That’s not the complete picture.
I heard from Chinese co-workers that a lot of them want to go back to China in a few years after gaining the work experience here. But from what I read, you can get arrested for saying wrong thing in China. The food safety is so horrible that Chinese have to travel oversea to buy infant forumla. The air pollution there makes people wear mask everyday. The WLB in Chinese tech companies are non-existent.
Why would any Chinese want to go back to China to torture thenselves and not enjoy the high paying job and the fresh air in the US? The shorter and shorter Chinese citizen green card backlog also suggests Chinese are not staying in the US. Anyone can explain the paradox?
- Amazon BfRx68Also, it’s easy to make it look like a bad decision when you focus on the worst aspects of a country. I could ask why anyone would want to stay here in a country that looks down on immigrants, has a racist attitude towards minority groups, where people can go around buying guns and killing people, etc.
That’s not the complete picture.
- Please read my comment and at least try to understand the point I am trying to make. I am not comparing US with the world but pointing out that it is not perfect and if you focus on the worst aspects, it is not appealing. Also, with regards to racism in India, there is racism but not against Indians. Likewise, I doubt Chinese are racist against other Chinese.
- I'm using the word racism to mean ethnic bigotry.
- Microsoft BiggieMacIt’s mostly because their family is there but also because they are sick of the visa bs they have to go through.
- Junior level dev pay in China is still relatively low compared to US(but still higher than most countries), but mid-senior level positions are paid a premium in China, especially when you have overseas experience you will be upleveled(upwards of $700k in case of Alibaba for senior level ).
Also startups are booming in China, case in point, bytedance valuation shot up 150x in 4 years, that company alone is minting several thousands millionaires in USD.
The combination of both factors is why most Chinese students tend to work in US for a while first, usually 3-4 years until they get their green card, before considering going back. Just in case it doesn’t work out in China, they have the green card to fall back and return to US.
Source: Chinese myself, leaving for China soon
- If i were you, I wouldn’t hold my hope high for positions focusing on domestic market. When Uber was fighting didi in China, our PMs(mostly native Chinese with oversea backgound) are visibly weaker.
As a product leader, it’s more about culture than language, do you understand the culture of your customer base? Do you know what Chinese customers wants/spends their time and money on/their slangs and memes/what’s trending?/subtle Chinese culture elements that’s impacting UI and UX, etc etc.
One silver lining though: You will be more valuable to Chinese companies that hope to explore oversea markets instead of domestic ones, e.g. tiktokFeb 103
- No if it’s the same level, e.g L4 to L4 comparison. However, Chinese expats are usually leveled up at least 2 levels when they return to China, so the deal is much sweeter.
Also remember tiktok parent company, bytedance valuation shot up 150x in 4 years, a lowly fresh grad in China who joined 4 years ago definitely earns way more than you do right now.
- That’s true, the 996 work culture is the probably the biggest reason for most Chinese people who choose to stay in the US.
Not arguing that, but I am just a single guy who doesn’t bother so much about WLB. I may move back to US after a few years when I have family since I’ve already had green card.
- Microsoft / EngutWg87I think it's mainly the cultural difference. Living in the US can feel quite lonely, esp if you're used to the super densely populated cities of China
- The china tech bubble in the last a few years really made some engineer think they are going to make more money by going back to China. But the party is almost over now, some people haven't realized that though.
- You go there for the culture mostly. If there’s no war, no tyranny (the western media has exaggerated issue way to far), and no natural disaster, you want to go back to where your cultures are. At least that’s what the Chinese tradition is. Also, the Chinese tech has been doing pretty good and in some cases dwarfed American tech due to scale and competition, I think even for personal skill set growth, if you can tolerate working 996 (which most Chinese can anyways), there shouldn’t be a second thought.
- Living in Bay Area, or high COL places may make people associate everything with money because that's what's on top of everyone's mind, but in reality, there's much more than just money. Using that desire pyramid (or formally, Maslow's hierarchy of needs), Safety is like the 2nd level from the bottom. Next level is love & belonging. Most Chinese people don't feel like they belong here in U.S.. Lack of Chinese food, lack of pretty Chinese girls / guys, lack of relatives, lack of friends they grew up with, lack of people who they can speak their native language to, feeling helpless when grandma grandpas back in China are in their senior year that needs care and much more.
W.r.t. 996, most people learn on the job, not saying there aren't that many self-motivated people who spend weekend and evening studying, but it's not comparable to having the pressure of being out of business / out of job (if you can't scale and diversify fast enough than your competitors) behind your back and forces you to learn and grow. The pace of competition in China is at an order of magnitude higher than U.S.
- Most people I know that are from China try very hard to stay here. I’ve noticed that the ones who were open minded about knowing what’s wrong with China tend to stay, and the others who’d rather turn a blind eye to the issues rather go back because of familiarity. (I am chinese)
- It’s also the glass ceiling here. And Indian managers. Chinese is having a hard time moving up the career ladder. They see average/incompetent Indian peers moving up and become their managers. Back in China, they move up rather quickly. No brainer
- Apple apbobSomeone mentioned that the housing prices in the major China cities is Bay Area prices - is that true? I never thought it would be inexpensive to live there and I figured the sky was the limit for the rich Chinese, but for normal tech dorks is it really San Francisco pricing for the same level of lifestyle?
- Google / EngSexyVirginNot everyone is interested in assimilating to the American culture. Asian food is much better in China.
All the major Chinatowns in the US I've been to are full of old people and look like they are stuck in the 80s. Its much more fun to for young Chinese people to live in China. The dating scene there is much better too.
- Many go back to start a business. Many also go back when they’re here for a period of time and can’t find a wife. When you go back you are a hot commodity.
- New pyvtekA lot of it is over exaggerated western propaganda. I've asked my Chinese friends about all this and it's not nearly that bad.
- Check China air quality index at www.aqicn.org , half of the country is at the same level or better than nearby countries like Korea,Japan, Thailand and India is way worse.
The quality is also improving year over year, Beijing in particular has improved tremendously in last few years.