What are HR1044/S386? A few questions.

Amazon Hasha
Jul 12 81 Comments

Why do people care? People on blind usually don’t care about politics, and they just care about TC.

I read both bills. I have some questions:
1. People say it will only benefit some specific groups, and hurt most. I don’t see it. It seems fair, right?

2. Why do we only change the way of distributing GC, instead of increasing the number? Who came up with the bill in the first bill.

3. Why does diversity matter?

4. How will it affect US tech industry?

5. Will it lower wages?

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TOP 81 Comments
  • Google 武当派
    Because so far only 1 country has priority date back in 2009 due to their own outsourcing consulting industry issue.

    If this bill passed, then starting from 2022, any new EB2/EB3 GC applicants from the rest of the world would have to wait for at least 6 years before USCIS could finish granting GCs to huge amount of nationals from that single country who submitted applications during 2009 - 2021.

    Consequences:
    1) all major tech companies could then be dominated by workers, managers, directors and senior execs from one single country. Not every company promotes diversity as those big ones in today’s Silicon Valley, so employees from a single country could form an inner circle such that it could be very difficult for people from other countries to get hired or promoted;

    2) H1Bs from other countries who started working after 2022 could risk using up the 6-year H1B term and be forced to leave the US (re @Marijuana: think about that if they get a PIP or layoff in the 5th or 6th year, and cannot jump ship quick enough with enough time left to redo the PERM-140 process, this is NOT “fake news”.)
    Jul 12 15
    • Apple Marijuana
      If they're skilled and have 5 years of experience at Google they can find a job very easily if they think a PIP is forthcoming. Hired.com etc etc

      If you're arguing that you're a special snowflake compared to other Googlers (or Apple folks or whatever company) because you were born in a small country and they were not, you're just a racist.
      Jul 12
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      Point number 2 is pure fake news. Clearly the Google guy has no clue about PERM and I-140 process. If 180 days pass from i140 approval date, then (previous) employer withdrawing application has no effect and new application from new employer retains the old priority date. The only way anyone on H-1B needs to leave the country after 6 years is if no employer files GC for that person. In fact u can continue with the exact same i140 as long as your PD does not become very current. So please stop spreading misinformation
      Jul 12
    • Google 武当派
      I don’t want to waste time to argue with you on those details.

      Re-fling PERM takes at least 8-10 months, and there is chance of additional time for PERM auditing or RFE, and not every company has such patience, not every company is willing to pay for filing this and filing that and not every company allows starting immigration process on the first day of joining (e.g. some orgs in Amazon only support GC for senior SDEs).

      After all, why would a ROW H1B who can get GC typically in less than 3 years have to let pass this bill and get himself/herself in such hassle and inconvenience?
      Jul 12
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      WTF are you talking about? Do you realize the BS you just dumped? Difficulty/time taken for filing PERM has nothing to do with country caps. Even with 7% country cap all the statements you made above will hold true. If you manage to file PERM (forget about getting it approved, we are just talking about filling) even then h1b is extended beyond 6 years in 1 year increments. So where does the question of someone having to leave after 6 years because of this bill arise ?
      Jul 12
    • Intel / Eng sandycrush
      🦗
      Jul 13
  • Google / Eng 😁😁1
    1) it is fair.

    2) it's a 15 year old bill by Rep Lofrgen.

    3) diversity doesn't matter in employment GC. There is a specific visa for that it's called diversity GC (duh!)

    4. It will increase tech wages.

    5. If will increase wages, since a more mobile labor force will increase wages for all. Time and again studies have said that a more mobile labor force increases wages.
    Jul 12 6
    • Yahoo / Eng putrsv
      As an immigrant I do not support this in the benefit of just one country at the sacrifice of 194 other countries.
      Jul 12
    • SAP woos
      Said another way, one could say you'd like to enjoy the privilege of your country of birth rather than fight it out over meritocracy
      Jul 12
    • Apple / Eng 🐒codemonk
      Could you elaborate how it will increase tech salaries? People are talking about all that outsourcing stuff
      Jul 12
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      And how about non-tech industries?

      Current bill will let tech take all GCs and leave nothing to other critical industries like nursing.
      Jul 12
    • Amazon senat
      If you want to oppose this bill you NEED to call your senator and complain

      Look at all the posts getting flagged, there is an organized cabal of bullies who want to silence the majority of people who oppose this.

      Over 60% of the backlog is consulting applicants who have little merit and should never have gotten into the US.

      It will create a ten year wait for everyone, and the backlog will only grow because it does nothing to limit the number of applicants or increase the number of visas, so before long it'll be a 100 year wait for everyone. It makes absolutelyno progress towards merit based immigration

      And here's the kicker: due to spillover, India is already getting around 46% of all the visas, far beyond their 17% of world population, and these are mostly low paid workers who undercut and lower local wages.
      Jul 12
  • Apple / Eng Marijuana
    1. Yes it is fair. Whenever you end a discriminatory system, those who benefit or feel entitled to benefit from that system find equality to be oppression.

    2. It's important to understand that immigration is an ongoing debate, so nothing can be done that makes any stakeholder feel like they lose cards in ongoing negotiation. Raising the number of skilled green cards might not be something Democrats would want to allow to pass the House, unless they also get some concessions for dreamers, chain migration, or whatever other type of immigration they want.

    3. Diversity of employees in the workplace is important. Do not conflate who works at the company with who gets green cards. If every Indian national at Apple gets a green card overnight, that will have zero change to Apple's diversity numbers tomorrow. The current system encourages employers, particularly bad ones, and also hiring managers at faang companies, to hire more Indians and Chinese keep them indentured for long periods of time, because their labor-market mobility is constricted until the employee receives a green card. Hiring managers love employees who are less likely to leave.

    4. There will be new startups launched by people who have a long track record of success in the US and are finally able to freely do so once they get their green card.

    5. It will increase wages because it increases job mobility for a critical mass of employees who are currently not able to move freely between jobs. Restricting job mobility depresses wages, this bill does the opposite.

    Additionally, if the Senate agrees to the amended version (The amendment adds sections 3, 4, and 5 of https://www.dropbox.com/s/tcqv5zwcv095pc1/S.386_Amended_Section_by_Section_Analysis.pdf ) then:

    The amended version will be even better for wages, because it adds transparency through the online job portal, strengthens enforcement of labor laws, and makes it harder for the scammy lower paying staffing firms to get visa approvals going forward. This will be overall good for the US tech industry, except for the bad staffing firms.
    Jul 12 17
    • Walmart.com 🌲50
      Marijuana and Wharton - good analysis and posts. Otherwise it's a total sh*tshow of chronic inability to reason and fear mongering
      Jul 12
    • Bloomberg lowlowtc
      wharton what it means is you can maybe come up with a bill that removes unqualified consultant from the queue in stead of taking other countries quota. And calling me racist on this just sounds like you're trying to dodge the fact all these are the consequences of them SPAMMING THE GC SYSTEM and you want others to bear the results.
      Jul 12
    • Apple Wharton
      Why would ANY SINGLE democrat agree to remove anyone out? They want to keep 11 million illegals in.
      Jul 12
    • Bloomberg lowlowtc
      Then maybe come up with a bill that increase India GC quota only, why take others?
      Jul 12
    • Apple Wharton
      I have no idea what you're trying to say. If you're suggesting that the total number of employment based green cards be raised over 140,000 per year, that is also politically impossible for either party.

      I think you ROW folks haven't been here long enough to understand how politics works in America.
      Jul 12
  • New l@st
    So are you saying country of birth trumps meritocracy? You would rather hire a candidate from RoW to improve 'diversity' over a better qualified candidate from China, India or Mexico?
    Jul 12 6
    • Amazon senat
      This bill doesn't create a merit system and will result in LESS merit.

      That's because about 60% of the India backlog are from consulting companies and are very poor quality.

      So those low quality applicants will get greencards while people with merit wait ten years.

      If it was a merit system it wouldn't be so unpopular.
      Jul 12
    • New l@st
      So you are saying the market is inefficient. We live in a free market society. If they are so bad, why not replace them with better ones!?
      Jul 12
    • New l@st
      Everyone is getting a fair shot post this bill. Lol. That's what 'removing' the cap means. Should I send you a dictionary?
      Jul 12
    • Amazon senat
      The immigration system isn't a "market", if it was (eg, if we selected people in order of comp) there wouldn't be a problem.

      I don't get your obsession with "fair", the immigration system isn't a human right, we are supposed to be getting the best people and we aren't. This bill will make it even worse, with lower quality people coming.

      I don't want to be "fair" to meritless people, I want to prioritize the best. Waiting longer doesn't have a damn thing to do with merit.
      Jul 12
    • New l@st
      So who gets to make the judgement on merit? The companies that make the hiring decisions operate in this free market. It's as fair as it gets. If these immigrants made it so far, they are qualified. Perhaps they do not meet you personal standards, and that's fine.
      Jul 12
  • Flagged by the community.

    • Flagged by the community.

    • Flagged by the community.

    • TripAdvisor whattheth
      Is flagging normal comment an Indian thing? Lol
      7d
  • GoDaddy ComeMommy
    Simply put, in the next a few years, only Indians will get GC
    Jul 12 5
    • eBay yejekr
      In other words people already waiting for 15 years and paid close to millions of taxes.
      Jul 12
    • Apple / Eng 🐒codemonk
      Well for employment-based GC they said so. People above said it would be fair since it’s due diligence to Indian applicants because they would receive GC later than those from ROW who applied the same time?
      Jul 12
    • eBay yejekr
      Do you have any concerns about the 1 MM green cards give away every year by government which will directly impact labor market of 95% percent of Americans?
      If so which one should stop first??
      Jul 12
    • GoDaddy ComeMommy
      Fair? Indians are not the only group paying taxes.
      Jul 12
    • I think I buy the tax argument. Rank the applicants by the total amount of taxes they have paid waiting. Remove country caps. Highest overall payers in the queue get GCs first. It helps companies like Google hurts staffing companies!
      Jul 14
  • Amazon senat
    If you want to oppose this bill you NEED to call your senator and complain

    Look at all the posts getting flagged, there is an organized cabal of bullies who want to silence the majority of people who oppose this.

    Over 60% of the backlog is consulting applicants who have little merit and should never have gotten into the US.

    It will create a ten year wait for everyone, and the backlog will only grow because it does nothing to limit the number of applicants or increase the number of visas, so before long it'll be a 100 year wait for everyone. It makes absolutelyno progress towards merit based immigration

    And here's the kicker: due to spillover, India is already getting around 46% of all the visas, far beyond their 17% of world population, and these are mostly low paid workers who undercut and lower local wages.
    Jul 12 4
    • eBay yejekr
      @OP Do you mind the merit of 1 millions green cards giving away that directly impacting labor market of Americans?
      Jul 12
    • Amazon senat
      I don't follow your question, if you're talking about family based immigration I'd like to see a greater focus on employment immigration but under no circumstances do I want to see us rewarding these abusive consulting companies.

      To move visas from family to employment we should have a merit system.
      Jul 12
    • eBay yejekr
      Corporations want to make more profits that’s why they bring consulting companies. Of course quality would be compromised for that. Talk to Bezos or other CEO regarding not bring outsourcing companies. Solve the root cause instead of band aiding it.
      Jul 12
    • Amazon senat
      That's a good reason to oppose it. We don't want that.
      Jul 12
  • Marvell harald
    I understand and empathize with folks saying diversity would be greatly affected..but current wait times to get GC for EB 2 Indian workers is > 100 years !! These guys and I don’t think majority of this category is low skilled, can forget about their GC’s ! This doesn’t make sense at all ...Clearly, the system is broken for high skilled Indian migrants, no matter how you spin it...is it fair to penalize them because of low skilled Indian migrants ? I don’t think so..All I can say is, INS/USCIS needs to have better filters at H1b granting time so that high skilled and low skilled categories are clearly separated...
    Jul 12 1
    • Netflix AQhA27
      Correct. Highly skilled Indians should be working to fix low skill migrant problem. Instead, they push for S386 which rewards those low skilled immigrant. If country of birth does not define merit, how does getting in line first defines it ? Do you choose first doctor that shows up in your in-network list or you check reviews and then select ? I am all for merit based immigration but not for this S386 crap.
      Jul 12
  • eBay yejekr
    @OP if your concern about GC merits check my reply.
    Jul 12 6
    • eBay yejekr
      Corporations want to make more profits that’s why they bring consulting companies. Of course quality would be compromised for that. Talk to Bezos or other CEO regarding not bring outsourcing companies. Solve the root cause instead of band aiding and blocking.
      Jul 12
    • Amazon senat
      Another good reason to oppose it
      Jul 12
    • eBay yejekr
      You want bring down amazon stocks down and cut corporate profits. Please do the needful.
      Jul 12
    • Amazon senat
      The low quality consulting people can't crack Amazon interview so no. Amazon will find it harder to hire if this bill passes, or we will have to lower our standards
      Jul 12
    • Ericsson MCDan
      @senat do you know Amazon supported this bill? What do you think all smart legal, HR didnt think about hiring problem before supporting it
      Jul 14
  • eBay engcgh
    I was just curious why OP guy is too much worried about it ? Do you already got your GC ?
    Let tell you a fact here.
    If you want to fix the GC give aways there are around 1 millions green card is giving away for people never paid taxes or social security and they get it for free.
    Back logged people are 15 years in the line and payed close to million dollar taxes and still waiting for the GC.
    While every year millions of people coming to USA and paying no taxes and get it for free.
    So what you think , you need to worry about ?
    Jul 12 0
  • Walmart.com 🌲50
    There are several points raised by opposers of this bill, but one point baffles me completely. Can someone explain to me how this bill is going to effect diversity in US?
    Jul 12 2
    • Google troll123
      I guess you meant "affect" Mr. Indian
      2d
    • Walmart 🌲50
      Yes sir, I indeed meant affect. Good to see that you are the custodian of the language of Great Britain. However I always have कुछ समझे to fall back to while you are stuck with the language of your colonial masters. How does that feel ? 😁
      2d
  • Synopsys iLikePussy
    Hi, could you please clarify the next points for me about the transition period (I didn't get the bill fully):
    1) in 2020, 15% of visa allocated to all ROW countries with approved i140, and 85% to China/India? Or 15% is allocated to each ROW country with approved i140? It makes a big difference because in the 2nd case, ROWs will wait 1 month, and in the 1st case- years
    2) No harm part, says: " no alien described in subparagraph (B) receives a visa later than the alien otherwise would have received said visa had this Act not been enacted." So, let's say smb from ROW (Egypt) get i140 approval on September 29, 2019. The HR1044 becomes a law on September 30 (a day after). Under 'no harm', the Egyptian should get his GC in October regardless what since 'if the law was not approved', he would get GC in new 2020 fiscal year.

    I read the law 5 times, and cannot interpret it with 100% assurance. Could you?
    Jul 13 1
    • Apple MClayton
      Your interpretation is correct. Anyone with an approved i140 before the bill passes will not see their wait times increase.
      Jul 13
  • Apple / Eng 🐒codemonk
    You are asking people to send you PDFs to answer your long questions
    Jul 12 0