Will UBI really work?

New / Eng
罪人

NewEng

BIO
I hate these niggas more than the Nazis.
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Feb 8 23 Comments

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TOP 23 Comments
  • Google Indian cat
    These experiments are just papers on cracking walls of human consciousnesses and society.

    Complete individualism and liberalism is a farce. Humans aren't designed/ready for that. I want to be the owner of my choices, but still want everyone to act as I like it. It's a paradox. It will never become true.

    Raise human consciousnesses, and all such experiments will become unnecessary, or better yet, might succeed without much efforts.
    Feb 88
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      “I want to be the owner of my choices, but still want everyone to act as I like it. It's a paradox. It will never become true.”

      Lots of people who have different ideas but want to be the owner of the factors in our lives... sounds like democracy is the best way to mediate these conflicts. It’s much better than having a hierarchy, a boss or USSR economic bureaucrat, decide for everyone else.
      Feb 8
    • Google Indian cat
      Not arguing about democracy. I am arguing against UBI and other such socialist (question: is it socialist ?) experiments to understand human behavior and formulate theories of what works and what doesn't.

      I believe all such experiments are superficial and show nothing. They are highly dependent upon moral levels and consciousnesses of the society being experimented on. So, why not spend that effort on actually raising consciousnesses. That effort indeed, will be far more replicable across the world as after all, we are all humans.
      Feb 8
    • Google Indian cat
      Here's an example of Iceland saving kids from smoking by raising consciousnesses level. How ? By asking parents to spend more time with kids. Guess how much money was spent from national treasury ?

      https://youtu.be/cDbD_JSCrNo

      Personally, in today's world, my biggest hope and fear is both from religion. Hope from religions like Buddhism and Hinduism where the goal is to raise consciousnesses levels in self. Fear from religions like Islam and Christianity where the goal is to get to heaven after the earth is destroyed.
      Feb 8
    • Microsoft
      MP3

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Troll living under the I-5 overpass
      MP3more
      “Lots of people who have different ideas but want to be the owner of the factors in our lives... sounds like democracy is the best way to mediate these conflicts.” 🤣 Yes, democracy is always the right answer.
      Feb 8
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Ok thanks for the clarification. I don’t believe UBI is “socialist” or that it’s an experiment. I think where it’s coming from is automation and basically less need for jobs - but in a society where jobs are needed by most people to survive. So it’s an approach to a social issue - I just disagree that it’s the best option for workers or unemployed workers.

      As a socialist, the only “consciousness” that fits into socialism is basically workers deciding to run work democratically. Yes that’s not immediately on the agenda, but it isn’t directly related to a higher or spiritual consciousness. It’s not about “fixing” people’s minds or anything like that - the idea is to change the arrangement of work so that workers actually have power over the work they do. It’s more about “society’s current nature” than “human nature”.
      Feb 8
    • Google Indian cat
      Yes, we have talked on different levels as of now.

      I do think however, that "society's current nature" is a superficial concept. The deeper concept is the "human nature", which is not being focussed upon, and ignored within all the chatter of society's nature (read individualism, liberalism, feminism, socialism, capitalism, communism etc). After all, a society is a collection of humans.
      Feb 8
    • Microsoft
      MP3

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Troll living under the I-5 overpass
      MP3more
      @Indian cat:
      What are you personally doing to raise consciousness of humanity?
      Feb 8
    • Google Indian cat
      Talking about it !
      Feb 9
  • Collective Health pear
    Of course it doesn’t work. Whatever money you get from UBI is how much everything will rise in cost due to inflation. Then they’ll say xxx amount is not enough for a “livable wage”. So they’ll keep having to double it every few years till they finally just say we need to tax millionaires at 90% income and asset seizure. Socialism is a cancer. The only reason so many software engineers believe in that nonsense is because most software engineers have a college degree and universities in this country are ran by liberals.
    Feb 85
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      I’m a socialist because I spent more than a decade as an adult working jobs that never paid more than $12/hr... in the Bay Area where my rent in a crappy apartment was 2/3rd of my income.

      I was a capitalist as a kid, but then I got a job and grew up.
      Feb 8
    • Microsoft Hfsevjk
      So you worked in jobs with lots of labor supply and relatively low output demand/productivity. Then you leveraged your talents + hard work to move up the ladder to a career that has much more labor scarcity, higher per person output, and high wages. Now that you’ve risen to the top 1% of the income scale you decide that socialism is the answer 🤦🏽‍♂️
      Feb 9
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Nah, being poor just helped me see the bullshit myths about our society that sheltered middle class people are ignorant about.

      I got low paying jobs because that’s what was available. Restaurant jobs had low output I guess, but not low demand... other jobs were low paying with high productivity and demand. Try working at UPS and tell me it’s low demand and low productivity!

      Then my wife’s mom died and she got 20k which allowed me to work part-time and go to school.

      So I guess the American Dream is possible for poor people if their parents have a house and die early. What a system!

      (Also, I don’t make half a million a year, so not the 1% in income earners... “The national minimum income for the top 1 percent in the U.S. is $421,926, according to a new report.Jul 23, 2018”)
      Feb 9
    • Microsoft Hfsevjk
      Ha. Well props to you and interesting how similar paths can lead to different perspectives. I grew up in a low income single parent household and spent 5 years working in restaurants and 18 months on the preload shift at UPS post-HS and through college. I pushed a ton of cardboard, but at the end of the day there was nothing that differentiated my skill and output from that if anyone else on the line. That’s why the low salary was commensurate with the individual value add.

      That said UPS loaders become drivers and make a great middle class society with a pension and great benefits. A lot of the restaurant folks I worked with moved on and up as well - some have started their own restaurants, some are making markets on the purveyor side, and others just crush it in tips, etc. All of these paths are enabled by capitalism.

      I definitely see our system as one where anyone can move up the ladder, as long as they work hard and apply their effort towards activities that scale in their ability to add value to society.

      In terms of income level, I think we have to look globally. That way we can compare our economic system against others internationally.
      Feb 9
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Haha, yeah we’ll have to agree to disagree on this. Low-wage work adds a tremendous value to companies (value to “society” is not a determining factor in capitalism otherwise as agencies would not get paid). What you are right about is that these jobs are made replaceable and de-skilled... not due to the workforce not learning the right skills or whatnot but due to this being profitable.

      And what is our industry doing? De-skilling more (“disruption”) so that everyone is expendable. It works great for a few shareholders and board members but is hollowing out the working population.

      As far as comparisons... well everywhere has the same general system now aside from remote areas where people subsist on family farming and home-production and maybe whatever weird state-command economy North Korea has. I suppose we can look at policies of various capitalist countries and compare those. But the US is generally lower on the list of standards of living, life expectancy, and happiness among “developed” economies.
      Feb 9
  • OpenDoor MhBB55
    “Did not help jobless” and “did not lead them to find work” are two very different statements.
    Feb 80
  • No simple answer. Depends on the objectives and costs. Is the objective to keep people out of poverty regardless of cost? If yes, It would work.
    Feb 80
  • Intel Pajajsj
    Paying people to not work usually results in more people not working.

    Welfare by another name.
    Feb 82
    • It's welfare by the name welfare, it's just not considered a dirty word outside of the US.

      Trust me we all think you guys are backwards.

      You literally have shit on your streets and like 1-2% of your entire population in jail.
      Feb 8
    • Credit Karma EllisDee25
      Then maybe employers would need to offer a life more attractive than eating cheese and sharing a room in a crappy apartment in order to attract talent.
      Feb 8
  • Spotify KXAo87
    Public works is better than ubi in my opinion. Instead of letting the military be the poverty mop, let's have people work on the infrastructure so the rest of the economy can also benefit
    Feb 80
  • Credit Karma EllisDee25
    I’m a socialist - not in favor of this. In Europe it’s been floated as a way to get rid of existing social welfare. Many socialist see UBI as a neoliberal scam on workers.

    The “socialist” answer to unemployment due to automation is first that workers should have more workplace power over how tech is utilized and implemented. Ultimately automation should make our work easier and more productive - rather than be used to reduce the workforce and speed-up the remaining workers.
    Feb 80
  • Google / Eng
    euos

    GoogleEng

    PRE
    Nvidia, Nokia
    euosmore
    Does that mean we will have to work to get money? (Turned off my phone, went to get some coffee and play pool)
    Feb 80

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