Politics

There are open borders for money, but not people

Credit Karma EllisDee25
Nov 29, 2018

”Money can travel the globe virtually without restriction, in search of regulations that are weaker and labour that is cheaper.

When it does, it often displaces people: sucking investment and resources from one place at the flick of a switch; shutting down factories and shifting them to the other side of the world; or introducing automation that renders some professions obsolete. But those who find their lives turned upside down by the free movement of capital are often prevented from moving country and looking for work. People should have at least the same rights – or more, since humans are more valuable than money.
...
It is a fact, rarely stated but generally acknowledged and accepted, that the global poor should not be allowed to travel. That’s most of the world. As such, from the refugee camp in Calais to the rickety vessels on the Mediterranean, from Trump’s wall to the Berlin wall, the border stands as an ultimate point of confrontation in the broader dystopia we have made possible.

Nation states are a relatively new concept; migration is as old as humanity. Borders seek to regulate and restrict that basic human custom for the distinct purpose of excluding some and privileging others. They discriminate between all people with the express intention of then being able to discriminate against some people. They do not simply set boundaries for countries, but are metaphors for the boundaries of how we might think about other human beings. Immigrants are not the problem. Borders are.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/16/end-immigration-controls-money-people-barriers

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    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      @Sol1 The underlying premise is false. Regional development is economic, not based on the individuals.

      If it was, then America of the 1800s would have been mostly a giant potato farm like in Ireland or German states.

      This argument is basically just an update of the old: if we allow Chinese immigrate then we will become a heathen country or if we allow Irish then democracy will be overturned and replaced by papal theocracy.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      @Sol1, your underlying premise is still wrong. You are making a Malthusian argument based on the assumption that the relationship of humans to the economy is only one of consumption. This is untrue - especially for low wage earners - because each working person is also a producer of wealth. People earn (and therefore consume) less than the value of the work they do (or else companies would all loose money and fail).

      So it’s population growth that’s your concern? so you’re in favor of a one child policy for the US too? If not, why restrict able bodied young people looking for work while allowing more mooching, unemployed babies who won’t even try looking for work for at least a decade and a half?

      Also LOL... yes, you’re right, the US has no use for unskilled labor in this service and gig job economy when unemployment is low 🙄
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      ^you think agriculture and housing development is not profitable or doesn’t create value for anyone? Both rely on a lot of low paid informal and often undocumented labor.

      For example, do you think multi-generational immigrant families renting a house or young immigrants sharing a rental are using more housing value than they create if they work for a contractor building suburban developments?
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Uber (Admin)
      Ultimately, assuming we don't extinct ourselves, the Earth will fill up. That is indisputable. The same can be said of any other planet we settle.

      That doesn't mean that we need to close borders now, however. America is more prosperous now than when the population was much smaller. And Malthus would be shocked that there are this many people. We don't (the people in this conversation, at least) know the actual, practical capacity. So I lean towards liberalism if there's no good evidence to suggest it will cause harm.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      Capitalism 101: people are not paid based on the value they create. They are paid based on how replaceable they are and “the labor market”.

      Artisans were paid better than assembly line workers not because there were less people working on something, but because they understood and owned the whole process and kept that secret. They were not replaceable very quickly because it took years of apprenticeship for them to get there.

      Then automation make that job replaceable and divides up the work so that people are just cogs. A factory of 100 workers didn’t end up creating the value of 1 or even 100 artisans... they produced many 1000x what the artisan produced. But they got paid much much less.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      The cost of the tractor is fixed. It has a lifespan and runs down. Labor costs are not fixed and can be made to work overtime, can have their wages stagnate and and can be replaced nearly without additional cost (some training and HR costs... but it’s not like having to invest in new machinery all over again).

      Unless someone has innovated a new technology, machines don’t create new value. Whereas human labor is not a fixed value - it replenishes itself for the cost of basic necessities but produces more than the wages it cost.

      Our whole industry is basically focused around this - disruption is generally just getting rid of labor costs. People buy the tech but make money by having a leaner process where each worker is now able to do what required a bunch of dispatchers or other workers to do.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      I’m objecting to your conflation of wages and the value produced or the “worth” of that value. Again development and age are two major value-producing industries where people are not paid much. What kind of value would be lost if Walmart checkers or UPS drivers or agricultural workers went on strike for two weeks - not a big deal according to you because they don’t get paid much.

      Yes machines create products, but again, this is a fixed amount. You can’t offer overtime to get a machine to produce more. A machine can’t go home and cook a meal and return then next day as productive as the last. They are just used to amplify labor... your argument is like saying that binoculars see things better than people.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      I am arguing that if undocumented immigrants “drive down wages” it is because immigration restrictions make them easy to threaten and underpay them. Make immigration simply a matter of accounting and filling out some paperwork, grant basic rights and full labor and renter/homeowner rights and protections.

      The “problems” of undocumented immigration all stem from immigration policy and making migrant “illegal” - not from migration in the abstract.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Salesforce cold brew
      @ellis where did you grow up? I grew up in Southern California and I for one can tell you I would have never gone to a public school. They were, for the most part, shit. We had too many people (not just from Mexico) who couldn’t read or write English. Now there is not enough housing, the streets aren’t wide enough for all the added traffic... it’s bursting at the seams. So yes, for me, it’s population control. I would love to see a requirement for one kid. (But I’m an only, so I’m a little biased.)
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      I grew up in NorCal. I went to public schools. My mom was a public school teacher. There were still ESL classes back then for non native speakers. I think this was ended in the late 90s when I was finishing high school.

      I’m not in favor of the government trying to control populations in either births or free movement. When the baby boom happened, the US built new infrastructure and more schools. But the roads and public transport were designed (in the Bay Area) just to get suburban commuters to their jobs - massively increased logistics and so on were not considered. I don’t think there’s a population problem in the abstract, I think there’s just been an austerity approach towards public services and so on for the last two generations.
      Nov 30, 2018
  • Google nlogn
    It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls.
    Nov 29, 20180
  • Apple iPhone Xs
    Borders suck. Humans should be able to move freely anywhere in the world as long as they are not criminals and obey local laws
    Nov 29, 20184
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      ^lol, YES.

      If you have an accident or developed an illness while living or working in Canada or the UK... you get treatment. You can’t go specifically just for that - seems like a reasonable restriction just as free treatment for any non-native visiting workers or residents also seems reasonable.

      So let’s get free healthcare here and dump the stupid border and immigration restrictions, already.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      ^they have to treat them, but it’s not free. They get billed and hounded by collection agencies.

      You’re arguments are not logical because they are only ideological. You feel that undocumented immigrants must be doing something to hurt you. Meanwhile insurance companies try to offload patients and the banks I work with at my job all make tons of money while putting Americans in debt for life due to illness or the recession.

      We’re being ripped off alright, but it’s not by some families looking for better job opportunities or fleeing violence.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      Lol, I never mentioned race once.

      But yeah, I’m a little sensitive to scapegoating anyone while letting people who actually make decisions about social programs, wages, and investment totally off the hook. This has made life worse for people like my parents and people I grew up with.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Apple iPhone Xs
      Any social programs would only be given if that person is a working resident. People go on vacation to other countries all the time. You don’t accuse the tourists of trying to rip you off
      Nov 29, 2018
  • Amazon Jеff Bezоs
    Just look at the picture of the author.🙀
    Nov 29, 20182
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      What about it? What do you have against British people?
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Amazon Jеff Bezоs
      I see a very striking resemblance to the queen.
      Nov 29, 2018
  • Google d86gd2
    Nov 29, 20180
  • New
    TeeSeeGTFO

    New

    PRE
    Uber, Google
    BIO
    TC || GTFO
    TeeSeeGTFOmore
    End immigration controls, but also end the free stuff that acts as a magnet for people to come in.
    Nov 29, 20184
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      Lol, what free stuff? The stuff that the Republicans and Democrats have been cutting for 40 years?

      People come here for jobs.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • New
      TeeSeeGTFO

      New

      PRE
      Uber, Google
      BIO
      TC || GTFO
      TeeSeeGTFOmore
      Cutting it, but still haven’t gotten rid of it all.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      Where’s your evidence of undocumented immigrants coming here primarily for social programs? Legal immigrants have to show income to apply and then can’t collect benefits until they been here 5 years. (Also don’t show me any data based on “immigrant households” it has to be immigrant individuals for the data to be accurate.)

      This is an ideological myth. The only link between welfare and undocumented immigrants is that conservatives don’t want either.
      Nov 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      OP
      “Open borders would get you exactly the same type of immigration as today's illegal immigration.”

      Cool, so not a problem then. aAnd as a bonus the lack of repression would save taxes while also making it harder for crooked employers to use fear of state repression to pay “illegals” less or take advantage of them in other ways.

      Immigrants are here. These restrictive policies do not stop them, they simply turn them into a lower caste of workers. This hurts immigrants and it hurts low income native-born people.
      Nov 29, 2018
  • Microsoft russtroll
    OP just go to Mexico.
    Nov 29, 20180

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