Uber's IPO Filing Shows How Much of a Lead It Has on Rival Lyft

Nvidia ML👍
Apr 11 178 Comments

2018 Revenue
———————

Uber: $11.3 billion

Lyft: $2.2 billion

2018 Loss
—————

Uber: $1.85 billion (Adjusted EBITDA loss)

Lyft: $911 million

Total Cities
—————

Uber: 700+ (globally)

Lyft: 300+ (across U.S. and Canada)

2018 Booking revenue from ride-hailing service
——————————————————-

Uber: $41.5 billion

Lyft: $8.1 billion

Users in 2018
——————-

Uber: 91 million (including other services like Uber Eats)

Lyft: 30.7 million

Drivers in 2018
———————

Uber: 3.9 million

Lyft: 1.9 million

Rides in 2018
——————

Uber: 5.2 billion (includes scooter and bike rides, Uber Eats deliveries)

Lyft: 619 million

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TOP 178 Comments
  • Indeed / Eng teeni
    Or groupon of coupons
    Apr 11 18
    • Uber Yaka
      @goodforu u seem to be super bitter
      Apr 12
    • PayPal blindly45
      Uber, Lyft and all their competitors, even pure self driving ones like Waymo are a US solve for a US problem. You got so f****ed over by the car and oil industry that you have a shitty, close to nonexistent public transport system. No one who can avoid using it will. Ride sharing services are the product and continuation of this lobbying effort.

      Ppl in Europe don't need Uber. It's okay to take a cab that might be more expensive once or twice a week when getting home after drinks, because my f-ing commute is like 2 bucks or less. And faster, because trains don't get stuck in rush hour.
      Apr 12
    • @ yaka . Maybe a realist? I don't don't stock your koolaid, and so far the market agrees with me
      Apr 12
    • Uber Yaka
      @goodforu how does the market agree with you? Uber isn't even public yet. People who are shorting Lyft won't necessarily do that for Uber. Might want to wait a couple of quarters to see what happens
      Apr 12
    • Amazon ASXF21
      Uber is good for us minorities. No more rejections or drivers abandoning you to your luck late at night.
      Apr 13
  • Facebook
    We Will

    Facebook

    PRE
    Google
    We Willmore
    👌

    Uber might be heading towards Amazon of transportation
    Apr 11 9
    • New / Eng Mr PIP
      Big difference between Uber and Amazon: Amazon is led by a visionary founder, Uber is led by a careerist CEO who replaced visionary founder.
      Apr 12
    • Twitch fgyrth
      You mean a crook founder who’d have gone to jail if uber was public at that time?
      Apr 12
    • Apple csOE05
      When 2 competitors IPO near the same time, it’s a race to the bottom. Remember Zillow group and Trulia?
      Apr 12
    • Expedia pERd08
      Dara is a great CEO. The worst thing to ever happen to expedia was his departure.
      Apr 12
    • Uber Nikki K
      You can have him back, Expedia
      Apr 16
  • Microsoft / Eng dKWp30
    Uber is burning through cash like crazy. Does it have a viable plan to become profitable?
    Apr 11 23
    • Google praise
      I agree it's expensive, but for MAGA, not so much. These guys are having more free cash flow each quarter than the total cash in hand of Uber. Also the discounts won't be permanent. It's only till the remaining players choke and die. Lyft will get hit first, then Uber.

      Uber S1 said they lost $10B in 3/4 years. Google paid almost 6/7B in fines without anyone noticing it.

      So as I said, it will be super expensive, but if someone is willing to lose the money, not that hard.
      Apr 13
    • Uber / R&D jidao
      Sure but what is the Amazon network effect that can't be bought? Every network effect can be bought with enough money
      Apr 13
    • Google praise
      Yes. Even Amazon network can be bought. You need to offer enough subsidies to buyers and sellers.

      Typical example of network that can't be bought is Instagram/Facebook. You won't go if your friends don't go to the new network.
      Apr 13
    • Uber / R&D jidao
      Disagree, you can pay each individual to come over, now some network effect is more expensive than others but every network effect can be bought with enough money.

      Now I'm not saying Uber is the same as Amazon, just it's ridiculous to eat that Uber doesn't have a network effect because if you throw enough money you can enter the market. It's true for every market... Just some market have a stronger network effect (in more expensive to disturb) than others but there is definitely a network effect in ride sharing business
      Apr 13
    • Google praise
      Paying each individual user to come over is hard because the relationship is far more complex than Uber. Uber relationship is basically two entities drivers and riders unlike Facebook which has more actors and complex relationships between them.

      Another factor to consider is Uber is much more localized than Amazon/fb. A competitor doesn't even have to compete on a mass scale. He can focus on top cities and compete. Although Uber doesn't disclose but it would be top heavy just like many other companies as in few cities driving majority of the revenue. A competitor has to get in only in those areas.

      Absolutely I don't deny the network effect part. My point being it is far easier to break the network or join the network as compared to other network effect businesses.
      Apr 13
  • Microsoft iamainot
    Incorrect. Lyft was for sale just a couple of years ago but now is kicking Uber’s ass in the US and will eventually internationally as well. Uber’s bro culture was exposed for what it was, and they have entered full damage control mode since the new CEO took over. Damage control mainly focused on sealing the leaks, not rebuilding from within though.

    Given both of those companies are considered “growth” plays, who do you think will grow more?
    Apr 11 7
    • Two Sigma blarh
      "Kicking uber's ass" yet is still significantly beat out in market share just in the us 🤔
      Apr 12
    • Uber gatopan
      I joined Uber in late 2017 for the bro culture and the parties , found out a bunch of boring and nice people passionate about their jobs

      Thinking of switching to fb to make crazy money from selling ads and my low ethics
      Apr 12
    • Microsoft iamainot
      The world might have moved on but I haven’t. Too old school for you?

      And yes, kicking ass by going from being for sale to actually putting a very significant dent into Uber’s market share.

      Uber really had a chance to be the hottest IPO but they fucked it up. Buy/stay there at your own risk.
      Apr 12
    • Uber muressdfg
      I am also disappointed that no bros and rockstars around. it is like microsoft with 2x pay.
      Apr 12
    • Two Sigma blarh
      Shut up microsoft lol
      Apr 13
  • Microsoft Cheech🔥
    If uber ever turns profitable they should acquire Tesla
    Apr 11 3
    • Amazon hsl44428q
      Uber isn't going to have the capital. At best your looking at a merger. They IPO at $90B, which will likely be $60B by the end of the year
      Apr 12
    • Tesla 100thieves
      Lol no please. Tesla is a sinking ship.
      Apr 12
    • Hired VseC37
      Explain please?
      Apr 12
  • Salesforce Engforce
    5 times more revenue and 2 times more lost. And they are operating in non-US cities which are supposed to be less profitable.

    Uber is way ahead here.
    Apr 11 2
    • Medallia / Eng ouie
      That was one fucking year. How can people like this comment?
      Apr 12
    • Uber / R&D jidao
      Because we work so Uber
      Apr 13
  • Uber ccvbjkn
    What those numbers actually show is how much Lyft is exaggerating and fudging numbers.

    The cities number couldn’t make it more obvious. 300+ vs 700+ when they are both in all the same cities in the US and Canada and Uber is in multiple cities in like 68 other countries. Lyft probably counts each suburb of a major city as another city. Using Lyft’s metric, Uber’s count would probably be 3000+ cities.

    Same goes for the driver and rider counts. Lyft is probably counting everyone that has ever driven or been driven and Uber is probably counting monthly active drivers and riders.

    I don’t know how anyone could believe that Lyft is doing like 1/5 the gross bookings with half as many drivers in a market with a very high relative PPP. Even if that were true, that’s atrocious efficiency.
    Apr 12 3
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      You work at Uber, you should be aware of this https://www.uber.com/cities/

      About half of the cities are actually in North America. For example, in whole South Asia, in market of over 2 billion people, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh, Uber is operating in 22 cities combined
      Apr 12
    • Uber ccvbjkn
      We stopped thinking in terms of cities launched ages ago.

      Edit: for example, I’m flying into a city next week that has Uber but isn’t on that list and is about 3-4 hours from the closest city on that list.
      Apr 12
    • New / Mgmt
      xyz69

      New Mgmt

      BIO
      Senior management in software development
      xyz69more
      What these numbers are showing is that both Uber and Lyft have an unhealthy business model and will not stay afloat for more than a couple of years. It's time for competition with a better business model. The technology isn't that special, you just need to be able to enter this insane market.
      Apr 13
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • LinkedIn Microsoft
      But how are self driving cars even going to be profitable? The best thing about Ubers current situation is they don't have to buy, maintain or insure the cars or pay for the fuel. Its the drivers problem and comes out of their income.

      Once uber goes driverless it's expenses will REALLY go through the roof.
      Apr 12
    • Intel / Eng Ayy lmao
      Why would Uber buy self driving cars? They can just integrate a fleet owned by the manufacturer with their ride hailing service.
      Apr 12
    • Nvidia bdei51
      Self driving car gets rid of drivers expenses
      Apr 12
    • EY md646
      We'll have to see how their insurance expenses change once they go driverless. Uber pays massive amounts for 3rd party insurance and reinsures the policies. They have $10B in investments. Probably mostly related to reinsurance
      Apr 12
    • Microsoft sqiF24
      Pinning hopes on automated cars is a recipe for failure. They are a decade away from becoming reality at best.
      Apr 12
  • Microsoft
    Tier 1

    Microsoft

    BIO
    #1 in Prestige
    Tier 1more
    How is Lyft burning so much more cash per ride?
    Apr 12 5
    • Uber Yaka
      They were trying to buy marketshare in time for their S-1
      Apr 12
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      Probably not only marketshare but also to increase revenue. Pretty sure Uber tried that too. “Loss from operation” jumped 38% from Q3 to Q4
      Apr 12
    • Uber $ROPE
      Lyft isn't nearly as well optimized as we are. They haven't built out their infrastructure (which is starting to pay off), they haven't optimized their routing (so they're bleeding money on Shared) and they don't have other verticals they're in.
      Apr 12
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      I agree with the verticals, particularly freight seems a interesting. Other points are not competitive advantage
      Apr 12
    • Uber Yaka
      It's a competitive advantage if it is cash flow positive
      Apr 12
  • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
    I highly recommend listening to equity podcast by TechCrunch. Particularly alarming here is Uber’s quarterly revenue growth. Uber revenue grew by only 1% from Q3’18 to Q4’18!!! Operational cost went up by a lot this time but accounting did trick by showing $1M tax credit in Q3 and $322M tax credit in Q4! Also YoY quarterly growth is 22% (S1 page 122). One article by The Verge today showed there’s no way scooter share will make money. These companies are going IPO when growth rate really slowed down. When you are making loss like this if you don’t grow you cannot make money ever, period.
    Apr 12 9
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      @Uber, I am looking at revenue numbers. What you keep after paying drivers/partners, and before considering promotions, operations cost etc. This is how these companies will report revenue numbers going forward as well, right?
      Apr 12
    • Facebook DefNotZuck
      “We’re investing in our drivers” rofl 😂
      Apr 13
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      This is how investment looks like in P.22 of the S1 - “we continue to experience dissatisfaction with our platform from a significant number of Drivers. In particular, as we aim to reduce Driver incentives to improve our financial performance, we expect Driver dissatisfaction will generally increase.”
      Apr 13
    • eBay / IT
      manorama

      eBay IT

      BIO
      Coder
      manoramamore
      Seriously did they write this so explicitly?
      Apr 13
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      Just search the text in s1
      Apr 13
  • Intuit PureGuava
    It’s a taxi company run by sleazeballs that screws over their employees. Doesn’t sound like a good long term investment to me.
    Apr 12 9
    • Intuit PureGuava
      Never heard of any of those.
      Apr 13
    • Intuit PureGuava
      Yellow cab, checker cab...
      Apr 13
    • Uber SupBrah
      Point proven Uninformed comment. 🙃
      Apr 13
    • Uber swab75
      I think it’s sleazy to lobby Congress to make tax filing more complicated and expensive so that people use TurboTax. 🤷🏾‍♂️

      At least Uber doesn’t lobby to create the problems it tries to solve.
      Apr 13
    • Intuit PureGuava
      True dat. So?
      Apr 15
  • Uber yuierr
    The number also doesn’t capture Uber’s stake in Didi, grab and yandex and even careem
    Basically Uber has finished burning money on these markets at the pre-ipo phase.

    Imagine lyft now try to enter these markets. They need to spend tens of billions to get significant shares but that’s just not possible because they are now a public company. The entry boundary to those mature markets is becoming even costly too.

    China market for example (the biggest consumer market, larger than US) will probably forever be locked for lyft, but as Didi grows Uber will enjoy its 17% share as China economy expands too.
    Apr 12 5
    • eBay / IT
      manorama

      eBay IT

      BIO
      Coder
      manoramamore
      @Uber did not get your point about being public company and hence can’t burn money or enter different stakes ?
      Apr 12
    • Uber yuierr
      Uber burnt billions to gain a good potion of Chinese market shares hence negotiated 17% share of didi to exit. That was back in the day when there was no finance governances and no pressure from board members and stakeholders. Founder can just spend whatever he wanted.

      Being public company you need to answer all critics from stakeholders on why you burn more money. The financial reports itself will get your CFO killed.

      Also put this way, the entire cash reserve from lyft (with raised new capital from ipo) is not going to be enough for a market entry to Chinese market, let alone whether they can spend them all there.
      Apr 12
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      Didi is a good example how the growth is slowed, their valuation basically hasn’t changed much in last two years even after driving off a big competitor https://www.wsj.com/articles/taxi-app-that-drove-uber-from-china-sees-its-valuation-stall-11555071683
      Apr 12
    • Uber / Ops Hd63gf7
      Didi has very big competitors now in China
      Apr 12
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      Right. So Uber’s growth slowed down significantly and their international investments also stopped growing in some of the biggest markets. India market stopped growing as well where Uber saw only 7.6% growth in 2018

      https://m.economictimes.com/small-biz/startups/newsbuzz/uber-ola-enter-slow-lane-in-2018/articleshow/65927443.cms

      I don’t think Lyft or any other international players are going to burn money in those markets
      Apr 12
  • Amazon / Other yvrzonian
    Uber will be the company remembered with the fastest 100bn downfall in the early 21st century.
    Apr 12 3
    • Facebook dhjdnxnsms
      In your dreams.
      Apr 12
    • Uber ZombieZoo
      Sounds like someone is biting his nails for not being a part of it.
      Apr 12
    • New / Product
      fAUI50

      New Product

      PRE
      Nokia
      fAUI50more
      AOL Time Warner is the gold standard to beat here
      Apr 13
  • Nvidia madd
    Isn't Uber in like 50x countries than Lyft but users, drivers, rides and revenues are 2-5x. Doesn't that mean they're just ripping off poor countries where there is less competition?
    Apr 11 2
    • Cruise Automation ggghhh
      That would imply people would be willing to pay that much for a ride. If they price it too high, public transport would still be a better choice.
      Apr 12
    • Uber / Eng
      sight

      Uber Eng

      PRE
      Facebook, Cisco, Dell
      sightmore
      There is competition in every region. Didi, Grab, Yandex, Lyft, Ola to name a few. Uber is the only truly global player out of the bunch. Where competition has been fierce Uber has exited the regions and negotiated stakes in the competition while doing so.
      Apr 12
  • Airbnb cxUyyW
    I am actually shocked at how small the difference is. I was expecting more like a 10x difference in users, revenues, etc given that Lyft is US-only. Shows you just how massive the US market is I guess.
    Apr 12 6
    • Airbnb cxUyyW
      What’s the difference? I thought uber was being more liberal with their definitions given that Uber eats is included
      Apr 12
    • Uber vhuygdf
      Take one of the things you mentioned, users, for example. In rideshare, users are riders and drivers. There are many ways to count these users. You can count anyone that has ever used the service or just count those that have used the service over a fixed duration like a day, week, month, quarter, etc.

      If two companies use a different duration, the numbers are no longer directly comparable. This is one example of how numbers may not be comparable, there are many many more if you dig down into both prospectuses.

      You’ll have to do your own analysis since I won’t comment on our prospectus in any specific terms.
      Apr 12
    • Uber vhuygdf
      That’s just one example. There are others
      Apr 13
    • Airbnb cxUyyW
      Very interesting. My Lyft puts are looking forward to a detailed comparison being made by some journalist soon.
      Apr 14
    • Uber vhuygdf
      Journalists need to start grilling Lyft on their figures. Measuring quarterly is completely non-standard. The measures that matter most are monthly, weekly and daily average users.

      Same goes for drivers. Their figure for number of drivers makes no sense unless they are counting every driver that has ridden for them. I think they are claiming like 1.9 million while Uber reports 3.9 million. Even if that was accurate, it would be insane for them to be producing 1/5 of the gross receipts of Uber with 1/2 the drivers. That efficiency makes no sense. I’m honestly shocked no one that calls themselves a journalist have called out these blatant inconsistencies.
      Apr 14
  • Salesforce hypeforce
    For fifth of revenue and fifth of user adoption, lyft managed to incur half of uber's losses. Doesn't scale.
    Apr 12 0
  • Bank of America / IT
    biggie8

    Bank of America IT

    BIO
    I have 20+ experience in tech and banking
    biggie8more
    I like Lyft
    Apr 12 1
    • Uber Kulu
      I prefer chase
      Apr 13
  • Microsoft FBisEvil
    All it shows is that these money losing operations are desperate to cash out and unload their shot equity to unsuspecting retail investors before this business cycle turns.
    Apr 12 0
  • Lyft / HR
    Iranian

    Lyft HR

    PRE
    Startups.co
    Iranianmore
    Lyft is growing faster and has higher retention rates with key demos. We’ll see how the actual Self-driving systems role out, but don’t be surprised if Lyft has the better UX through partnerships.... Uber’s Tech isn’t going to hold up or keep up ;-)
    Apr 12 4
    • Uber vhuygdf
      Can’t wait for you to see your Q1 results.
      Apr 12
    • Google praise
      Did Uber put their Q1 in S1 filing? I am curious to see the growth specially because Q4 growth was around 25%.
      Apr 12
    • Lyft OLyT81
      Numbers are better than what the market would expect considering all the negative sentiment about lyft
      Apr 12
    • Uber IamDara
      Of course an HR rep would say that
      Apr 13
  • Do you think uber might buy Lyft at some point ?
    Apr 12 5
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      We don’t want that as customers :)
      Apr 12
    • So that be definition means both have thier place.
      Apr 12
    • Uber $ROPE
      The first rule of being a monopoly is to not look like a monopoly. We get to own the market and let it look like Lyft has a chance in hell.
      Apr 12
    • Lyft / HR
      Iranian

      Lyft HR

      PRE
      Startups.co
      Iranianmore
      No lmao
      Apr 12
    • Qualtrics ❄️IsComing
      I also think Uber wants Lyft to be alive, though how much risky it sounds. As soon as Lyft is out new unpredictable players will jump in. This thing is happening in China right now
      Apr 13

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