I am left leaning. But I see no problem with Trump's idea of wall. What the hell is Dems problem if he only wants to stop "illegal immigration". Am I missing something?
- India, Israel, Jordan all have walls. Israel's wall is to explicitly keep it from bring demographically swamped (but they also racist as fuck, and don't recognize Jewish-non-Jewish marriages). India's wall is to prevent Bangladeshi Muslims from swamping non-Muslim states. Glad USA is willing to take in everyone from everywhere, at rates that transform places beyond recognition in one generation, regardless of education and cultural comparability.
- Finally, to clarify my position: I support legal immigration to the US, at a reasonable pace, and with pressure to assimilate. Legal immigrants should also be picked using a points system that is based on skills, not by optimizing for overall human good (I mean, it's pretty reasonable to want a country to optimize for the welfare of its citizenry primarily).
- It won't work, and it's a symbol of his xenophobia and incitement of hatred.
- It's a principled argument. Sure, the dollars aren't much compared to the budget (though I'm guessing NPR or PBS would love that much money), but it's really not the issue.
Trump's strength is that he has splintered opposition around various practical arguments, so the principled argument is the one that is easier to anchor to.
- A. Why not just resolve it like adults? Instead of taking Govt. hostages?
B. If you say yes to his tantrum now, he wins and Dems loose.
C. We have million other things to solve.
D. Why not a comprehensive immigration reform, let people come in legally, even for small jobs and make sure they go back.
E. Why the fuck H1b never go back and we do not say anything! A foreign worker should be here just temporarily, and than go the fuck back from where they came from.
F. If we want only highly skilled and educated people, we should have comprehensive immigration reform.
G. Only South Americans are the issue here??!!
- Expedia ExpdianIndia won't allow Sri Lankans or anyone else to immigrate. In fact almost no country outside the West allows any meaningful amount of immigration. Some countries grant a lot of work visas and treat those workers like absolute $hit (see the middle East). But hypocrites from all these countries will come here and complain of "racism".
- I have not once complained about racism. India does allow people to immigrate. There is anti immigrant sentiment in India just like the US, I do not deny that. I myself don't support illegal immigration because it adversely impacts legal immigrants too besides the natives. But I don't understand why people are hating those who come to the US legally. What is your solution-Don't allow any immigrants to come to the US? Rather than hating immigrants who come legally, change your immigration laws so that your immigration policies are not abused.
- max99 is all over the place...sounds like an adult who hates tantrums, but also sounds like a democrat, yet doesn't like immigrants, wants comprehensive immigration reform, but doesn't want legal immigrants, seems to like skilled migration but hates H1Bs who are vetted for skills, and ignores that many go back at the end of their visa terms too... 😵
- Why are you so defensive OP? Why do you have to say that you are left leaning?
You lost your credibility the moment you put that.
- May be guns were appropriate back then. I don’t think this gun culture helps as of now. Definitely don’t need the automatic crazy ones.
The rest of the world is doing fine with gun control. It is just us where we have so many gun tragedy every year. Any way we are pivoting from the topic.
- Assuming the wall works, it stops more that just illegal immigration. It stops asylum seekers as well, since they need to get into the country first to ask for asylum (despite what trumpers want you to believe, that is not illegal).
More likely, though, the wall will be ineffective, as people will just go over, under, around, or through it. And it's a gigantic waste of money that we could be spending elsewhere to shore up our crumbling infrastructure.
- You don't just go wander into your local embassy when you're fleeing persecution. And how many checkpoints will there be on the border? If you have to walk an extra hundred miles to find one, you might die, and if they're scattered across the whole border and adequately staffed, then why does there need to be a wall?
- Okay liberals, question for you.
If this wall is so terrible and won't work, why are you fighting against it? Wouldn't you want this total and utter failure on Trump's watch? If it fails you've got 2020 in the bag. Why so complain?
Flagged by the community.
- @max99 you are already taxed to shit, but the government outsourced the taxing.
You pay your private tax for healthcare, and for university and for unemployment insurance, etc.
Other "high tax" countries don't pay all these extras, because it's built in (except you don't need permission from an actuary to get medical treatment, like you do in the US).
- If Trump wanted to spend $5 billion to dig a hole in the ocean that would also be a spectacular failure, and A SPECTACULAR WASTE OF MY TAX DOLLARS. NO thank you.
This is not some juvenile political football game to me. This is MY TAX DOLLARS being wasted on some useless boondoggle. I'm against it because it's BAD POLICY.
- What you’re missing is the fact that illegal immigrants overwhelmingly vote democrat. Democrats know hat demographics is destiny so if they get enough illegals here (who then have legalized children), they will have a permanent majority forever. The only way they will lose is if republicans basically become democrats.
If hispanics voted republican there would have been a wall long before trump.
- Walls don't stop boats. Walls don't stop airplanes. Walls don't stop tunnels. If people want to get here, they'll find a way.
- Then do something constructive.
The "Great Wall" didn't save China from the Mongols. The Maginot Line didn't save France from the Germans. The "Iron Curtain" didn't keep the Eastern Bloc *IN*. And Trump's "Concrete Curtain" won't keep Mexicans out.
Let's try something that might have a ghost of a hope of working instead.
- T-Mobile ililililI like what you said and tend to hold the same viewpoint. Too many people fall into the generic belief of everything Trump does or tries to do is terrible because "it is Trump", instead of actually trying to discuss it like normal people.
- Reminder for those complaining about the cost of the wall:
California is building a $98 billion light rail that no one wants
- There is too much politics in politics...
Illegal immigration is a serious problem. But even based on the comments in this thread, most people seem to be concerned more about shitting on Trump, republicans, democrats, liberals, and arguing with each other meaninglessly.
Some parts of the border have had actual walls for ages, so it's not something new suggested. Whether to continue building the wall might be a controversial thing, but at least it's some idea, and it would definitely help (though, hard to measure how much). If some government folks have any better ideas/plans, instead of fighting the "wall" they should suggest another solution and be able to prove that it's going to work better. I fail to see anyone doing that.
- How is illegal immigration a serious problem?
By what metric? You got any data on this shit? It’s a minor issue at best.
They’re taking shitty jobs no one wants to do and their crime rate is actually less than avg Americans.
We got way worse problems than immigration. Trump just made it a problem by focusing on it because he’s failing at everything else he’s doing. Well he got a problem now. 🤣 He aint getting that wall and this shutdown is #trumpshutdown
- @Big Pun, how is illegal immigration *not* a serious problem? In 2017 and 2018 266k illegals with criminal records were arrested. Many people’s lives were destroyed because of some of these individuals. Can you honestly tell those people that it’s all the same and probably their life would have been eventually ruined by some legal resident anyway? If someone wants to come to this country and be a contributing member of society they can do it legally. I’m a *legal* immigrant myself.
- Yeah... +1 to what @leet_away wrote.
Also, I actually wonder why people don't understand the meaning of the word "illegal". Which means "against the law". And that every person, who enters the US illegally, by doing that already commits a crime.
Whether the migration law is good or not - that's a separate topic. But, as long as those laws exist, the authorities shall enforce them - just the same way as with handling murders, theft and everything else.
Whether the wall helps or not - well, any obstacle would prevent some activities, as it gets more difficult to perform those. If there are people at those walls who monitor crossing the borders, capture or shoot people, that will prevent those activities even more. It's also unclear to me how some folks may doubt the potential efficiency. What that exact efficiency would be and how to measure it in advance is unclear, though (this is what I wrote in my original comment).
The fun fact is that I wasn't arguing (and I actually never expressed my personal point of view with regard to the matter of "building the wall"), but just described my observations of people missing the real point and starting to argue and trying to prove some irrelevant things, and here we go - the first two people responding to my message did exactly that.
- Reduxio / Mktg Fnord28xmoreHi, I sold security systems at the Mexico border at a previous job. I'm not a citizen, so I can't comment on the Trump vs Democrats. But here's a few "facts":
1) There's less illegal immigration now than 10 years ago. In the case of illegal Mexicans, there's a reverse migration effect (Mexicans going back) that has been going on for a while.
2) More people enter the U.S. illegally by over-staying their visas than through the border.
3) Fully stopping people + drugs from entering through the border is nearly impossible. Cartels have highly sophisticated systems, engineers building tunnels, and infrastructure to continue moving merchandise to and from the U.S.
(Cartels have paved highways, built cell phone networks and developed ton of infrastructure).
So, the wall is not really a solution to stopping illegal immigration and drugs.
- Do you have any data for #2 or are you just shooting from the hip?
Regarding #1 it doesn’t matter that levels are lover than in the 2000s. What matters is that 50k+ have been caught trying to cross illegally in November and who knows how many made it through. That’s 0.5M-0.6M people per year. Something needs to be done. And so far physical barrier have worked very well for Hungary’s 500km+ southern border. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier
- I love when people say “I’m a democrat but...”. Then go on to say they support something that no Democrat supports.
How desperate are these Trumptards that go around claiming to be Democrat or liberal and bs? Taking a page out of their Russian friends playbook?
- @Big Pun, there's no need to be counterproductive.
OP has not said they're a Democrat. Even if they had, it is possible to have legitimate, rational disagreements on policy.
Trying to "other" people who don't toe the party line perfectly is the hyper-partisanship that's gotten the country into this mess.
- Immigration policy is one thing that we can have an intelligent debate about, the wall is just an absurd idea that we shouldn't waste our thought or our money on.
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- Airbnb wall?moreIt should be built. This country’s system stopped working. China’s system is looking pretty good right now.
- Uber @_@_I’m very very right leaning but this buffoon has made a mockery of the most serious office in the country.
- Oath newuserymoreWe already have a wall in places where needed on the border. Trumps wall is a symbol of xenophobia. Plus he has no plan on where the wall will be added and how much it will cost
- That’s false information. There are portions without a natural barrier and without man made barrier that need to be dealt with. Also, trump sent the Democrats detailed breakdown on how the 5.7B would be spent. Ask the border patrol agents what they need to do their jobs more effectively, don’t believe politician’s talking points from either side of the isle and see what you get...
- Apple fu manchuYou’re missing the fact that he’s shutting down the government and punishing and holding hostage 800k workers as families as leverage to get a wall that he never even tried to build or fund the past 2 years with a full majority in the house and senate after claiming about 1000 times that Mexico will pay for it.
The Dems completely disagree with his manufactured claims of a crisis at the border. It has no basis in reality. He’s using fear mongering and lying to say we must have a wall when even the southern states say that a wall isn’t the most effective solution or needed at the moment. They require other solutions other than a wall. The Dems won’t agree for funding until they can come to agreement on the right solutions that will actually work. Not just what Trump cooked up in his head and campaigned on.
Therefore the only solution forward is to reopen the government and come to agreement on what needs to be done rather than just give Trump what he’s demanding.
There’s zero incentive for democrats to give into trump. He has no more leverage. He’s losing support in the GOP and in the senate. People are being hurt by the shutdown. Welfare and food stamp checks aren’t being printed. Many people being hurt are veterans and Trump voters. Tax season is here and he risks delaying refund checks. Government workers are being forced to work without pay, risking security of our ports and border crossings and airport security.
Trump is just insane and lost his mind. This will end with him declaring a national emergency and stealing funds from the pentagon to try and build a wall and then reopen the government. The courts will immediate block Trumps EO, because it’s a phony national emergency. He may change his mind after this and veto the spending bill and eventually congress will have support to override his veto.
It’s one big disaster 💯 created by Trump.
- Google gt6N14But in all honesty I sort of agree that the wall is needed in some places. Parts of the southwest are cartel smuggling corridors and a wall + more patrols would do wonders to slow their operations.
Too bad the sensible subtexts get buried under the political shit flinging.
- A less talked about point: putting up a wall on the border would destroy habitat used by animals who don't carry passports and visit checkpoints.
- Microsoft Raindrop1There many reasons why the resistance to the wall makes sense. Five billion is the down payment for a much larger project with an unknown price tag. Also walls became a lot less effective after cannons were invented (see Constantinople). Now we have things like airplanes, tunnels, ladders, and boats. The Rio Grande river is the boarder for a large area, and it is impractical to build a wall next to a river. Much of the land is privately owned, which means that a wall would require a massive use of eminent domain and the inevitable court proceedings. Last, and certainty not least, the ecological damage from a wall would be large and there would be court proceedings around that as well.
At the end of the day, the wall is an ill conceived boondoggle that began life as a reminder to an absent minded presidential candidate to talk about immigration. I can think of much better things for my tax dollars to be spent on.
- As others have said the issue is the symbolism.
I think the broader question is what does it say when the supposed world’s greatest superpower shuts down 25% of the federal workforce and forces part of it to work for free over a fucking wall? A wall. Not over inequality, not over homicide rates, not over our ballooning deficit, a wall... concrete, wood, metal, whatever it will be, it’s a glorified fence...
America is so divided I don’t think she can stand.
- Cisco @⭐️For or against the wall is irrelevant now.
The question now is can the executive branch hold the legislative branch hostage? And are we happy with that precedence being set, and therefore happening more in the future?
- VMware / Finance acmfmoreBuilding a wall, beyond anything else, is very symbolic. Being European, this wall reminds me of terrifying things that happened in the past... All our parents generation are marked by this wall. I can’t understand why there is history if politicians cannot use it to understand the present and craft a better future...
- Aren’t democrats supposed to be the party of science, facts, and supporting women? Why do you deny facts presented by your own side?
HuffPo: 80% Of Central American Women, Girls Are Raped Crossing Into The U.S.
CNN: Clashes between drug cartels killed more people than conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan
- The wall will work. That’s why liberals are so desperately afraid of it
- Uber xkhd80There are alternative and more effective methods of border security. Many dems support border security contrary to popular belief.
- It will require many, many times the $5 billion that is being asked for, which is enough to build about 200 miles, or ~1/10 of the length of the border with Mexico, if it's on budget. If the Democrats capitulate now, what happens when he asks for $50b next year, and threatens to shut down the government without it? They have a much weaker position.
As for his talking points, about half of illegal immigration comes from overstaying visas, and almost all drugs smuggled into the country enter through legal ports of entry. Arrests at the border in the last few years are at the lowest they've been in decades. The wall will not solve the problems that Trump outlines.
- We send $100 billion in foreign aid every year. We spend hundreds of billions on welfare programs when half of it is wasted on able bodied people. If the wall cost $50bil it is money well spent. How much money were we spending to have our troops in Syria every year.
- OP, show, don’t say!
There’s a GoFundMe page where you can donate if you like. At current rate it will take 15 years to reach 1B goal.
Or do you only believe in cheap talk and hatred only?
- The idea of a barrier is fine. Defaulting to a wall without a discussion is dumb. Calling it “National Emergency” is a hoax and blatant lie.
Let’s assume we build the steel slats “wall”.
If I was a coyote or whatever, I would go to a section of the wall that is not actively surveilled and blow it up with a bomb from Mexico’s side. Then I got a business. Do you think Mexican narcos won’t have firepower to blow the fucking wall? They will do it and own the crossing business much more.
What if Amazon developed a solution for a barrier? How would that look like?
- Yes. You are missing the point that you are no longer left but far right.
- Two third of illegal immigrants enter US legally, then they overstate and become illegal. A wall won’t stop that.
Drug traffic comes from Mexico through China, only 10% is actually controlled, a wall won’t stop that.
We need border security but in an intelligent way. The main driver of human trafficking is economic. Then let’s start from there:
1. Hit hard the banks that clean money from illegal trafficking (humans, drugs, arms, etc) like HSBC.
2. Hit hard those businesses that “hire” illegal immigrants by improving eVerify and raiding them
3. Hire more judges to speed up asylum requests.
- Trump is not asking for the wall due to his genuine concern for national security. He promised a wall to get elected and the message was simple enough for his core supporters to understand and get excited about. Now to get re-elected Trump has to deliver on that, even if he knows it’s useless.
If Democrats cave in this will be a massive victory for Trump given the drama this has.
In my opinion, this should’ve been handled better by Democrats. Y not making it a big deal. The wall will prove useless and too expensive after the building starts and will get abandoned. Trump, if he gets a second term won’t give a flying fuck if the wall is built or not
- You know what, on second thought if they took that 5B from our military budget to build that wall I wouldn't mind it so much. Otherwise I just think it's a terrible waste of money that could be better spent solving other problems such as education, healthcare, environmental protection, homelessness, etc. So if they decide they want to build fewer war planes and tanks and put up a wall, then I guess that's okay.
- Electric fence with high powered lasers to obliterate the "illegals"?!