There are open borders for money, but not peopleNov 29
”Money can travel the globe virtually without restriction, in search of regulations that are weaker and labour that is cheaper.
When it does, it often displaces people: sucking investment and resources from one place at the flick of a switch; shutting down factories and shifting them to the other side of the world; or introducing automation that renders some professions obsolete. But those who find their lives turned upside down by the free movement of capital are often prevented from moving country and looking for work. People should have at least the same rights – or more, since humans are more valuable than money.
It is a fact, rarely stated but generally acknowledged and accepted, that the global poor should not be allowed to travel. That’s most of the world. As such, from the refugee camp in Calais to the rickety vessels on the Mediterranean, from Trump’s wall to the Berlin wall, the border stands as an ultimate point of confrontation in the broader dystopia we have made possible.
Nation states are a relatively new concept; migration is as old as humanity. Borders seek to regulate and restrict that basic human custom for the distinct purpose of excluding some and privileging others. They discriminate between all people with the express intention of then being able to discriminate against some people. They do not simply set boundaries for countries, but are metaphors for the boundaries of how we might think about other human beings. Immigrants are not the problem. Borders are.”
- Facebook sol1Groceries and pizzas come into your house virtually uninhibited but the people who come into your house are tightly controlled. People are more valuable than pizza so take the doors and locks off your house and let everyone come in
- Supply and demand absolutely AFFECTS price. If we can't agree on that, then we're not going to get anywhere.
Yes, artificially restricting supply raises the price as in your example with artisans. That's still just supply and demand.
Automation makes labor more productive. But the supply and demand of labor determine the price of that labor. Still just supply and demand.
Compensation also still depends on value produced. You are just ignoring the fact that the employer is the one providing the automation machines. The unskilled worker driving the tractor has a marginal value add over the tractor itself.
- The cost of the tractor is fixed. It has a lifespan and runs down. Labor costs are not fixed and can be made to work overtime, can have their wages stagnate and and can be replaced nearly without additional cost (some training and HR costs... but it’s not like having to invest in new machinery all over again).
Unless someone has innovated a new technology, machines don’t create new value. Whereas human labor is not a fixed value - it replenishes itself for the cost of basic necessities but produces more than the wages it cost.
Our whole industry is basically focused around this - disruption is generally just getting rid of labor costs. People buy the tech but make money by having a leaner process where each worker is now able to do what required a bunch of dispatchers or other workers to do.
- > Machines don't create new value
A canning machine produces new cans? A vending machine.. Unless you mean creative people innovating? Sure we don't have an app that invents apps but ML is going in that direction.
You lost me with the point of your comment. What are you objecting to? That increased supply of unskilled labor drives down unskilles salaries? I think that's obviously true. Skilled/creative labor creates new value, but that's an argument for legal skilled immigration not an open borders free for all for the world's poorest and unskilled.
- I’m objecting to your conflation of wages and the value produced or the “worth” of that value. Again development and age are two major value-producing industries where people are not paid much. What kind of value would be lost if Walmart checkers or UPS drivers or agricultural workers went on strike for two weeks - not a big deal according to you because they don’t get paid much.
Yes machines create products, but again, this is a fixed amount. You can’t offer overtime to get a machine to produce more. A machine can’t go home and cook a meal and return then next day as productive as the last. They are just used to amplify labor... your argument is like saying that binoculars see things better than people.
- We already agreed supply and demand of labor affects wages. The relationship between value added and compensation is secondary to the discussion about open borders. Adding tons of skilled labor to the labor pool would drive down skilled labor wages but would likely create new opportunities for everyone as well. You are making the argument for skilled labor immigration policies which is the opposite of open borders
- I am arguing that if undocumented immigrants “drive down wages” it is because immigration restrictions make them easy to threaten and underpay them. Make immigration simply a matter of accounting and filling out some paperwork, grant basic rights and full labor and renter/homeowner rights and protections.
The “problems” of undocumented immigration all stem from immigration policy and making migrant “illegal” - not from migration in the abstract.
- The problems of mass immigration of unskilled poor people from cultures with different norms who speak little or no English are obvious and are not mere paperwork problems. There is a reason why techies all send their kids to private schools in California.
I don't get how you are so stuck in advocating a bizarre ideological idea. This is like talking to Libertarians who are convinced their amazing idea just hasn't been tried
- Salesforce cold brew@ellis where did you grow up? I grew up in Southern California and I for one can tell you I would have never gone to a public school. They were, for the most part, shit. We had too many people (not just from Mexico) who couldn’t read or write English. Now there is not enough housing, the streets aren’t wide enough for all the added traffic... it’s bursting at the seams. So yes, for me, it’s population control. I would love to see a requirement for one kid. (But I’m an only, so I’m a little biased.)
- I grew up in NorCal. I went to public schools. My mom was a public school teacher. There were still ESL classes back then for non native speakers. I think this was ended in the late 90s when I was finishing high school.
I’m not in favor of the government trying to control populations in either births or free movement. When the baby boom happened, the US built new infrastructure and more schools. But the roads and public transport were designed (in the Bay Area) just to get suburban commuters to their jobs - massively increased logistics and so on were not considered. I don’t think there’s a population problem in the abstract, I think there’s just been an austerity approach towards public services and so on for the last two generations.Nov 301
- Borders suck. Humans should be able to move freely anywhere in the world as long as they are not criminals and obey local laws
- ^lol, YES.
If you have an accident or developed an illness while living or working in Canada or the UK... you get treatment. You can’t go specifically just for that - seems like a reasonable restriction just as free treatment for any non-native visiting workers or residents also seems reasonable.
So let’s get free healthcare here and dump the stupid border and immigration restrictions, already.
- Illegal immigrants get free treatment in our ERs for life threatening conditions too.
I don't get your point. You would have 100 million people show up to a country to live and regularly use the "free" healthcare without ever having paid for it.
How do you balance THAT budget? Or would you deny open borders immigrants access to social services?
- ^they have to treat them, but it’s not free. They get billed and hounded by collection agencies.
You’re arguments are not logical because they are only ideological. You feel that undocumented immigrants must be doing something to hurt you. Meanwhile insurance companies try to offload patients and the banks I work with at my job all make tons of money while putting Americans in debt for life due to illness or the recession.
We’re being ripped off alright, but it’s not by some families looking for better job opportunities or fleeing violence.
- You're back to accusing me of racism in so many words. Illegal immigrants are making my taxes go up and crime to go up in my neighborhood so those are 2 very clear ways they are hurting their neighbors.
I get that you're an American leftist so you're very sensitive to "punching down" but you don't live in Honduras or Somalia or Moldova or India for a reason and it's not because of the problems with the banks
- Lol, I never mentioned race once.
But yeah, I’m a little sensitive to scapegoating anyone while letting people who actually make decisions about social programs, wages, and investment totally off the hook. This has made life worse for people like my parents and people I grew up with.
- We can discuss all problems. There's no shortage of real villains among political decision makers and boardroom executives. Everything from pointless wars, to repealing of Glass-Steagal, crooked capitalism, letting China take advantage of us on stupid trade deals leading to loss of manufacturing, etc.
But inviting in all the world's poor is going to make things a lot worse. You'll get a political and social structure similar to the 3rd world. A small ruling elite with fences and guards and all the money and power, ruling over an infinite servant/peasant class.
- End immigration controls, but also end the free stuff that acts as a magnet for people to come in.
- "Free" stuff: TANF, Medicaid, food stamps, Supplemental Security Program, Earned Income Tax Credit, Housing Assistance, roads, police, Emergency Rooms, K12 Education. Not to mention all the California programs like MediCal
And no, illegal immigrants and their kids consume way more of these services than they pay in taxes. And declaring open borders wouldn't fix it
I agree though, people do come to US for jobs. Think about the impact that has on the labor market.
- Where’s your evidence of undocumented immigrants coming here primarily for social programs? Legal immigrants have to show income to apply and then can’t collect benefits until they been here 5 years. (Also don’t show me any data based on “immigrant households” it has to be immigrant individuals for the data to be accurate.)
This is an ideological myth. The only link between welfare and undocumented immigrants is that conservatives don’t want either.
- I edited my post while you were writing your reply. I agree immigrants mostly come for jobs. But social assistance is part of the draw for illegal immigrants. It's effectively non-salary compensation.
I never linked welfare and legal immigrants. I linked illegal immigration and consuming more in social services than contributing to them. Open borders would get you exactly the same type of immigration as today's illegal immigration.
- “Open borders would get you exactly the same type of immigration as today's illegal immigration.”
Cool, so not a problem then. aAnd as a bonus the lack of repression would save taxes while also making it harder for crooked employers to use fear of state repression to pay “illegals” less or take advantage of them in other ways.
Immigrants are here. These restrictive policies do not stop them, they simply turn them into a lower caste of workers. This hurts immigrants and it hurts low income native-born people.
- You keep conflating illegal and legal immigration, it's really annoying.
No one wants MORE illegal immigration or open borders which gets you more unskilled workers. Even Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration for the same reasons I list.
The money spent on deportation and border enforcement pays for itself in spades.