The chinese whataboutism "hurr durr muh America", shows no real arguments can be produced

New Ab44
Oct 12 75 Comments

Why is it that most times someone point out bad things or facts about China here, it's met by "buuuuuut in AMERICAAA" ? First this shows lack of knowledge about the world, since most people even don't live in those countries and you can be against things BOTH countries does.

Another thing is the lack of understanding about free speech, and it it's BECAUSE that a lot of problems can be talked about. In China they are not allowed or whispered about, leading to a false sense of order.

It's quite clear the western legacy of the greek and roman philosophers and thinkers is much better than the east asian authoritarian ones from the same period, especially when trying to build arguments like the example above.

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TOP 75 Comments
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Intuit www2
      An example of whataboutism☝️
      Oct 12
    • Cisco nonpareil2
      PRISM was the opposite of censorship. Name one thing censored as part of PRISM.

      And another example of how weak the pro-Chinese argument is.
      Oct 12
    • New Ab44
      OP
      No one fucking mentioned prism so thx for proving my point
      Oct 12
    • Cisco nonpareil2
      cfang idiot above did.
      Oct 12
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Yes was reply to him sorry 😁
      Oct 12
  • Bloomberg char v[11]
    But what about TC and YOE?
    Oct 12 6
    • Bloomberg char v[11]
      Damn op, you're up and running.. had your morning coffee and everything? USA is easy to pick on because there's a lot of laundry washing done here in the open. No such thing with other countries.
      Oct 12
    • New Ab44
      OP
      I had my morning red bull yes

      And exactly, the whole save face culture in Asia doesn't help either
      Oct 12
    • Wayfair / Eng tAcq10
      OP you need to LC first and add another zero to that TC, then we can continue this
      Oct 12
    • New Ab44
      OP
      It's top 10% earners for Berlin and I have 500 in rent for a two room apartment so I'm quite happy
      Oct 12
    • Bloomberg char v[11]
      Yeah, the new American dream. Earn a mill or 2 here then retire back in Europe..
      Oct 12
  • Wut? It’s Friday night. Get a life
    Oct 12 2
    • New Ab44
      OP
      no it's saturday morning
      Oct 12
    • Go to sleep. You need it.
      Oct 12
  • Facebook el_idolo1
    On China: Super authoritarian government. Mass censorship. Uighur organ harvesting. Abuse of HK. Concentration camps. Social credit system. Supports North Korea. I can continue to list more things, including atrocities, but yeah it's fairly obvious the country is garbage.

    Copy pasted from another thread. Nothing is this extreme in the US anymore. We're passed that point. If you guys love the Chinese government so much, why are you here? In the US you can shit on the government as freely as you want, try criticizing the Chinese government while in China.
    Oct 12 13
    • New Ab44
      OP
      I'm living in Germany...
      Oct 13
    • Uber bgfd
      My bad, I thought this app was primarily used in the Bay Area. I don’t know enough about Germany to make references to that country so I will have to stick with the countries I am familiar with.
      Oct 13
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Yes that's mostly what I wanted from this thread. Not everything is is vs China. I hate a lot what us does too like surveillance, shootings, no healthcare for poor but there is a lot of peaceful countries China could learn from
      Oct 13
    • Facebook el_idolo1
      @bgfd Your authoritarian ways shine through the way you speak about human rights. "anything China-related triggers freedom, human rights, democracy, blah blah." Blah blah? You serious? That's what you think of human rights? No, it's not tossed aside as "blah blah" it's something basic and should be accessible to most across the planet. But no, all you did was attack me and not my points. Everything I said above, what China has done, is true and documented. How you interpret it is different from me, but your interpretation goes against freedoms I think are intrinsic.

      You have no idea where I am from, how I was raised, and make these assumptions. I'm actually Eastern European you dingus, I lived in totalitarian hell for a minute and I understand just how shit it is. I've built my perspective on freedoms by living through crap that goes against it.
      Oct 13
    • Uber bgfd
      I actually lived in China and I know those points you raised are not totally fact. I think you are setting up a tautology. I attacked your points and I used the exact same method that pro-democracy people use against us non-pro-democracy people all the time. Know how it feels now?

      As for democracy, I don’t support it. I think it is one of many different ideologies which may be good or bad depending on how it’s done. What I seriously dislike is the messianic spread of democracy. To use an analogy that you might sympathize with, today’s democracy movement is like the communist movement of the early twentieth century, unyielding and bent on spreading itself all over the world regardless of whether people want it.
      Oct 13
  • Google EMRF88
    I don't like people bad mouth China. As a minority in American, I have deep security worry. Under the name of Freedom, bad month can spread and late become the excuse of horrible behavior. In general, I don't like bad mouht any country. It is easy to point a finger than to make a change. Every country has its problems. Pointing a finger does not really help that country more than hurting the people of that country.
    Oct 12 3
    • Google WFHeng
      Hi Curry, are you at Google as well? After you figure out what CCP did we can start to talk.
      Oct 12
    • New Ab44
      OP
      At least you don't need to worry that you disappear after cririzing Trump or visiting the wrong website
      Oct 12
    • Google EMRF88
      The truth is: in American, I have to worry that I will be harassed if I choose to support Trump. If I visit wrong website, I will be sentenced. In China, I don't have this worry because the illegal websites are already filtered. I can say that I am against the chairman's idea because I am not a CCP. So I don't have to agree with their philosophy. Last but not least, I hope that we don't fall into these details. Let's look at the big picture and help both countries and their people to have a better life than now.
      Oct 13
  • Google nv6465
    I differentiate between the Chinese government and its people. China has over a billion people and is diverse. Plenty of Chinese would agree with you however the Chinese voices you hear are filtered.
    Oct 12 0
  • JUUL 5jh2sc
    Don’t forget what you read/hear about China is only what and how the American presses choose to report on. If the press is pro-democracy of course it’s gonna make China or communism sound bad.

    What Americans fail to understand is that chinese people hold different values than American values. What’s the norm for you doesn’t mean it’s the norm for them.

    Bottom line, the CCP lifted a billion people out of extreme poverty within a few decades, and now they’re becoming worlds biggest economy. People’s lives improved drastically. That’s why CCP continues to exist and rule China
    Oct 12 5
    • Flagged by the community.

    • LinkedIn / Eng igotb&
      Sounds like the Chinese lifted themselves out of poverty when their government got out of the way, then the government takes all the credit.
      Oct 12
    • Amazon 🐅 woods
      Did the cultural revolution lift them out of poverty?
      Oct 12
    • Uber bgfd
      The cultural revolution did not lift people out of poverty but it also ended in 1976 which was over four decades ago. Bringing it up is the kind of the thing that invites what aboutism
      Oct 12
    • LinkedIn / Eng igotb&
      You mean like how if any Western person says the slightest thing about China TODAY they are treated to a treatise on western colonialism?

      Just like Joe Tsai on the NBA tweet shitshow.
      Oct 12
  • Google 1810
    It's not an argument but to point out the hypocrisy and false sense of moral high ground from the west.
    Oct 12 9
    • Amazon creedmoor
      The people who don't agree democracy is the moral high ground are wrong. Brainwashed mostly.

      I'm not saying we should go force them to change their minds,I think the mostly know that they are full of shit anyway but some sort of pride prevents them from admitting if. Even if they really are so brainwashed that actually want to be slaves I don't care--but they are wrong.

      Lots of Chinese have that problem where that can't admit anything is wrong with their country, as if it would be horrible if people knew China needed to improve.
      Oct 14
    • Uber bgfd
      creedmoor: excuse me?! What kind of brainwashing are you displaying here? The idea that any ideology is the moral high ground and that disagreeing is wrong and brainwashed is the height of arrogance and close-mindedness. That itself is the outcome of democratic brainwashing. The fact is that scholars over the last two thousand years have debated the pros and cons of democracy, especially during the Enlightenment and many alternative systems were studied which different thinkers thought were superior. Even Plato himself had doubts about democracies because he feared it would degenerate into mob rule. Real life examples of democracies and countries that tried it are mixed. Only brainwashing can lead people to see only the successes and ignore the failures.

      Frankly your behavior with the absolute superiority of democracy reminds me of people who steadfastly hold that communism is the best.
      Oct 14
    • Uber bgfd
      The last generalization against Chinese lacks support and is racist. In fact often times foreigners try to pin false claims on China due to the misinformation from their media and when Chinese reject that they tautologically blame the Chinese again. Look creedmoor we are not two year olds: we can see through the negative intent behind your infantilizing, discriminatory, and vile accusations.
      Oct 14
    • Amazon creedmoor
      Democracy is absolutely superior.

      I think it's pretty difficult to impose on a country that doesn't have it, not countries that have it are by definition better than countries that don't.

      Case in point:

      China's lack of democracy makes it a corrupt shithole. It could and should be a great nation based on the excellence of its people, but they are held back by a terrible government.

      And stop with the idea that the mainland is a race. Chinese people do democracy pretty well when not oppressed by the CCP. See Taiwan.
      Oct 14
    • Uber bgfd
      As I just posted on another thread, I think the idea that democracy is absolutely superior is incorrect. I think it is by definition an extreme position. As you point out, not all countries that have it are by definition better than countries that don’t. Democracy might help reduce corruption in China, but then who knows. President Xi’s heavy use of AI and surveillance might be even more effective. China’s corruption issue has been tackled by many different methods over the millennia and none have worked well in the long run. Taiwan has a lot of great things to admire from a mainland standpoint, but it’s not all rosy. For example former President Chen Shui-bian was jailed for corruption (initially for life) after leaving office (doesn’t that sound similar to things happening in Mainland China since 2012?). I have also paid attention to the various student movements in Taiwan since the Sunflower movement and Taiwanese Independence movement and I do not think very highly of some of their goals and methods. To me, they are using political freedoms in a demagogic way to get people to channel their daily frustrations into the political agendas of a few politicians who use them to advance their own careers. I especially look down on how they have used democratic freedoms to get people to drop their own national identity (de-Sinicization). That’s a red line for any system or ideology in my opinion.
      Oct 19
  • Schlumberger FBaV75
    Let me show some good arguments that CCP is a fairly good government if you evaluate it over the entire world.

    If you just look at the result, there is no hot war in China (look at middle east shit), no gun shooting events (US) and public hospitals are super good and cheap.

    Free speech -> you literally can discuss anything with your friends and I grew up discussing politics with my friends. Also, US does not have 100% free speech, e.g. you can't say anyone is fat, even though it's simply a fact. Everyone should embrace and accept himself, even if he is fat. And if you say anything wrong, you simply pay the price (get fired), same thing in China.

    Not-democracy -> authoritarian is a more accurate description. CCP after Mao and before Xi (exclusive both sides) is fairly democratic inside the elite circle, and none of them get that position simply because of their powerful parents - they also need to show talent and leadership.

    Mass censorship. -> all foreign companies (MSFT, GOOGLE, etc...) in Beijing have free access. Censorship is mostly for the CCP's stability, but it also does good things such as banning porn sites. You can't really find porn inside the firewall and porn is causing problems in western country

    Uighur concentration camp -> the concentration camp is to counter-terrorism and not every Uighur gets in and potential terrorists get in (not necessarily Uighur). though I have to say the false positive rate might be high, true positive rate is definitely not zero! If you just condemn camp, look at US Japanese American (yeah some were born here) camp in WWII. I'm pretty sure similar things would happen to Chinese American with high probability if two countries break out war.
    Also, I have Uighur friends growing up with me and they are perfectly fine... You know what, Uighur people get more points in GAOKAO (China version of SAT/ACT) simply because they are Uighur.
    Check out 2014 Kunming attack (Muslim ppl slaying Han's), so you understand why CCP is regulating Muslims.

    Religious freedom -> religion is just no a thing in Chinese culture. So if the religion doesn't hurt others' life (neither in a fraudulent way), CCP would just let it go. If it affects the peace of society and action will be taken. Funny fact in China recent years, Muslim have to raise the national flag and singe national anthem before worship. It's simply nation goes before religion. Also, don't be fooled by US government. Religion is US is not competely free, or at least not free to bring into effects. Just look at mormon's polygamy. They can believe in polygamy, but they can't exericise, even if both parties agree. Also, the federal government asked Utah to ban polygamy as the requirement to join the union, and you know what, Utah agreed and sacrificed their religious freedom.... Tyranny of the majority! I'm not favoring polygamy, but I'm just sad when people's sincere belief are destroied in US...

    Social credit system. -> Social credit system just satarts in China and it's just not a thing. It's only for people abusing the system (e.g. poo-poo in subway). People get more discriminated based on what they did in America. e.g. your car insurance gonna increase after an accident if you use the insurance but that's not the case in China. Credit Score in US has much longer history than China. Also, a young male single driver doesn't get crazily high car insurance in China.

    Supports North Korea. -> so what? US supports Saudi, a Hereditary monarchy country in 2019, a country that just allows female to drive in 2018.
    Oct 12 5
    • It’s political correct to shit talk China. Anyone defending China are communists need to be deported.
      Oct 12
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Thank you sir for again providing my point by the letter

      This shows how the chinese troll education camps doesn't create the understanding of logical arguments and simple facts to stand for themselves, and everything must be met but "WHAT ABOUT XXXXX"

      Why even bring up US when I explicitly stated I'm not from there, work there and is also against them on a lot of points?

      And you fall for the whole "stability" thing too, which is just the way CCP brainwashes it's people.
      Oct 13
    • Schlumberger FBaV75
      Ab44, why I brought up other countries is because I want to evaluate CCP government with respects to other countries. And it makes perfect sense to compare it.

      Censorship bans porn, which is a good decision. There are many points in my argument that don't require comparison to other countries. If you read more carefully, you simply learn more and become a better person. If you just want to believe in what you believe, I'm perfectly fine with it
      Oct 13
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Compare it to some good countries then like Norway, Switzerland or Austria not the imperial world police killers in US

      They can adapt to them.

      No it's not, and it's not even about what to ban but that the government can do it. England is on that way now too btw
      Oct 13
    • LinkedIn / Eng igotb&
      Mormons practice polygamy in the United States to this day. The only gotcha is there is no legal marriage beyond the first wife.
      Oct 13
  • OpenTable Meliodas
    Most people on here can’t form cogent arguments, it isn’t unique to the Chinese.

    As for your western superiority claims, the Chinese have been under communist rule since the 1940’s. Communism is a western philosophy, not an ancient eastern one.
    Oct 12 2
    • Compass / Eng lehmanbros
      We all know that the chinese communist party is as communist as People's Republic of China is a republic.

      Pretty sure Marx's conception of communism didn't involve a crazy dictator for life like Mao, Stalin, or Kim
      Oct 12
    • OpenTable Meliodas
      From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. - Marx

      Some people just need to be autocrats.
      Oct 12
  • LinkedIn / Eng igotb&
    You can denounce American hegemony in front of the White House and Tiananmen Square, both countries are the same!
    Oct 12 2
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Ah the old Reagan joke, not bad
      Oct 12
    • Uber bgfd
      So what?
      Oct 12
  • The Home Depot AAWf82
    Don’t forget that America has contributed so much to the world.
    Oct 12 2
    • New Ab44
      OP
      No my point is nothing has to do with USA. One can be against Chinese actions regardless
      Oct 12
    • Amazon 🐅 woods
      Chinese contributed dumplings and orange chicken.
      Oct 12
  • Zillow Group sofaking
    Doesn’t matter where you’re from. Those Chinese folks just reflexively fall back onto two arguments anytime anyone says anything bad about their country and/or government: 1) Your country/government sucks too! 2) But we’re rich! Look at how much money we’ve made!
    Oct 12 0
  • Uber
    It's very easy to get polarized view from media no matter where u live. Every story has many aspects. Like in US you hear news about China totalitarianism while in China you'll hear about US hegemonism every day, both are true imho. Such is human nature to think one himself is right and good and other is wrong and bad.
    Oct 12 3
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Ok but I didn't compare the two so
      Oct 13
    • Google EMRF88
      Ab44@, Can you tolerate if some people like to compare the two?
      Oct 13
    • New Ab44
      OP
      Of course, there is a lot of ways they can e compared, for example how good the public infrastructure is in China vs us. It shouldn't spill over the other way around either
      Oct 13
  • Google EMRF88
    When I think more, most people responding with what about American already assumes that American is by far the best country in the world. The point they are trying to make is no country is perfect. Shaming on China in US will do nothing more than hurt the the Chinese people living in US.
    Oct 13 1
    • LinkedIn / Eng igotb&
      Chinese != CCP.

      Even if a lot of them unwaveringly support CCP, it’s not like they voted for them.
      Oct 13

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