Check your politics. To have a useful discussion here you need to check your politics at the door.
For transparency I am for a wall and secure border, I think 50-100B spent on border security is much better spent than foreign aid. We have been neglecting our border and our immigration system and we need to invest in it.
Make it easier for people who should be here to come and stay.
Make it harder for people who should not be here or circumvented the correct way to come here.
- Microsoft moneytreeYour poll is not complete. Where is the " I support border security but a wall is not the right solution" option?
- Amazing that you accuse him of not listening when you refuse to even open your mind to the possibility that with limited resources, a border security package may not include any additional walls. That's literally the position of most people in the country.
"I do everything Pelosi tells me" is dismissive and insulting.
- Border security MIGHT NOT include a wall, but that’s implied in the first option.
If Trumpsters left to form our own country, we would take everything with us leaving the triggered snowflakes alone with their feelings. Then North Korea would take you over and make you slaves.
- I don’t because the “crimes” by undocumented immigrants largely stem from criminalization of migration. Other regular crimes among undocumented immigrants have been shown to be lower than for native born Americans (though this could partially be due to undocumented immigrants not reporting crimes against them.)
DHS also shows basically no “terrorism” threat from border crossings.
I favor amnesty because it would end the criminalization of part of the US workforce. Amnesty and decriminalization of drugs destroy the basis for crime related to the border and towns on both sides would become safer.
If an immigrant does commit a crime, it would be a lot easier to discover if migration wasn’t criminalized and we had processing documents etc on who they are and where they reside.
- Microsoft leet_awayThe argument that illegals commit fewer crimes than natives is a myth. It’s probably true for legal immigrants and we have the records to verify that claim. But who has a registry of all the illegals? These are just estimations from various think tanks which have an agenda and the fact that their reports are contradictory is telling.
- There are no reliable statistics on crime committed by illegal aliens. Immigration status is not commonly or consistently reported by police. In some jurisdictions the non-reporting of illegal immigrant status by police is deliberate. Where I live the police don't. The reason is that illegal immigrants have car accidents, for example, and rather than hang around exchanging car insurance and waiting for the police they run away. This actually happened to me - my car got totalled and the other car, an older pickup truck was damaged and the driver ran away - on foot. Abandoned the pickup truck, refused to report accident to his insurance and never answered calls and visits from the police. They run because they are afraid of being deported - and tough luck to me. If we don't put every possible barrier to entry in place then I'm safer. I want a wall and a modern visa tracking system.
- Texas is the only state that collects criminal data about undocumented immigrants as far as I’m aware.
“There were 785 total homicide convictions in Texas in 2015. Of those, native-born Americans were convicted of 709 homicides, illegal immigrants were convicted of 46 homicides, and legal immigrants were convicted of 30 homicides. The homicide conviction rate for native-born Americans was 3.1 per 100,000, 2.6 per 100,000 for illegal immigrants, and 1 per 100,000 for legal immigrants (Figure 2). In 2015, homicide conviction rates for illegal and legal immigrants were 16 percent and 67 percent below those of natives, respectively.”
But like with most crimes, criminologists tend to use victimization rather than convictions. Convictions can be biased or skewed. However this rate is also lower for undocumented immigrants.
Most of the crime surrounding the border have to do with criminalizing migration for poor people looking for work. Militarizing the border is not the solution, the militarized border is the problem.
- 0 explanations for why we DON’T need a wall. Lots of whiny opinions though.
Somebody architect a logical explanation for why we don’t need a wall.
“They aren’t effective”
Yes they are.
“It won’t stop bad people”
Yes it will.
- Ganged, don’t try to think I don’t have a perfectly good logic for a wall. And I’ve been very vocal about it.
Walls work in perfect harmony as a Layer 1 to a defense in depth strategy. Layer 2 might be sensors around or on the wall, layer 3 is armed agents that respond to those alarms / patrol, layer 4 might be drones and IR cameras.
Not one of those options is fool-proof on their own. But we should take a defense in depth approach that encompasses multiple defenses that work together.
Would you disagree?
- OP, read what the Cato institute (hardly a leftist outlet) wrote about a border wall. https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work
I am all for better border security. I want experts to decide what is the best way to spend our money, though.
In some areas (urban) a wall is probably necessary, even if it just slows people down, because once they are on the other side they can just disappear in minutes. Out in the desert high-tech detection - like the thing Palmer Luckey is working on - could be better.
You still need manpower, because at the end someone needs to show up and apprehend illegal crossers.
- 5billion for a walk versus 150billion per year burden caused by illegals on the system, plus the cost of deaths due to drug overdoses and human trafficking
- You are assuming the wall will keep illegals and criminals out? I oppose the wall because I think it won't be effective and will end up becoming a white elephant.
Criminals will find other ways to smuggle drugs (like recruiting american citizens). Illegals will find other ways, like coming through the Canada border or any of the coastal borders. Or digging tunnels.
- 5B is not even enough to build all the wall, that's just the number they are trying to negotiate to get started. The whole thing, just in terms of material, land handling and initial building work, is estimated at +20B. After that the country will have extra burden on maintaining it and keeping it secure, not to mention the roads, and other posts needed for the people that would be working there.
- Also, on the drug abuse, do note that the main reason why most drugs in the US come from the southern countries is mainly economical. It's cheaper there. If you cut that supply passing through the south border you only make it so the other markets (Asia, middle East, for example) fill the void. And even if you block those, the domestic sources, which are the third main source of hard drugs in the US (behind south America and Asia) will take over. You cannot stop them selling if there is people demanding it, it's economics, especially when the stuff is already illegal. You can only prevent more deaths due to drugs if you focus on helping Americans to stop buying that shit.
- It’s like a gate for your driveway. If you can afford it(which the US can) why not? If the neighborhood is bad around you, the cost gets more justified. If people keep coming onto your property, you will likely get one even if the people have good intentions. Why not have one? It costs <1% of the federal budget.....why are we shutting down the government over such a small amount of money? Our federal deficit grows by more than that every day yet nobody cares. US government is the worst at money management. Very very scary.
- What the hell are we so worried about that we need a wall? We afraid of people trying to make a better life for themselves? Please don’t say drug deterrent because anyone who is smart knows 95% of drugs coming up through Mexico are not on peoples backs. So if it’s not drugs, it’s not stopping illegal guns from coming in and families that want to make a better life are those coming across for the most part, what is so important about this wall? False security people.
- I find it hard to believe that constructing a wall wouldn’t pay for itself. Seems like dems are trying to stop trump from a very visible win.
I say that as a Democrat voter.
- My logic makes perfect sense. Yes I agree don’t spend money, but to say that to a politician is silly, they spend spend spend. So if they are going to spend, it would prefer them not to make a huge deal over such a small amount of money. In comparison to other things the government wastes money on, this wall expenditure is literally <1%, nothing.
Let’s say you make $200k a year, own a $1M home and your wife says she wants a gate for the driveway. She doesn’t feel secure. You already have a security system so you don’t think it’s necessary. Your wife says she’s going to divorce you if she doesn’t get her gate....are you really going to divorce your wife over $2k? Really? You may have bigger problems because your wife and you can’t compromise, but to create such problems because of $2k (assuming the gate costs $2k or 1% of your total income/budget), is stupid....
- If you are doing the analogy, do it right.
In this story, the husband is $10 Million in debt. There are kids in the house who can't be taken to the doctor because it's expensive. The family is barely making it.
Now what would you tell your wife? Would you spend the money just to make her feel good and also set the example that she can hold you to ransom?Jan 265
- Wow, you people are surreal. Thank god I live in Canada...Is there a gofundme page for a northern wall too? I’d like to donate.
- Comcast / EngEyla63Comparing a border wall to having a fence around the perimeter of your home property is BS. How many asylum seekers try to break in to your home?
I understand that many people want the end result to be reasonable immigration enforcement. But set your politics aside.... lol. A lot of this is thinly veiled tribalism and xenophobia.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
I know what United States I want.
- New / Engleet4jobI am in for bolder border security, but not a symbolic stupid, wasteful and racist Wall.
- Google / EngBluthsWhen a Trump supporter tries to sound logical but forgets that most illegal immigrants are visa overstays ...
- Never said that. I'm merely pointing out that a lock is not the right measure against most burglary, just like a wall is not the right measure against organized drug smuggling or people fully determined to cross (with the aid of established networks).
A lock deterrs some small amount of potential break-ins where the person could've just walk in and is not really that serious about robbing, they are just going for low hanging fruits. The same for a wall, it will prevent some tiny amount of people that could've just walked in. But guess what? We already have walls and patrol for those places where people could've just walked into the US. I don't know how you picture our border, but it's not an open park.
- Microsoft iuushkIf we implement it all we could be spending more that the figures that are being estimated as burden from illegal immigration and drugs. The annual budget for boarder protection and immigration sits at around $20B per year, and we have only high security on less than 20% of the boarder, and no fancy stuff. Bringing that up to 100% would make the budget spike to $100B or more. Even if it stops illegal immigration completely, it won't stop drug usage, only change the source of drugs, so ... that's a lot of money for a max of 50% the results, and we all will get to pay for such a poor measure
- Break-ins happen. But how often does it happen if you secure it properly. Point being, we have a problem at hand, ie illegal immigrants coming in, doing or forced to do some illegal stuff. What’s the problem with physically securing the boundaries?
If we are a country that allows free movement of people, I have no problem without it. But, that is not the case. We have been selective in taking talents in and illegal immigration is simply a problem for us and people who immigrate who have to live in fear. Building a wall is simple step towards solving it.
But, there is lot of noise saying money being wasted and all that shit. But, I guess only policy makers know how to prioritize building a wall among other important issues at hand.
- Few questions to op.
Sounds like you are a conservative and have always been for border security. What influenced you to want additional wall? Was having a wall a big deal for you prior to trump? Or are you backing trump's agenda?
In Trump's rhetoric, he mentioned the wall will keep out criminals including drug dealers and rapists. Do we have data on this? If you were president and wanted to improve border security, would wall be your first solution? Or are you just supporting trump's agenda.
In our current economy, illegal immigrants are vital to sustain certain markets. Assuming the wall worked (still waiting on that data), how would you resolve this? Is the wall the more pressing issue to you than resolving the USs strong dependency on illegal immigrants?
Lots of trump's rhetoric makes the wall sound more like symbolism than actual fact. "People coming from the border are rapists and bad people". If you were to use empathy and imagine canada did that to the US, would you feel differently? (After all the US has one of the highest rape rates and crime rates in the world). What if Canada blocked US access and built a wall using the same rhetoric. So how do you address the symbolic nature of the wall and the offense that Mexicans feel when hearing about the wall?
- I like your reasoning. I’ve been about a wall for about 20 years. I elected Trump TO build the wall. I won’t vote for him again if he doesn’t stick to his guns and build the wall.
Also, if I were president, I would shut government funding off to any city that was a “Sanctuary City” then round up and deport every single vis overstay and undocumented person in the US. No amnesty, nothing. Bye.
Then I would overhaul and redesign all the H1B and green card and other crap.
Good people come in.
Keep bad people out.
- If only your opinion was backed by fact. I can link the research shown here, but posted from wikipedia:
Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy,contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services. Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product. There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives. Sanctuary cities – which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally – have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate. Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.
- This is incorrect. A legal immigrant gets paid minimum wage. An illegal gets paid far less. I'm not saying this is good. I'm saying the US economy depends on it to thrive. How would you fix this problem and why is the wall a higher priority than this? Are you okay with a higher GDP (7 dollar bananas for example)
- Spend $ on security where it is effective, the wall is simply not an effective solution... it has become a symbol of hate because this is where it was rooted, it was offered as an option to deter ‘bad ombres’, well, it turns out that ppl that it would be used against, are not all bad. There is a way to deal w immigration & border security that is both effective & appropriate, solving complex problems w one word solutions that rile up the dumbest & the most hateful, is not usually the correct solution...
- Microsoft rfrw82Additional security, sure along with more imm judges to speedup asylum cases and better training and hiring of agents etc but walls and moats are archaic and if Berlin wall has taught anything, it's that they dont work.
- Apple ShareCome on folks, irrespective of which party you belong to, a 2000 miles wall going through mountains and lakes, really. And even if we do that, how effective it’s going to be ? Those who wanna come will come under the wall, over the wall and around the wall.
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- Nobody in your company bats an eye when we secure networks and domains and other security measures to make sure unauthorized parties don’t get in. How is this any different?
Will a wall stop everything, no of course not, that’s why we need to fund a true defense in depth strategy which significantly makes it harder to circumvent our immigration pipeline.
- Conservatives: “Gun control cannot stop criminals from obtaining guns”
Also conservatives: “A wall will stop illegal immigration”
- New elon_You’re missing an option — We DO need better border security, but a wall is just stupid and expensive, it would take way too long to build and it won’t help much at the end.
- Apple TimCookedIsrael has a wall, they are happy with it and consider it was smart investment. Why it so hard to learn from others success. On a second not military budget is like 900billions - I’d rather have public outrage over how money is spent there.
- Amazon okvfbgUhh Israel is the home of consistent religious war. Comparing the US and Mexico to Israel is not a good one. Germany also had a wall if we’re going to use such comparisons, how did that work? How about the Roman Empire and their walls? Does anyone learn from history? Apparently not
- Hungary built the wall to limit influx of "refugees". It worked well for them.
Bare ass money begging Ukraine "builds" the wall on Russian border (double lol) and Western nations give money to them for that. I guess walls are a good idea.
The US (Obama IIRC) gave money to Mexico to build the wall on southern border of Mexico to keep refugees from the Latin/Southern America out. I guess walls work there.
- Microsoft sammkauHungary's situation has some key differences, the major being that people were just going for the easiest option, after they fenced, asylum seekers just spread to the rest of Europe, so really no immigration was prevented as the goal of these people was not to specifically get into Hungary, but rather get into Europe, and so far they keep succeeding in that goal.
I do see the immigrants trying their luck at Hungary again, if the rest of Europe denies them, since it's one of the closest countries. They also see the high burden on their economy by keeping just a single side of their country fenced, and they are even trying to have EU pay for part of it :)
Now, spending a shitton of money on boarder protection will reduce immigration, but the cost is barely justified, specially for our country, we have no one else to bounce these people to, our border is immense, a lot of people come here to work for pennies, and there are parties here interested in keeping the flow of drugs.
You cannot just make comparisons willy nilly.
Also, southern Mexican boarder doesn't work, otherwise we would've seen a decrease in South American immigrants or drugs (they don't want to go to Mexico, just reach US), but we haven't.
- I'd guess that southern Mexican border does not work because Mexican border patrol now corrupt or/and the border wall was half-assed while funding was stolen.
Having working border defense (which may include walls in some locations) makes sense since we cannot rely on Mexico at all.
- T-Mobile WozniAKWhy doesn’t anyone talk about lost jobs for border patrol once wall is built ? I would rather have jobs for ppl than pay bricks.
- Build it and then amnesty those who are already inside. Except for ones with criminal records. Then use the free’d up political cycles on other pressing issues.
- I'm in favor of more border security, but as long as airplanes exist, and as long as we allow people to overstay visas, a wall won't do anything.
- Microsoft FridocranzGood border security yes. Pass a set of merit based immigration laws, improve tech and security on the border, hire enough people to enforce the laws, provide a solution that’s reasonable for those already here illegally. Seems pretty straight forward. The problem is the politicians. If we do build a wall, build it around Washington DC.
- Spending on boarder security might be a decent idea depending on what you plan to do, but a wall is a waste of our money. Is not as if the border is devoid of walls or other barriers. Certain high traffic areas have a wall, and both, people and drugs, are still able to pass through those areas every day. Also, most people that pass through illegally by land have someone helping them on the other side, these people take advantage of existing roads and communities near the boarder, if you are telling me that you now plan to build more roads (temporary but for years) and have a lot of movement at the boarder with all the new workers, I would say you are making it easier for them to continue their smuggling operations.
- ViaSat / Designmark1650Screw the wall! My federal taxes just went up 17%. Quit spending my money.
- You are already $10M in debt, so $2k is nothing. You obviously spend money like an idiot....I can’t fix that problem. Yet, If you don’t spend $2k on a gate but then go spend $2k on a drone? I’d say a gate will work better. Either way you are fucked.
- Microsoft SneaksneakI honestly don't care about the wall anymore and wish we could just stop talking about it. At the end of the day the President has trouble clearly, lucidly, demonstrating how or why this would work and only serves to polarize the conversation which unfortunately causes people to knee jerk and reflexively be against it if they don't like him (myself included, I don't trust that there was any thought or logic from the President EVEN if there are/were scientific, compelling reasons for the wall). At this point its a religious argument.
Personally the only way to solve most of these problems is through the pocketbook. Crack down on businesses that are employing undocumented workers, collect fines, and then suffer the economic ramifications, higher prices for goods and services. If you want to take those fines and self finance the wall so be it, I honestly don't care. But let's stop pretending that anyone in business really cares about cracking down on immigration when many low wages jobs depend on the vast supply of cheap labor.
- Indeed cyhy46I don't really care either way. The wall is clearly and obviously a political football, and isn't tied to reality. The only people who know what is effective for policing the border are people whose job it is to police the border (CBP) and even if they are for a wall (are they? Does anyone know?) I doubt what they want is what the government is selling.
I personally suspect that the wall is effective in preventing illegal border crossings when the wall is near major population centers, and that it's a useless waste of time and money when it's in the middle of open desert. I suspect this is also a big factor in the non-partisan element of people disagreeing on walls. The republicans point to the wall at San Diego (a gigantic population center) as being effective and falsely use that as an argument for walling across rural West Texas. The democrats point out the obvious absurdity of walling across rural West Texas and use that as an argument for not building walls at the border near cities.
Overall I don't have strong opinions either way on the border. I myself am a foreigner living in the US, and feel that it's not really my right to have political opinions in someone else's country. The US immigration system as a whole is broken in tons of ways. Those ways need to get fixed, but probably won't get fixed. I don't think building a wallis the right place to focus if the goal is to reduce illegal boarder crossings. There are plenty of other things that I think should be higher priority.
If we implemented those other things, and still had problems with illegal boarder crossings, I'd be open to the idea that a wall would work but, again, the only people who know the answer to that question are CBP, not Washington DC
- Amazon CoatlI think it really depends on what is the desired outcome.
If you want to make more difficult to enter by land in remote areas and increasing the death rate of illegal immigrants, then yes. A wall is needed.
If you want to decrease the number of illegal immigrants present within the US by more than 25%, then no. You don't need a wall.