they dont work.
    Jan 26 4
    • Apple tk4fjd
      The Berlin Wall was very effective. And there’s still a border around Germany
      Jan 26
    • Conduent Milly
      The latest groups of illegal immigrants are pushing to come here now exactly because they are afraid of the wall blocking them in the future.
      Jan 26
    • Facebook / Eng
      mrballz

      Facebook Eng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      mrballzmore
      The Berlin Wall was effective because there was a tower with a guy with an assault rifle every 100 meters. Can't have that on thousands of miles.
      Jan 27
    • Apple sane
      A tower every 100 meters with machine gun is circa 1980s.. We can do this way more efficiently with drones and rovers equipped with Infrared cameras patrolling our border. No need for machine gun - just notification to nearby border patrol.
      Jan 29
  • Microsoft GeneralMan
    OP
    Nobody in your company bats an eye when we secure networks and domains and other security measures to make sure unauthorized parties don’t get in. How is this any different?

    Will a wall stop everything, no of course not, that’s why we need to fund a true defense in depth strategy which significantly makes it harder to circumvent our immigration pipeline.
    Jan 26 2
    • Microsoft 4655434b
      Are u trying to stop immigration or the drug traffickers? They are not the same thing...
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      All of it!

      0 immigration should be happening outside of an official US entry point.

      What kind of question is that?

      0 crossing outside of an official border crossing. Immigration should all be handled officially.
      Jan 26
  • Apple Share
    Come on folks, irrespective of which party you belong to, a 2000 miles wall going through mountains and lakes, really. And even if we do that, how effective it’s going to be ? Those who wanna come will come under the wall, over the wall and around the wall.
    Jan 26 1
    • Salesforce :w!
      Request (5bil one) was to build sections of the wall where appropriate plus improve other security measures along the border IIRC.
      Jan 26
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Microsoft VfPN80
      What technology upgrades have Democrats mentioned?

      I'm against a wall, but calling everyone who disagrees with you "racist" pushes people further from your side.
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      How does getting people free from drug addiction add more security to the US from an open channel where adversaries could advance.

      Would you also recommend leaving admin ports on your Reuter open?
      Jan 26
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      Anybody who enters the US illegally is now an enemy. I can only assume that somebody not going through the proper channels has something to hide with a nefarious reason.

      We have immigration process. Skip it, I can only assume the worst.
      Jan 27
  • Oath fat
    Conservatives: “Gun control cannot stop criminals from obtaining guns”

    Also conservatives: “A wall will stop illegal immigration”
    Jan 28 1
    • Salesforce :w!
      Liberals: gun control will stop criminals from obtaining guns

      Also liberals: a wall will not stop illegal immigration or trafficking through the border.
      Jan 28
  • Oath fat
    All of these polls are just framed to confirm OP’s own bias
    Jan 26 1
    • Microsoft GeneralMan
      OP
      Probably. But I did try to give objective answers. I really want to know why people oppose the wal.
      Jan 26