Why women don’t code

Microsoft ThisOrThat
Jun 26, 2018 55 Comments

https://quillette.com/2018/06/19/why-women-dont-code/

The guy is a principal lecturer who has worked to close the gender gap

Hopefully people will read this article without knee jerk reactions and losing their shit

But I know it’s too much to ask

Edit: and I hope idiots don’t conflate this to women can’t code.

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TOP 55 Comments
  • Microsoft
    Tangos

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    Tangosmore
    Who is this article targeted to? At the end he talks about worrying there are negative stories about men in tech, men feeling guilty for other men’s sins, and men feeling awkward around women. That says everything you need to know about the article. Who are these men? No one I know. This article is for men who aren’t very stable in their identify and who are blind to the sexism problem in tech.

    If you really don’t see the discrimination, and you really think we’ll never improve our gender balance then the very least you can do is get back to work, stop obsessing about something that “doesn’t exist”, and let the Diversity folks figure this out for themselves.

    Just the fact that he wants women to be quiet about equality and equity tells everyone what kind of person he is. Bummer to see this meandering and petty piece coming from a UW lecturer.
    Jun 26, 2018 11
    • Microsoft JDwb49
      Can you just stop forcing women to fulfil your "tech girl" fetish fantasies and let them do what they want?
      Not everyone want to spend their time working with inanimate dead stuff. Let them be.
      Stop shaming women for persuing their passion instead of tech.
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Microsoft
      F27D

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      F27Dmore
      Except... this may be stereotyping but I have read it’s typically more women on the teams heading these gender D&I efforts. It’s something that clearly many women want. Also, women in other fields don’t care about our MS diversity efforts so you don’t have worry they are “shamed” by our attempt to give them access to opportunities.

      And MS doesn’t just work on hiring more women, it starts earlier. There are programs for girls from grade school to college to go to camps, take courses, and work on CS projects at younger ages. These programs are extremely new (10-15 years at most). There hasn’t been enough time to say these efforts don’t work to engage women in CS. Recovery from systemic prejudice takes decades.

      I really don’t mean this sarcastically, but I grew up in the 80s/90s in the US. This type of segregation of genders and push back against equality seems so antiquated and bizarre compared to how I grew up. I don’t see women and men as so different as colleagues and friends. Don’t you all have women friends, wives, girlfriends? Don’t you want them to have access to tech jobs? Doesn’t that benefit you as well? Real question because I don’t get it. I’m really confused by younger millennial men who grew up alongside women still talking about women like they are alien beings.

      Does being in your 20s today mean you honestly don’t understand how recent equality efforts are? Don’t you know the history of oppression of women enough to see how embarrassing it is to be a man claiming oppression or wanting to stop diversity efforts so soon after they gain traction? It seems you want to throw out all of the work us gen x and baby boomers did to improve gender relations, why?
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Microsoft sgrQ26
      I would LOVE for my wife and/or daughter to write software. We'd have tons more money and my daughter would be guaranteed a good paying job. I've tried numerous times and they simply aren't interested. My wife gasps and says it is soooo boring. Same with my daughter. I've tried many different angles to spark their interest and it just isn't there. No discrimination, no lack of opportunity, and yet zero interest.
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Microsoft
      F27D

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      F27Dmore
      Well, it’s not insane to expect a 50/50 split once girls are socially rewarded for their interest in tech like boys are. If girls were valued as being “builders” and “innovators” in society instead of people expecting them NOT to care then girls would internalize those social expectations. Once more girls get rewarded and acknowledged instead of ostracized for their interest, enough will join up so they aren’t lonely in teams and classrooms.

      I don’t know the literature on gender D&I but I’m guessing that if in your homes you create the expectation that your daughters be “builders” and not just “talkers” then they will grow in that direction. And you might have to provide your daughter with tech summer camp experiences where she can meet other girls. That’s what we did.

      What if a 50/50 is possible but you’re slowing down society’s progress by expecting girls to not thrive, to get bored, and to be lonely? Why be that guy discouraging kids and alienating women when you could be focusing on your own performance and having faith that women deserve to be here and can work to bring other women here too. For me it’s about choosing ownership of my own work and helping others succeed - not expecting them to fail.
      Jun 28, 2018
    • Microsoft
      F27D

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      F27Dmore
      Assumptions inform observations and influence behaviors. If everyone stopped assuming women weren’t interested in “building” then they would surprise you with what they would build. But it doesn’t matter what you and I think, it’s already happening. Women are working in tech in higher numbers and the %s will increase as the collective efforts of D&I programs, over a generation, take effect.

      Mostly I’m stunned that so many of want to defend the work of a man whose own coworkers say represents “opinions, weakly supported by cherry-picked, misinterpreted scientific studies” which are “not a good representation of the caliber of expertise at the university”. Literally no one at the UW has backed his science and dozens are saying his data analysis and insight skills are lacking.
      Jun 30, 2018
  • OpenTable Meliodas
    The good lecturer’s bias was apparent. His baseless assertion that LGBTQ people don’t face discrimination in the field didn’t help his credibility. He interchanged sex and gender when his points wouldn’t survive an independent analysis. And, he avoided any analysis of sexism in the field and its impact on the number of women in the field.
    Jun 26, 2018 9
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      To quote
      “By contrast, working with the LGBTQ community is important because of the historical oppression they have experienced even though there is no evidence that LGBTQ individuals are currently discriminated against in the field.”

      He acknowledges their oppression and sites currently there is no evidence that there is any discrimination?

      I am guessing you have such evidence. Can you share it?
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft
      F27D

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      F27Dmore
      OP, If you really want to see academic evidence of work discrimination against LGBTQ community members, as a MS employee you have free access to academic journals where you can do a search. You don’t see what you don’t look for.

      When you ask other people to do research for your non-opinion-based questions, you show a lack of ownership of your own point of view. Clearly you and Reges both don’t want to know about systemic discrimination. Why?
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      Don’t change the goal post
      He clearly mentioned LGBTQ discrimination in tech

      Now present your evidence. That academic couldn’t find any. I’ll take his word over an anonymous person on blind.

      You are free to change my mind by providing evidence that LGBTQ folk are discriminated against in tech

      If not you have lost this argument
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      Good source
      See I am reasonable
      Jun 27, 2018
  • Google / Eng dammit
    This is stupid. In the third world plenty of women want to code. Math majors and Cs majors are full of women too.
    Jun 26, 2018 5
    • Microsoft mstomania
      Lots of American women are spoiled. They complain math is too hard and choose to study easier liberal arts majors instead.
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft ~/.ssh
      Economic incentives differ in importance in third world countries - and there is less opportunity for certain fields. Some of the data that he presented would seem to indicate that this outcome is likely.

      All else being equal, men and women seem to have differing trends in interests - the question becomes how different and is that the most beneficial balance for society.
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Oracle / Other nogo
      ^^ or it's social conditioning?
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      Nope even in the more egalitarian societies like Scandinavian countries it’s the similar ratio
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft JDwb49
      @dammit Have you tried to read the article? It states the exact same thing.
      In countries that struggle economically, people are forced to survive by doing the jobs that bring most money. They my hate the job, but no one cares of their opinion.

      On the other hand, when people can choose the job they like, not necessarily the highest paying job, they do just so.

      Many people do not want to do anything with tech. If you allow women to go elsewhere, that's what they're going to do.
      Jun 27, 2018
  • Microsoft UMbR31
    I'm genuinely impressed it's been 50 minutes and OP's not gotten banned yet
    Jun 26, 2018 1
    • Facebook AsEB37
      So true. I posted an informative video from the HEAD OF American college of Pediatrics about how transgenderism agenda in schools is damaging children, and got banned for it! What’s hateful in an honest discussion?

      https://youtu.be/s57T27M1ZXk (watch very carefully and please share with liberal friends- she scientifically debunks the talking points of the arrogant SJWs)
      Jun 27, 2018
  • Cisco / Eng yohellow
    They do code!
    Jun 26, 2018 4
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      Sigh 😔
      Please read the article
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft Pediasure
      Entitled woman alert
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft JDwb49
      @yohellow They can code. But you cannot read.
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Facebook AsEB37
      Of course women can and do code, some better than many men! The truth that the article points out is that it’s not an identical distribution.

      If you plot coding-ability on x-axis and number of people on y-axis, you’ll see that the distribution of men is flatter than women. I.e. there are more incompetent men at the lower end of the distribution AND there are more competent men at the higher end of the distribution. Most women would be clustered closer to the mean rather than the extremes. To ignore this is to live in denial of reality. We all know this to be empirically true from our daily lives, in various ways. This distribution difference occurs across the big 5 personality traits. Another example is aggression and disagreeableness where again there’s this flatness of distribution. For example this is partly why there are so many more men in prison. Do want to equalize that? 50-50? What happened- Not a noble effort anymore?
      Jun 27, 2018
  • Credit Karma EllisDee25
    This was poorly written (get to the damn point! half of it was just defensiveness and baseless speculation) and also poorly thought out.

    “Here’s imperial evidence that less women go into these departments. Why? Something innate about interest level I guess but it doesn’t have to be biological.”

    Basically just a justification of the status quo in reasonable sounding language. The author seems to assume “level of interest” is a fixed factor with no social, economic, or political context.

    There is statistically an “interest level” divide that happens with women and lower-income students during middle school and early high school. I’ve read for poor students, that this is a rational reaction to gaining more social awareness and seeing that their likely prospects don’t include a need for higher math.

    So for an “equality agenda” these social factors have to be considered - as opposed to the author’s view that “interest” just grows in a social vacuum so all we need to do is treat the small percentage of self-selecting women (or low-income students) fairly.
    Jun 27, 2018 5
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      Lol what about Scandinavian countries
      https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/553592/

      Your whole theory about socioeconomic factors are blown out of water by more egalitarian societies and fewer STEM women student. But don’t let that stop you blaming the male patriarchy
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      This article argues that social-economic factors do matter as to why women in some countries do go into these fields, but then doesn’t go into socioeconomic factors for Scandinavia other than to claim the assumption it’s more egalitarian so women choose not to — but why not? There’s no explanation.

      Could someone get away with a business explanation like that? “People just like that app more than this app. Just preference, I guess - lots of choices out there.”
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      And your contention is that ...... ?
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      ....Is that the article never explained the “why” of the title and just said it doesn’t necessarily have to do with biology. I skimmed, so maybe I missed it?
      Jun 29, 2018
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      So if the answer to “why women don’t code” is “preference” — then why this preference? Biology, socially constructed, or... or fate/magic?
      Jul 4, 2018
  • Microsoft sgrQ26
    It should be called Why Women Don't Want to Code. Much more accurate title.
    Jun 26, 2018 4
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      Nope
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft sgrQ26
      OP didn't u read the article?
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft JDwb49
      It does not go deep into explaining why women don't want to code.

      It did not mention "thing oriented" vs. "human oriented".
      The correlation of "thing oriented" with the levels of male hormones during the fetus development wasn't mentioned either.
      Jun 27, 2018
    • Facebook AsEB37
      Of course women can and do code, some better than many men! The truth that the article points out is that it’s not an identical distribution.

      If you plot coding-ability on x-axis and number of people on y-axis, you’ll see that the distribution of men is flatter than women. I.e. there are more incompetent men at the lower end of the distribution AND there are more competent men at the higher end of the distribution. Most women would be clustered closer to the mean rather than the extremes. To ignore this is to live in denial of reality. We all know this to be empirically true from our daily lives, in various ways. This distribution difference occurs across the big 5 personality traits. Another example is aggression and disagreeableness where again there’s this flatness of distribution. For example this is partly why there are so many more men in prison. Do want to equalize that? 50-50? What happened- Not a noble effort anymore?
      Jun 27, 2018
  • Facebook supichai
    OP you will be banned soon
    Jun 26, 2018 3
    • Microsoft ThisOrThat
      OP
      For pasting an article by a UW prof
      Damn you thought police
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Sapient Razorfish
      JustDGAF

      Sapient Razorfish

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      JustDGAFmore
      That’s true.
      Thought police don’t like diversity thinking.
      Jun 26, 2018
    • Microsoft sgrQ26
      Start flagging anyone that post ad homs
      Jun 26, 2018
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Microsoft JDwb49
      The bar has really been lowered if Microsoft hires people who cannot read.
      Jun 27, 2018
    • IBM / Eng 👁🐝Ⓜ️
      I find it funny how the hard left is now the anti-scientific political group.
      Jun 29, 2018
    • IBM / Eng 👁🐝Ⓜ️
      It’s not confirmation bias to accept the general knowledge of biology and social science.

      The area of academia that is in conflict with everything else is the humanities unfortunately. Ironic that you mention confirmation bias since it is the humanities (gender studies, race studies, etc.) that have almost zero thought diversity And therefore very poor academic review scrutiny.
      Jun 29, 2018
  • Sapient Razorfish
    JustDGAF

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    JustDGAFmore
    Thx OP. Equality of outcome is modern day tool for discrimination.
    Jun 26, 2018 0
  • Wizards of the Coast aaaabaa
    Lol quillette
    Jun 26, 2018 0