Why folks at Facebook defend their company too much?

Amazon alcoholic
Jan 31 186 Comments

We all know Facebook is a cancer to society. They are just evil scumbag. They don't have any moral or ethical values. They just treat their customers are mere products. They don't see them as humans. For them we are just a piece of data.

Recently Apple revoked their enterprise certificate. If I comment anything in support of Apple bunch of FB employees come and bash me. I can't understand this. Just because you work for a company you don't need to support their evil things. Does Zuck give them any kind of additional bonus for defending the company ?

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TOP 186 Comments
  • Uber yTzY24
    Facebook is pretty innocuous compared to e.g. tobacco companies whose products literally do cause cancer, or PG&E who periodically incinerate folks’ houses.

    The defensiveness of FB employees seems proportional to the level of ludicrous hyperbole in posts such as yours.
    Jan 31 6
    • Microsoft CykaBlyat
      Oh look, Uber, the company that spies on its customers almost as much as FB
      Jan 31
    • Tobacco companies are pretty innocuous compared to BP and friends which are literally destroying the habitability of the planets for the next tens of thousands of years via the production of fossil fuels
      Jan 31
    • Compass / Eng
      FUPayMe

      Compass Eng

      PRE
      Google
      FUPayMemore
      Just because someone else is worse doesn’t mean you are good. Stop the whatablutism and aim to fix these problems.
      Jan 31
    • New truther
      pretty innocuous?! so affecting the lives of millions through data manipulation is no big deal? sure, its not as shocking and blunt as cancer but please do not downplay facebooks actions that affect us all in some form. We are talking about a company that has billions of users that can be mind controlled through a simple algorithm change.
      Jan 31
    • Oracle Kirby123
      Suicide rates for teen girls tripled as social media usage soared. Thanks, Cuckerberg!

      http://www.businessinsider.com/us-suicide-rate-increased-since-2000-2018-6
      Jan 31
  • Apple
    niXC18

    Apple

    BIO
    Hello, my name is
    niXC18more
    Nobody seems to see the value FB brings to the world. For starters, Facebook is enabling 80M small businesses feed themselves and hire more jobs due to more business that’s being driven through ads. WhatsApp is the only end-to-end encrypted messaging app that’s available on all platforms that developing countries are living on. Facebook is the only company that helps you stay in touch with and get updates on friends that you don’t see everyday but care about. I agree Facebook is not perfect and it makes mistakes but a privacy leak that exposes your cat photos is nowhere as serious as Equifax or Cathay Pacific leaking your SSN, credit history or passport info. No one seems to care about that!
    Jan 31 11
    • Apple
      niXC18

      Apple

      BIO
      Hello, my name is
      niXC18more
      @Apple Park: I agree with FB that this is clearly a dick move by Apple. They could’ve just blocked that research app or given a notice period for FB to fix their shit, but no, Apple had to waste half of FB’s and Google’s productivity.

      I agree that it was incompetency on FB’s for using the enterprise certificate for a fully legit and consented activity, but do you realize the gravity of Apple’s security blunders with the FaceTime and admin login bugs? The FaceTime bug gives complete remote access to somebody’s video chat and the other gives full root privileges to macs (which can contain billions worth of confidential data)
      Jan 31
    • Apple
      niXC18

      Apple

      BIO
      Hello, my name is
      niXC18more
      @FUPayMe: these things existed long before Facebook and exist on many other platforms. Craigslist has sex trafficking problems, Google search makes it insanely easy to find bad content.

      Problem is bad people find a way to use every tool maliciously. That does not mean Facebook is super evil and must die. In fact, Facebook has literally spent the last year doubling in size to build counter-systems most companies can’t even dream of. If this continues to happen at an uncontrolled rate even after a few years, users will automatically leave and Facebook will fizzle out.
      Jan 31
    • Apple / Eng Apple Park
      @niXC18 - This app wasn’t distributed through the App Store. How was Apple supposed to block a single enterprise app that never hits their platform without revoking the certificate?

      I’m just not sure how this is the same as a security bug or two. The problem was the public distribution of enterprise-signed “in-house” apps, which is a circumvention of the App Store process and a violation of the license they agreed to when the certificate is issued. That certificate is a signal of trust, which FB blatantly violated.

      But it certainly doesn’t help when they violated that trust with a shitty data mining app. 🙄
      Jan 31
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      @niXC18. You can't keep bug and international mining of kids data in same sentence. The two Apple bugs you mentioned, Apple did their best and handled the situations brilliantly. Bugs are a part of software life cycle.
      Jan 31
    • Apple
      niXC18

      Apple

      BIO
      Hello, my name is
      niXC18more
      @alcoholic: if you have to build apps for the next generation of people, you have to learn about them and you do that by conducting user-studies. Using a certificate outside of policy without checking with legal or reading the fine print due to ignorance is a bug/complacency, even if not a software bug. This is where FB made a mistake.
      Jan 31
  • Compass / Eng
    FUPayMe

    Compass Eng

    PRE
    Google
    FUPayMemore
    Stockholm syndrome
    Jan 31 0
  • Facebook XDPH45123
    We defend the company because employees are treated like human beings and because the platform has done a lot of good. See giving tuesday as one small example. The better question is why aren’t more amazon, Microsoft, intuit, compass company employees proud of where they work and why do so many of them attack other companies out of insecurity? And why do they apply in mass to Facebook?
    Jan 31 5
    • Facebook ecWQ72
      Exactly. If the company treats you well, you will be much more likely to defend them.

      If your company overworks you and only gives you bananas or asks you to vote with your feet, of course you are not only not going to defend it but join in the bashing.
      Jan 31
    • New @(^_^)@
      Ok, giving Tuesday is fantastic. Do you just bury your head in the sand with respect to pretty much everything else your company does?

      See, from an outsiders perspective Facebook does a lot of horrible shit. Not trying to troll, just being honest.
      Jan 31
    • Amazon spdnv
      I don’t like Amazon’s lack of values, arrogant CEO or lack of true philanthropy and don’t defend them. That said, I’d love to work at FB and yet, I know they do not care about privacy and Sandberg/Zuck are not nearly as awesome as people think. Does that make FB employees feel better that I not only am not defending my company and I want to work at yours but also know it’s shady?

      I’d check my soul at the door 5 days a week to make mine and get out of the game. Is what it is.
      Jan 31
    • Microsoft / Eng MissingNo.
      Who needs values or ethics when you have free food
      Feb 1
  • Facebook XDPH45123
    OP’s name checks out
    Jan 31 8
    • Facebook public2
      Research is not something you generally need to defend, especially with clear (and where needed parental consent).How do you defend any company who doesn't work to understand and better serve their constituents? Do you want google or msft or amazon to defend themselves for doing the exact same thing? How about the publicly traded companies who do nothing but panel research? Googles research app was also banned by apple the same day, for the same thing, but the press put their focus on fb obviously. I'm sorry you think fb is a problem and doesn't care about privacy. Companies like fb and google wouldn't make any money if they didn't care about privacy so even if you think tech lacks any morality at all at least know that the business would fail if either company actually sold data. You may not trust tech but most people can at least trust that a business wants to stay in business.
      Jan 31
    • Facebook / Other
      XKLa50

      Facebook Other

      BIO
      Data scientist
      XKLa50more
      Compass, all the FAANG companies are problematic in some way or another. I'm here to do interesting work and provide for my family - I prioritize this over posturing since I am not a white liberal. Also, as long as I have this job, the right thing to do is to give it 100%, which I do.
      Feb 1
    • Facebook / Other
      XKLa50

      Facebook Other

      BIO
      Data scientist
      XKLa50more
      Public2, I understand the impulse to defend the company, but our sense of right and wrong shouldn't be colored by what pays our paycheck. The Onavo business, for example, didn't sit well with me.
      Feb 1
    • Compass / Eng
      FUPayMe

      Compass Eng

      PRE
      Google
      FUPayMemore
      Please explain how compass is problematic.
      Feb 1
    • Facebook public2
      Not sure I was defensive? I was pointing out there is no need to be defensive.
      Feb 1
  • Apple HumanDoing
    It’s not about the money/stock price. It’s about the blatant invasion of privacy and psychological damage (both mostly unbeknownst to its users) which is what makes it so deplorable.
    Feb 1 51
    • Facebook hUoT40
      Humandoin, I’m genuinely concerned about you. You’re all over the place buddy
      Feb 1
    • Apple HumanDoing
      It’s *indirectly* selling data. Quit dodging the principle. That’s all you’ve done here today. You bob and weave often.
      Feb 1
    • Apple HumanDoing
      hUoT40 get back in your playpen the adults are talking
      Feb 1
    • Facebook dollahbill
      I fundamentally disagree with you that it’s the same principle and so do hundreds of millions of Facebook users who would quit the site if we actually sold information instead of ad targeting.
      Feb 1
    • Facebook dollahbill
      And it’s worth noting Apple did the exact same fucking thing with iAd. You collected user data and used it to target ads. Well, not the same thing because you sucked at it and shut it down, but the same principle.
      Feb 1
  • Cult mentality
    Jan 31 5
    • Facebook XDPH45123
      It’s called company pride. If you worked for a top place to work, you would know what it is.
      Jan 31
    • Dude PlayStation is waaay cooler than FB. Come on even you can’t argue that. Equal brand recognition also, maybe even more so overseas.
      Jan 31
    • Facebook XDPH45123
      Only dude
      Jan 31
    • Puppet pqXV61
      working at fb being a point of pride for someone is a huge red flag tbh
      Jan 31
    • Microsoft / Eng MissingNo.
      Jerking off to a picture of Mark Zuckerberg every day to demonstrate my pride
      Feb 1
  • Facebook / Eng
    fb2017

    Facebook Eng

    PRE
    Google, Oracle
    BIO
    worked at Oracle, then Google, now Facebook.
    fb2017more
    As long as I get paid double as you, who cares.
    Jan 31 11
    • Handing out jailbroken iPhones isn’t illegal.
      Jan 31
    • Apple
      niXC18

      Apple

      BIO
      Hello, my name is
      niXC18more
      Fine, definitely more shady then.
      Jan 31
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      @niXC18 I'll make you some points clear. Facebook released that VPN app previously in App store. Then Apple called Facebook to remove the app because it collects data even when you don't use your facebook app. Then only Facebook began to distribute using enterprise certificate. And we all know what happened after.

      Now tell me why they are desperatly after user data this much. Isn't it morally wrong? And still they have not removed the VPN in Play Store.

      https://arstechnica.com/civis/ucp.php?mode=login&return_to=%2Ftech-policy%2F2018%2F08%2Ffacebook-violates-apples-data-gathering-rules-pulls-vpn-from-app-store%2F
      Jan 31
    • Apple
      niXC18

      Apple

      BIO
      Hello, my name is
      niXC18more
      @alcoholic: please read some other articles for a clear timeline. The research app has been released off-app store since 2016, long before the VPN app Onavo was asked to be removed from the App Store.

      They have not removed it from the Play Store since Google is still ok with it as it sees nothing wrong with users choosing to download and use it.
      Jan 31
    • Microsoft / Eng MissingNo.
      This is the only honest answer. Everyone else is doing mental gymnastics.
      Feb 1
  • Amazon alcoholic
    OP
    So you guys don't care about ethics? I think you guys care just about money. Money is not always important. Someday you guys will realize. Really Facebook guys are arrogant and care only about TC.
    Jan 31 6
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      Lol. Facebook talking about fake news media.
      Jan 31
    • Apple / Eng Apple Park
      😂 Oh, you care about the fake news media, FB. You’re being continually roasted over it! Someday you will realize...
      Jan 31
    • Apple hMWF54
      Ethics in corporate America??? That’s new
      Jan 31
    • Facebook / Eng
      fb2017

      Facebook Eng

      PRE
      Google, Oracle
      BIO
      worked at Oracle, then Google, now Facebook.
      fb2017more
      Facebook is just a platform where anyone can post news or opinions. The fake news media are different. They intentionally twist facts and report fake news.
      Jan 31
    • Apple / Eng Apple Park
      Wait. So let me guess - the only fake news is negative news about FB.

      Keep going, this is rich... 😆
      Jan 31
  • Qualtrics / Eng codetastic
    As usual, The Onion puts it best: “Facebook Employees Explain Daily Struggle Of Trying To Care About Company's Unethical Practices When Gig So Cushy”

    https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig
    Jan 31 0
  • Facebook dollahbill
    It’s because FB is pretty transparent internally, so we often see bullshit stories about FB for what they are. A lot of what I read in the news about FB doesn’t reflect what I see every day at work. I’m not talking about internal propaganda from leadership, I’m talking about engineering initiatives I actually see happening.
    Jan 31 9
    • Apple / Eng Apple Park
      That’s the best you’ve got? Your iPhone 3G is slow in 2019? 🙄
      Jan 31
    • Uber yTzY24
      Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?
      Jan 31
    • Facebook dollahbill
      I think there is a way to collect anonymized data from teens phones that is moral. It would, at a minimum, involve compensation, a knowledge of what is being collected and by whom, and parental consent. I have no first-hand knowledge of this particular project so I can’t really speak to it. I do have first-hand knowledge of our engineering work on other issues mentioned in comments in this post (e.g. child porn detection) and I’ve lost faith in the media to report accurately on FB due to stories covering issues I do know about. And that skepticism doesn’t end at stories about FB. I’m not labeling everything fake news, but do take everything with a grain of salt and try to figure out what the reporter isn’t telling you.
      Jan 31
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      @dollahbill. I'll make you some points clear. Facebook released that VPN app previously in App store. Then Apple called Facebook to remove the app because it collects data even when you don't use your facebook app. Then only Facebook began to distribute using enterprise certificate. And we all know what happened after.

      Now tell me why they are desperatly after user data this much. Isn't it morally wrong? And still they have not removed the VPN in Play Store.

      https://arstechnica.com/civis/ucp.php?mode=login&return_to=%2Ftech-policy%2F2018%2F08%2Ffacebook-violates-apples-data-gathering-rules-pulls-vpn-from-app-store%2F
      Jan 31
    • Facebook dollahbill
      I’m not taking a position on whether we violated the tos but I definitely don’t derive morality from apple’s tos. There are plenty of moral things that apple doesn’t allow in their store.
      Feb 1
  • They are masters of manipulating the dialogue of social networks. Maybe it’s their HR and they created a bunch of company accounts via an unlimited supply of email addresses. Any actor, fuck even the poor nation of Russia, can create an effective online narrative. Because it only takes a team of a few dozen working full time.
    Jan 31 0
  • Facebook hUoT40
    It honestly is interesting that no FB employee ever really starts a thread attacking others. Maybe it’s because we haven’t lowered the bar or have a low bar like others. We’re not as insecure - no reason to be. If you’re lucky enough to get an on-site here, you can find out for yourself.

    The only way I will leave Facebook is if we start attracting lower talent. Every single day we have people from google (I’m xoogler), Netflix, and ironically enough apple clamoring and applying to get in. Facebook is filled with smart people who went to top schools (Stanford, Princeton, MIT, Harvard, etc etc) and are genuinely awesome people. My coworkers make and break this place. We’re smart enough to make decisions for ourselves and have better options than to stay here if we felt we were being brainwashed. We spent so much money on abuse prevention last year to the detriment of stock - and yet attrition was a record low. It is because we see internally the actions being taken. Of course, being happy at your work this is going to breed jealously by others outside. If you think all of us are easily brainwashed, think again. We have the ability to ask management tough questions every week and we do - how many times do you meet with your ceo?

    OP is breathing heavily trying to incite an angry response but can’t even get his timelines right, let alone be coherent. As others have stated, this enterprise app study has been going on since 2016 as was google’s.

    For the hate on here, users don’t view the platform in the same way as others. If you would have believed blind posters from other companies, you would have thought the stock was at $0 and we lost all users already.

    https://slate.com/technology/2019/01/facebook-research-vpn-app-teens-paid-data-collection-project-atlas.html

    But of course the above article is not mainstream because it doesn’t fit the narrative
    Feb 1 9
    • Facebook hUoT40
      You can’t even get the timeline right, give it a rest
      Feb 1
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      The timeline is irrelevant here. I need a binary answer.

      Don't you think it is morally wrong to harvest data of kids? Forget about Apple TOS.
      Feb 1
    • Amazon you do you
      https://youtu.be/xAshhlhlAbU

      Top job over there
      Feb 1
    • Amazon you do you
      Super high bar
      Feb 1
    • Apple
      niXC18

      Apple

      BIO
      Hello, my name is
      niXC18more
      @alcoholic If Amazon wants to adapt Alexa to work well for kids and wants to understand what kids like and don’t (example: games, movies etc), they have to do some research since adults can’t magically tell wat most kids like. Same goes for Facebook. If Facebook wants to make safer products for kids like Messenger Kids, FB needs to understand what they like and dislike. If understanding what kids need and like is morally wrong, are all toy companies doing morally wrong stuff?
      Feb 3
  • Google lbrtyblle
    I think that behavior is rampant across Blind, whether people are defending their company, or lifestyle, or values they don't want to grapple with the fact that their situation is anything but noble
    Jan 31 3
    • I point out the limits of my company when I see it’s fit. It’s healthy to have as objective of perspectives as you can. You drink the koolaid too much, and you might harm yourself (e.g., have a bunch of company stock, view things through the rose colored glasses, company stock rapidly declines, you end up a bagholder)
      Jan 31
    • Apple oMIK41
      One word: Sandberg
      Jan 31
    • Amazon dock this
      Intuit, watch Adam ruins the economy
      Jan 31
  • AMD / R&D bimbilika
    I think a lot of the Facebook hate has motivations elsewhere... In many cases it almost feels like the knife maker is jailed because someone use a knife he sold to do a murder...
    Jan 31 2
    • Facebook makes terrible decisions often and handles the fall out poorly over and over. At some point you have to point a finger at the culture.
      Jan 31
    • AMD / R&D bimbilika
      I completely agree with "handle the fallout" part. But being a multi billion dollar company, its the only way to handle without burning shareholder money - hide, deny, delay, mild admission in the end if nothing works.
      Jan 31
  • Apple hMWF54
    I am not on Facebook but your post is naive at the best, particularly coming from Amazon.

    The new currency is user data and most companies, FB, Google, Amazon live on that. But then look at insurance and banking companies and you will have the same behavior.

    Do the question is, why there is no serious privacy legislation?

    Well the answer is simple and clear, just watch the government investigations. A total joke.
    Jan 31 3
    • New @(^_^)@
      Someone that works at Amazon can't have an opinion on Facebook?
      Jan 31
    • Apple hMWF54
      I did not say they can’t have an opinion, I stated the opinion was naive
      Jan 31
    • Dropbox / Eng 100k🔗🐼
      User data is the new currency, yes, but I swear Facebook mines it and distributes this data in a shady way. I know Google and Amazon collects my user data to improve their products (ads for websites and ads to improve sales). For Facebook, the use case and purpose behind the data collection is not very clear and there is no transparency externally. Let’s start with the fact that Facebook is an ad selling company but no one at Facebook will admit that’s what keeps FB running. They always feed you some sunshine and rainbow BS about connecting people together and making the world a better place. You know that’s not the true purpose of FB because the ads are so invasive and aggressive now and the “connecting people” part is depression inducing at best because of how toxic and fake social media is. If FB were honest about its users being the product then maybe people would trust them more but they keep on trying to brush it under the rug and make it seem like they care about users when they really don’t. All the new features FB has only exist to keep people addicted so FB can profit more off of them. An engineer working on such a feature might feel like he’s making impact and making the world a better place but you have to look at the whole forest instead of the trees.
      Feb 1
  • Oracle while(1);
    Op Does Amazon have moral or ethical value? Why do employees work there.
    Jan 31 3
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      But I don't always defend Amazon. The point here is bunch of Facebook employees defended Facebook when Apple revoked their certificate. Also they defended for an app that collects data of kids. I will definitely not defend Amazon if Amazon does something like this.
      Jan 31
    • Amazon alcoholic
      OP
      Additional note. That VPN app is still available in Play Store. That shows how much Facebook values privacy.
      Jan 31
    • Dropbox / Eng 100k🔗🐼
      Amazon at least has a great public image as a retailer and cloud provider and treats its product users/customers like gold. Facebook still denies to this day their product users are actually their money generating hamsters and has been treating them like crap. Amazon employees are replaceable and they are getting paid at least but idk about the fb user-base. I think they are probably worried about user retention at this point. All these privacy and trust concerns from their users and FB still won’t take responsibility or even admit it’s a problem. They still ignore the elephant in the room and say it’s all fake news, just shut up and keep on running on the hamster wheel don’t worry about what goes behind the scenes.
      Feb 1
  • Procore oxlkspi
    I mean if someone admits Facebook is terrible, then by their own lights they’re kinda terrible for helping it unless they can’t leave for some reason. But programmers can jump from Facebook to other bigtech pretty easily, so the “gotta pay bills” excuse doesn’t hold water.

    People will do a lot of mental gymnastics when their self-image is on the line
    Jan 31 1
  • LinkedIn
    !_9)5?11'|

    LinkedIn

    PRE
    Amazon, Google
    !_9)5?11'|more
    So think about this. You go to a person who is seemingly different from you. Instead of a positive thing like a "hi" you start with an attack and a generalization. This person who is already stressed out and/or possibly a victim of circumstance has two options. 1. Validate your attack or 2. Fight back. What do you think this person is going to do when cornered?
    Jan 31 1
    • Apple HumanDoing
      Cornered? This is the internet. Close the browser.
      Feb 1
  • Puppet pqXV61
    they don't want to feel bad about having sold their souls for tc
    Jan 31 1
    • Facebook / Eng
      Ô ptimist

      Facebook Eng

      PRE
      Facebook
      Ô ptimistmore
      Tc or gtfo!
      Jan 31