What would a fair merit based system look like?

Amazon heyyeh
Feb 10 78 Comments

I think most points systems get "merit" very wrong and equate it to things that often signal a lack of merit.

Like they give points for master's without considering which school and wind up rewarding people who go to dodgy online schools to tick that box. When I'm reviewing resumes I consider such schools a NEGATIVE and discard the resume.

But there has to be a good way so let's brainstorm what real merit would look like.

I'll go first with she tenets:

1. Reputation matters a lot and any feature of a merit system should include a reputational element. Moreover reputation is best measured by surveys of industry professionals, not things like counting citations.

2. This applies to schools and also employers and also to individuals

3. Salary is a good measure but it has caveats and needs to be relative to job category and age as well as the reputation of the employer.

4. It's better to have done randomness the to have a complete stack rank, to reduce the incentive to game every last point. Being 2 point higher should give you a better chance, not shut out the lower point person

So with that here is a suggestion:

A. Instead of points you earn ballots in a lottery. Everyone gets 1 ballot for applying assuming they meets basic qualification. If in the lottery any one of your ballots is selected then you are accepted.

B. You get 1 extra ballot for every degree level you complete regardless of the reputation of your school so long as it's accredited

C. You get 1 extra ballot if it's a US school

D. You get 3 extra ballots for every degree completed at a school that is recognized as being to 25% world wide.

^ So up to 5 ballots per degree

E. You get 1 ballot for every 5 years experience you have in your field up to a maximum of 3 ballots.

F. You get 1 extra ballot for every 5 years US experience you have

G. You get 3 extra ballots for every high reputation employer you worked for, where you worked at least 2 years (top by reputation among industry pros)

H. You get 1 extra ballot for every 100k salary at your most recent employer, up to 3 ballots

I. You get 1 extra ballot pet 100k if that salary is US, up to 3

J. You get 3 extra ballots if that salary is in the top 25% of you labor category BY AGE, up to 9 ballots

K. You get 1 ballot for every letter of recommendation from an industry professional in your field, up to 3. Meaning a professor or manager in your industry

L. You get 1 extra ballot if that person is a US based professional

M. You get 3 extra ballots if that person is an employee of one of the previously identified to 25% schools or employers by reputation

N. Age discrimination: You lose 5 ballots for every 10 years of age over 20, is at 30, 40, 50, and 60.

O. Family discrimination: You get 1 extra ballot for every member of your immediate family who is under 30

P. US person discrimination: You get 1 extra ballots for each immediate family member who is a US citizen and 3 more if they are under 30.

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TOP 78 Comments
  • Oracle / R&D lHEA77
    tl;dr
    Feb 10 4
    • Glassdoor IPNO
      TLDR, op is an idiot and company where op works does not know how to root out idiots during interview, hence hiring op.
      Feb 10
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      ^ bully can't stand ideas he doesn't agree with. Fuck off.
      Feb 10
    • Glassdoor IPNO
      Idiot can’t think enough to imagine that it may not be a man commenting. Fuck off, close minded idiot.
      Feb 11
    • Intel HRC
      Do you even work? So much free time?
      Feb 11
  • Cisco / Eng OrdoAbChao
    should not be in a position of influence
    Feb 10 0
  • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
    How does one determine the top 25% schools in the world? What criteria do we use? What does it even mean to be a “top” school? (For me and most Americans, IITs are not top schools)

    What does a “high reputation” employer mean? Companies that pay top salaries? Or are we talking about ethics?

    How do we verify letter of recommendations? What does “industry professional” mean?

    Why get an extra ballot for each family member under 30? That has nothing to do with merit and unnecessarily incentivize larger families with younger children. As an American, I don’t want large families of some foreign culture suddenly take over my town.
    Feb 10 18
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      "Guarantee" is not the word you want. You want to talk statistics.
      Feb 11
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      It’s a hyperbole, of course we mean statistics. How do you respond to the rest?
      Feb 11
    • Microsoft Desitechie
      @Google
      I agree with population explosion.
      I dunt think there is anything defined as American culture. Besides, what could you do if your neighbors suddenly decide to start celebrating Muslim festivals?
      Feb 11
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      @Desi techie

      You can’t control your neighbor but you can control the fence between you and your neighbor.

      American culture is probably less defined than, say, Indian culture. That’s because American culture is much younger and borrows heavily from other European cultures (and in some parts of America, Mexican culture).

      But I think you are already familiar with some aspects of American culture. Let me ask you this: How would most white Americans react if there was suddenly a larger population of darker-skinned, high-earning immigrants moving into the country?
      Feb 11
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      American culture has nothing to do with race or religion, but it still exists and it's very evident to me when I meet someone who grew up here and "click" with a certain outlook and set of shared values, regardless of what religion or skin color.

      There's a huge cultural gap between Indians and Chinese who were born and raised in America versus their parents who immigrated. The American born Indians or Chinese have more in common with each other and with me than they do with Indians or Chinese from the old country, or than I do with people who grew up in my ancestors country.

      That gap between you and your American born kids is American culture.
      Feb 11
  • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
    You mention “fair” in the title yet you have discriminatory criteria like age in your post.
    Feb 10 21
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      It's not more work than to check current applications for fraud. Candidates already submitted their school and employment history. Now we are just seeing if it's on a list. How is that harder?

      You still have to go validate that they have that degree and experience. Looking up being on a list to see if it's a top institution adds no extra effort.

      And it requires ZERO money from taxpayers. USCIS is not funded by taxes, it's completely funded by the fees charged to applicants.

      As for your comments on population:

      This is a proposal to get better immigrants. No matter what quota you set you want the best. If you double or if your cut the number we take we want the best of those who apply.

      That said you are wrong about the population boom. Provided the people coming work and pay taxes actually do want a boom to offset the aging population.
      Feb 11
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      Why can’t you see that all your proposals will lead to more work? Do you think that immigration agents can magically verify all the extra information that you are proposing instantly? Fact-checking every application, every recommendation letter, employment history, education, counting ballots, etc to the level you propose WILL require more work and resources. The current system will need to be overhauled because when there is more information to be processed, there will be more verification that everything is still valid and legitimate.

      When there is more data to check, the larger “attack surface” that bad actors can use. There is no way around that. So we actually need to be MORE careful. The old system will be obsolete. Even if the all funding is from immigration fees, you still need to overhaul the system. That can take awhile and need careful planning.

      Please read my points again on the school ranking process. I feel that you are glossing over many of those details and not addressing them at all. I believe I’ve made myself clear that it is not simply checking one list.

      Why am I wrong on the population boom? Are you disagreeing that having more people somehow won’t need more food, water, housing, energy, etc?

      To be honest, I feel that we are going around in circles here. And that’s mostly because you keep coming back to your old arguments and never seem to completely address mine. You haven’t even answered most of my questions, like:

      “Where did you get the idea that the U.S. needs more immigrant children? Can you provide some data to back that up?”

      “Now you have dozens of lists that change rankings every year. Who maintains that list? How do we ensure it is always objective?”

      “Also, how would you reconcile ranking inconsistencies? What if one expert says one thing but other experts disagree. What if the experts agree on one thing but the general public says otherwise? How about trade schools like University of Phoenix that most people normally think is crap yet companies like Google and Facebook hire from?”

      If you can’t give me straight answers to the above, then I’ll simply disengage myself from your thread.
      Feb 12
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      You are missing the point that is entirely funded by fees and not taxes.

      You are also missing the point they they ALREADY check these things.

      You ALREADY have to give reference letters (employer), school history, employment history. They ALREADY check.

      What's the big deal looking to see if they school they were ALREADY checking is on a list.

      And anyway the applicant is paying. Not the taxpayer.

      The ranking is easy. Just go use an existing one of you like. Not hard. Seriously stop trying to make simple stuff did hard. It's not.

      And yeah I'm disagreeing with your crazy wrong mental model of the economy. More people PRODUCE more. Every employed person produces more than they consume.

      It's not zero sum. There's not only so much to go around. The more immigrants you bring in the more stuff everyone will have. So long ago they are working.

      I don't think you get economics.
      Feb 12
    • Google / Eng hooli.xyz
      And you are missing the simple fact that the things that are ALREADY getting checked is done under the PREVIOUS system, which was designed BEFORE your ballot counting processes.

      Old system != New system

      Doesn’t matter who is paying. Processes still need to be updated to accommodate your ballot counting and all the new criteria.

      Jesus Christ, are you being purposely dense? I am not making simple stuff hard because it is NOT.

      “What's the big deal looking to see if they school they were ALREADY checking is on a list.”

      Which list? Which one? There are literally dozens. You pick one (best engineering school), you’ll leave out the rest (best medical school, best law school, etc).

      You’re the one who doesn’t understand economics. You still haven’t answered my question challenging your claim that America needs more immigrant children.

      “It's not zero sum. There's not only so much to go around. The more immigrants you bring in the more stuff everyone will have. So long ago they are working”

      Ok, that’s the straw that broke the camel’s back. You’re not making any sense. Resources (food, water, land, housing, energy) IS finite. More people coming in doesn’t mean more stuff for everyone.

      This is not going anywhere so I’ll just leave you to your shitty thread. Good luck getting anyone else to engage with your delusional ideas. Goodbye.
      Feb 12
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      I'm saying degrees and employment are already checked as nothing I suggested required any additional check thereby refuting any claim that this is difficult.

      It's not hard to come up with a list of top schools, there are lots out there, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing on that.

      You are wrong that resources are finite. Take housing, more workers means more demand for housing and more jobs to build housing. So more houses well be built, actually creating jobs.

      If you don't get that point you know zero about economics.
      Feb 12
  • Facebook public2
    Yawn
    Feb 10 0
  • Zillow Group Sr. Troll
    Just leetcode bro
    Feb 10 0
  • Oscar 🐨koala
    You should run for Congress.
    Feb 10 0
  • Wayfair / Eng
    jwxs26

    Wayfair Eng

    PRE
    Microsoft
    jwxs26more
    Lol, sounds like a jealous Ivy Leaguer. Education and learning are not equivalent. Sorry.
    Feb 10 0
  • Tableau Zero Cool
    So you give more points to anything US based. Why is that fair?
    Feb 10 11
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      I think we give them visa to study hoping that they will decide to stay.
      Feb 10
    • Tableau Zero Cool
      No. Actually saying that you hope to stay is enough to get the visa revoked
      Feb 10
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      Are you intentionally missing the point? Step back. Reassess. You are focused on the wrong detail and being obtusely literal.

      You CAN say you intend to file for an h1b.
      Feb 10
    • Tableau Zero Cool
      F1 visa (for students) is not dual intent.
      Feb 10
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      You're allowed to file h1b on F1.
      Feb 10
  • New Egypt80
    Everything you describe is different US immigrant and non-immigrant visas.
    This discussion of merit based immigration will return a system not too far from this current one.
    Feb 10 2
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      There is no such thing as a "US immigrant", these will be foreigners who are already in the US or were on some previous visa and this is preferring to double down and continue supporting these existing immigrants over those who never had a US visa.

      I think that's sensible. The US bias is also less than the reputational bias. You would get 2 points for a second rate US school, 4 points for IIT, and 5 points for MIT.

      US experience increases the chances the person will succeed in the US. People with US school or work experience will have developed a network in the US and have a good idea how to operate in the US system.
      Feb 10
    • New Egypt80
      I meant us immigration system..
      Feb 19
  • New HBhogle
    Giving preference to High reputation employer kills smaller companies who want to hire these people because these talent will prefer high reputation employer. You try to draw conclusions from your perspective and forget there are so many other perspectives to look at it form and draw the spec.
    Feb 10 1
    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      That's a small price to pay to stop the abuse of the system.

      It doesn't "kill" them either. Of the points available only a small share are awarded for employment.

      But we all know in this industry that Facebook or Google on your resume counts for way more than some startup and this simply puts down on paper exactly what all of us really do think.
      Feb 10
  • Splunk wmpz
    Boring.
    Feb 10 0
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Amazon heyyeh
      OP
      If they were American they don't need a visa. It selects foreigners who were able to get into top US schools.

      Though it's not as strong as preference as you make it sound. You would get 5 ballots for MIT or 4 for IIT. That's a much stronger preference for top school worldwide and only a smaller preference for American school.

      The current system gives equal weight to University of Phoenix and Harvard, which is think is wrong. It also treats IIT as equivalent to Bangalore Upstairs Technology College (made up but you get the idea). I also think they'd wrong.

      It's: Stanford > IIT > Other US > Other foreign
      Feb 10
  • SendGrid girvssi
    ok there hitler
    Feb 10 0
  • Amazon heyyeh
    OP
    Here is another thing I think we should do: eliminate the h1 and l1 visa categories completely and roll those 185k visas into the greencard system.

    Aside from student visa and tourist visa if you come to the US to work you should always be on a path to citizenship in my opinion.

    Could tweak the greencard so that the EAD/AP phase gets extended to two years during which you have to stay with your sponsoring employer, and during which time you can decide where you like it here.

    But after that everyone shout just get a greencard.
    Feb 10 0
  • Bank of America Quackers
    Op from texas?
    Feb 10 0
  • New HBhogle
    OP discards resume from certain “NEGATIVE” universities and his ballot systems applies a lot to experienced people and forgets the young. He doesn’t like people with Masters. Hmm who did Canada butthurt with their points system. Developed countries do not want people who will retire any time soon. So the point systems in Canada is pretty much fair. The younger you are the longer you Ll pay income tax. This is why countries lean more towards young people.
    Shift your hate and frustration to something else buddy.
    Feb 10 0
  • Apple / Eng BangOver
    Your describing O-1 with ballots, which will add some over costs to the administration, so let’s keep it as O-1
    Feb 10 0
  • Microsoft Desitechie
    Points based on Leetcode?
    Feb 10 0
  • Microsoft gfba68
    What is the point of this? What are you trying to calculate merit for?
    Feb 10 0