Any googlers wanna talk about this manifesto?

Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
Aug 4, 2017 184 Comments

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TOP 184 Comments
  • Netflix AqEe56
    It is a pleasure and an honor to work with diverse individuals who are amazing at their jobs. It's also the shame of America that black and Latino people and women are born at such a dramatic economic and cultural disadvantage that they very rarely make it through to Google level tech jobs. This document perpetuates that system by suggesting races and genders have inherently different ability to code in C++ or JavaScript or own products or administer Linux or train neural networks or manage people. The mere suggestion of that IS THE PROBLEM.

    If you believe that you are truly stupid.

    Donald Trump has brought you out of the woodwork. Imagine that... Donald Dumpster Fire Trump is your cultural ambassador.

    If you feel diversity is bad I strongly urge you to identify yourselves openly at your company and in public. Make your views known and state your name. Stop hiding.
    Aug 5, 201719
    • Amazon Peter Pan
      Netflix do you really think biological differences between men and women cannot be questioned? Youre lying to yourself if you think that sexual dimorphism doesn't exist in the brain.

      One day we are going to look back at this PC madness and feel very silly
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Netflix AqEe56
      And there we have it.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Amazon Peter Pan
      Nobody has to even make claims about sexual dimorphism causing the lack of gender diversity because as soon as it gets even brought up people go fucking insane
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Seems like you are just trying to bring Trump into the discussion? Sorry buddy but this is all about Google and diversity hiring
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Netflix AqEe56
      You don't see the connection?
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Not really. This is more about internal disputes about diversity hiring. Same is going on at Microsoft. Quite honestly I also have a problem with people who are unqualified being hired. And I'm a minority
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Netflix AqEe56
      I also don't want unqualified people to get hired. We definitely agree on that.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google kMGB77
      Google does not adjust the bar based on race or gender. Extra effort is made to source diversity candidates but that's it.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      Coding C++ requires high IQ; are you unaware of group average racial differences in IQ? Wanting a career in programming is correlated with object-oriented mindsets; are you unaware of group average gender differences in object vs person orientation?

      Lot of ignorant comments out here.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google kMGB77
      ^^^^ was that parody?
      Aug 6, 2017
  • Uber 2Tpj4u
    Diversity is stupid
    Aug 4, 20173
    • Hubspot tRRC85
      Works at uber, comment makes sense
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
      OP
      You're not getting your job back, Travis.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • New / Eng
      fcktechiez

      NewEng

      BIO
      trolled you eh bud?
      fcktechiezmore
      kys T-dog
      Aug 5, 2017
  • Expedia Lamer
    Opinions of a few idiots do not represent an entire company. It's like picking a stupid thing westboro baptist church did and asking other Christians what they think on the subject
    Aug 4, 20178
    • Amazon Peter Pan
      If a woman wrote a sexism manifesto it would be called an "open letter" and would be seen as calling out the company which would immediately be expected to defend itself
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Expedia Lamer
      Yet you don't really see professional women writing such letters, do you?
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Netflix AqEe56
      It's more like, this guy felt emboldened to send around that document and while the only appropriate response is strong and unqualified repudiation, some people partially agree with him or say "what's the big deal" or "it's just one radical."
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Nextdoor WjEz17
      You can't be 'discriminated' against for being racist and sexist.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Expedia Lamer
      @AqEe56,I agree, the fact that he was emboldened to do so is scary. I just don't think that blaming everyone will fix it.hopefully google deals with all involved and approving parties how they deserve to be dealt with
      Aug 5, 2017
    • New / EngNyPhl23
      The fact that calling for open dialogue is something some might consider "radical" further validates the author's point of the echo chamber
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Google senik23
      He cited his sources. Quillette had a piece where credible scientists confirmed his interpretation of the data. The denialists here are pretty much just liberal creationists. Sorry you don't like the scientific reality but it's still true.
      Aug 10, 2017
    • New / Other520476
      @senik23 keep us informed of your status, please. Looks like your company is out to purge everyone like you.
      Aug 12, 2017
  • Microsoft / EngNerdz
    Unless it came from leadership who cares?

    The whole notion of considering gender/race in medical school, law school, high tech applications is inherently sexist/racist.

    Just because someone makes an argument you disagree with doesn't mean you should name call, bully or shame them. It means you should give a counter argument.

    I'm getting sick of this west coast witch hunt mentality. It's like when Satya made the faux pax about women not asking for raises. It was a dumb comment but doesn't mean he's sexist.
    Aug 5, 20173
    • Expedia Lamer
      It does make a difference because it is highly likely that this person interviews candidates. If they really believe in this manifesto, there is a good chance they have turned down a number of qualified women just because
      They would be less likely to provide positive feedback for female peers and more likely to provide negatives that enforce their idea thus directly affecting other people's career.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Facebook LMrs81
      ^ that's BS, the decisions are made by a hiring committee, and interviewers are expected to provide reasoning for their hire/nohire recommendations
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Expedia Lamer
      Facebook, there are a 100 ways to get someone to fail an interview with the entire hiring committee, especially if you're not the last interviewer. Thinking that the committee somehow helps with this is naive
      Would you stay silent and go on an interview if you knew that one of the interviewers dislikes you and hope that the hiring committee can see past it?
      Aug 5, 2017
  • Pinterest / Engpanicpanda
    Guy's an idiot. That being said, it's often not a fair split. Being a single white person on a full team of Indians is just as bad as a single Indian on team of whites. both scenarios happen often. except that in the white case, it's worse due to language restriction and fear of being seen as a bigot if you complain about it.
    Aug 4, 20175
    • Salesforce mlovingit
      Well learn the Indian language then. They learned yours. Just saying.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • T-Mobile sFRP84
      I blame managers for imbalanced teams. I've had Pakistani manager who coincidentally hired 4 Pakistanis in a row over a few years time and raised eyebrows. A Korean manager who hired 3 Korean in a row (one who thought apple cloud was a physical telephone model). I had one manager that truly stuck to diversified hiring practices and he was a loving man that was white. He was truly color blind and I miss his fairness.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Salesforce / Eng
      P.Gibbons

      SalesforceEng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      P.Gibbonsmore
      I'll learn "Indian language" right after I decide to move to India and work there. Just saying.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Bluebot / OtherPerry Grin
      The most common language in India is English. There are dozens of languages spoken in India. Hindi is probably less common than you think. English is spoken by everyone with a degree, and most of the population.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Booz Allen Hamilton / EngFYMB45
      I'll learn a language other than English when computer code is based on something other than English.
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Google HKeh50
    It was a pretty reasonable first draft of a doc - could have used more sourcing but the basic ideas were sound and respectfully presented. Lots of people saw value in the discussion, but even more flipped out and declared that a call for reasoned discussion of an empirical question was harmful and threatening to them; management/HR is going to side with them because that's the PC police state of today's tech companies.
    Aug 5, 20176
    • Talkdesk / Otherpoop 💩
      This. It's really sad that we can't have any real discussion on this town in even remotely controversial topics.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Spotify / Engqbeforeu
      What is the "empirical question" you reference?
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google KKYK57
      I'm afraid it was a phenomenally NOT great first draft. The ideas were profoundly not sound.

      If he just wanted to start with the last page, which might have been fine (conservatives SHOULD feel psychologically safe; all employees should), he should have kept it to that, without the poorly sourced pseudoscience.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      Empirical question: Are there group average differences in the personalities and motivations of men and women that might account for some of the underrepresentation of women in tech companies?
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      There's a lot of relevant science out there, some of it cited in the doc. When he shared it with a small - but open - group it was with the intention of soliciting comments to improve the doc, and it has evolved over the last few days, including more sources being cited.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      The public never saw any of the sources. Is it possible to get those?
      Aug 6, 2017
  • Microsoft / Engric_ta
    Have these people been on Google campus? "Google repeatedly discriminates against people of color". I guess Indians and Chinese don't count as minorities? wtf. This is just a bunch of angry individuals who want to lower the bar so people who can't pass the interviews can be installed into positions they aren't qualified for.
    Aug 5, 20179
    • Lyft fear-me
      South and east asians are not minorities in tech. And literally no one advocating for diversity has asked to lower the bar and make interviews "easier." Please get your facts right.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      What does Asians not being minorities in tech have to do with it? So you basically want to redefine what a minority is so that you can cry discrimination. Any industry can do this. Is teaching being sexist against men? Where is the outrage? Fact is, tech is diverse already, and more open than any industry out there for the mat part. You're living in a bubble in your taxi hailing company. And people are absolutely advocating for lowering the bar for interviews. You just aren't listening, but can't blame you bc the rhetoric is about unconscious bias and cultural discrimination in interviews, cleverly disguised as scams for lowering the bar
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Lyft fear-me
      Lowering the bar != making hiring processes more equitable.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      You don't understand Lowering the bar for SPECIFIC subgroups == hiring processes are not equitable for everyone, and there will be a class of folks who will be looked at as being favored. As a minority I had to fight to get where I am. I don't want to be viewed as someone who got handouts
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Lyft fear-me
      Listen, I get it. Minorities work hard af to make it here. But stereotypes and false info are everywhere and you can do very little to change perceptions ppl are raised on. The least companies can do is use research to make those biases not as integral to hiring decisions. Is it fair to give a sick person and a healthy person the same medicine? Similar thing here.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      So now minorities are sick people? Really there's no justification for this. Realistically this is a supply pipeline problem. People will try to explain to hell and back why it's not, but here's a homework assignment. Figure out the percentage of women and underrepresented minorities who graduated in computer science last year and compare it to hiring percentage last year. You'll quickly see it's pretty much a mirror image. Now if the talk is why aren't (underrepresented) minorities aren't entering computer science field as much, that's a different story
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Lyft fear-me
      I'm just saying minorties have a harder hill to climb. Honestly society is sick. Antiblackness is a sickness. Transphobia is a sickness. Anything that takes away a human's ability to view another human as worth of respect and dignity is a sickness. And even if we consider the pipeline, retention is a whole other ballpark. I believe that equitable hiring processes give way to an equitable culture. If more minorities who get in stay in, then that will attract others.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Unfortunately this positive discrimination will only backfire. Minorities don't want to be seen as the "sick people" as you used in your example. You probably didn't mean it that way, but that is how it will be viewed. After a while, even the minorities like myself who had to pass the same tough interviews will be viewed by white, Asians etc as someone who just got to the position I'm at because of the handouts I received. I just don't want white liberals ruining another industry that is already fair and equitable by using demagoguery for political gain
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Uber 2Tpj4u
      The "minorities" here in US have nothing to climb comparing to most of us who are immigrants.
      Aug 5, 2017
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Salesforce mlovingit
      What's the guys name?
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Uber / Engbag
      Hey i am curious and i have some thoughts on the topic as well. If you can copy paste the doc that would be great. Anyway it's not any Google confidential info - this is personal opinion of a person. Your choice after all.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • New / Eng
      fcktechiez

      NewEng

      BIO
      trolled you eh bud?
      fcktechiezmore
      Lol peanut butter jelly time
      Aug 5, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      Possibly updated doc: https://t.co/Yn6t1qcWzR
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Lockheed Martin / Other
      Schz3

      Lockheed MartinOther

      PRE
      industrialoptic
      Schz3more
      I had the same take that it does *not* say women are less qualified than men, only that on *average* (and he also points out that individual spreads are larger than the differences between these averages) women approach work differently. While i believe his assertions are mostly wrong, I felt their thoughts were presented in a respectful and open minded way. amongst other things he seems to imply women are better at teamwork than men, and then proceeds to talk about why teamwork does not always lead to professional success because their is less self promotion at the expense of others.
      Aug 9, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      What makes you think they are wrong. Which assertions do you disagree with more?
      Aug 9, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      And even the original doc had plenty of sources. They were just removed when it was posted on Gizmodo.
      Aug 9, 2017
    • Lockheed Martin / Other
      Schz3

      Lockheed MartinOther

      PRE
      industrialoptic
      Schz3more
      "Evolutionary psychology" may be a legit field but it's weak findings are way over interpreted in pop press. Whenever I see anything about it my BS radar goes off. His blanket stereotypes of "left" and "right" beliefs do not look right to me. The claim that exposure to androgens in the womb are what make male and female behavior different and has nothing to do with androgen exposure later in life is obviously goofy af or testosterone would not impact libido of both genders, help people with low levels be less depressed etc. the list goes on. Not worthwhile deconstructing the whole thing, but already those are foundational points to the rest.
      Aug 9, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      Most of the views around what is right for how to handle the genders are varying levels of dodgy. Which would be less worrying if recent cultural changes weren't so widespread and we had at least 5-10 generations to judge their impacts to validate them.

      The androgens thing is generally proven for significant behavioral changes in girls who experience them in the womb... Men derive from an initially female template, so a partial activation of some code from androgen exposure would hardly be shocking.

      As for the conservative / liberal thing... It's something of a generalization but say you think of it as early adopters and late adopters... The early adopters reveal whether something has value and allows it to be refined before it's more widely accepted.

      You can't have whole societies of early adopters or you wouldn't have any long term stability.

      Of course, if you grow up in a liberal area, your conservative bias would likely just protect and enforce local beliefs... But the principle of managed adoption through real world testing - is an understandable and necessary trait for humanity to have.

      It's just that humanity isn't designed for the current rate of change or separation of sub-populations.
      Aug 9, 2017
  • Google Max11chars
    White guy with Harvard education thinks Google discriminates white guys.

    He's right, probably. But them's the shakes, bro. He hasn't gotten the message yet that his lot in life is to endure all the diversity and inclusion programs and political correctness while still enjoying the world's best opportunities.

    Needs to shaddup and get in line, he ain't suffering
    Aug 5, 20175
    • Databricks / Eng
      datadicks

      DatabricksEng

      BIO
      Sucking data
      datadicksmore
      Ah one of those Harvard dudes
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Bluebot / OtherPerry Grin
      @noodleking a degree from a respectable school does not imply the graduate to also be a respectable person. Nor, an authority , nor an expert, and not even educated on the topic.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • New hRQl25
      If you work at google signal me - 3014127324
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google Max11chars
      My point about Harvard is that the guy who posted the document went to the #1 school and works at the #1 company. Makes more money at age 26 or whatever than 99% of people ever will. And then he posts this doc about being discriminated against.

      The world is his oyster. He can be a mega millionaire and have anything he wants. He just needs to realize that if he just shuts up and plays the PC game, he will be fine
      Aug 5, 2017
    • CapTech JJNl18
      Lmao ^^^ the crutch of every Google employee - the idea that they will get 10 mil in seed funding for an idea they half have just because they worked for Google 💩 - not sure if you’ve checked in with Uber lately but that mentality isn’t working out so well.
      Aug 8, 2017
  • Sovos / Ops$$$???
    I think the manifesto is fairly reasonable. The reaction from those that disagree has been focused on shaming and that supports one of the writer's main points.

    I would like to see substantive responses from news outlets and twitter critics. The "this guy is bad" reactions are not productive.
    Aug 5, 20176
    • Netflix AqEe56
      The section on "women on average are more..." is insulting and apropos of nothing whatsoever. The author suggesting that the severe gender imbalances in tech are due to the natural order of things and don't necessarily need to be changed is the most backward shit ever. This is not a reasonable point of view, it's just being a total asshole.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Uber 2Tpj4u
      The author is right.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google miCJ74
      it's impossible to make a naturalism argument when women's role models are like Kim Kardashian, famous for simply having a nice ass. It starts at a young age. My GF has a PhD in the sciences and had to start fighting at a young age when she refused dolls and instead preferred to play with trucks and disassemble electronics while everyone thought she was a weird child for not succumbing to gender stereotypes. Her professors told her women should be home cooking. She went though to get a PhD just because so many people discouraged her. Many women gave up rather than fight.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      miCJ74: That's a ridiculous argument, but even if it weren't it would support the point that the doc's author was making: whatever the cause of the group average gender differences, the relevant fact is that they exist, and therefore we should not expect 50/50 representation in all fields in the absence of discrimination.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Sovos / Ops$$$???
      AqEe56 - thank you for sharing your thoughts. What is the ultimate goal of the diversity programming at Google, in specific and measurable terms? Is it a 50/50 gender split in IT jobs?

      If that's the case Google should apply their diversity programs at colleges, rather than on their campus. In 2015, Google IT jobs were 18% women. In 2015, Stanford's Com Sci enrollment was 30% years women; in 2012 Stanford's Com Sci enrollment was much lower at 21% (https://medium.com/@jcueto/race-and-gender-among-computer-science-majors-at-stanford-3824c4062e3a)

      I wouldn't expect Google's IT workforce to track with the most recent stats from Stanford, as their workforce is made up of people who graduated from colleges over the last 40+ years.

      Given the input, we can't expect the output to be 50/50.

      This is one reductionist explanation of demographics in IT. Factors outside of education choices play a role as well. The manifesto author's discussion of personality differences between men and women on a population basis has support in Psychological research (gle.com/amp/s/kkkk://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201201/gender-differences-in-personality-are-larger-previously-thought%3famp)

      The author did not say that individual women are incapable of programming at Google. They attempted to explain why the demographics in IT jobs don't match the population at large and attempted to make a case that Diversity programs at Google will not counteract those factors effectively or in a way that will have tangible benefit for Google.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google miCJ74
      HKeh50- the systematic discrimination is real and not ridiculous. Though I agree Google can do little if most candidates are men, the problem is bigger than Google. Google can't undo millennia of indoctrination.
      Aug 6, 2017
  • Google miCJ74
    dude argued from the premise that we lower standards to diversify which is flat out wrong. and assumed unconscious bias training needed to be rolled back, without any support whatsoever, other than it may upset people. he presented the bullshit in a nice format, with graphs even, but I've been here too long to recognize such bullshit. Was good for a chuckle. tldr; kid wasn't spanked enough as a child.
    Aug 5, 20175
    • Microsoft / Eng
      Gregp

      MicrosoftEng

      PRE
      Amazon
      Gregpmore
      That's great to know about Google.

      In Microsoft, I have seen many times people were not fired for underperforming to maintain diversity.

      Infact, I am gonna say It's virtually impossible to get fired from Microsoft if you tick the right checkbox.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google miCJ74
      before it was a buzzword UB was studied, with many peer reviewed papers. even the famous Blink book talked extensively about it. but most people, like the manchild who wrote the doc, just see that it's being "pushed" on us and ignorantly assume it's garbage.


      having said that, we all are idiots when we're young so he will grow up.

      if I were judged by the things I said when young I'd never be a googler.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      Malcolm Gladwell is not capable of understanding the science he attempts to present. Implicit attitude tests, which were part of the training, have been shown to bear little to no relation to behavior, and scores are not reliable. Unconscious bias certainly does exist, but there's no reason to believe that it's predominately wrong or anti-woman/minority.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google miCJ74
      "As predicted, those who revealed stronger negative attitudes toward Blacks (vs Whites) on the IAT had more negative social interactions with a Black (vs a White) experimenter and reported relatively more negative Black prejudices on explicit measures."

      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103100914707
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      "The IAT, this research suggests, is a noisy, unreliable measure that correlates far too weakly with any real-world outcomes to be used to predict individuals’ behavior — even the test’s creators have now admitted as such. "
      http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html
      Aug 6, 2017
  • New / EngElementary
    The writer, a James Damore, has been doxxed and fired.

    Updated doc link:

    https://t.co/Yn6t1qcWzR

    An internal Google survey for agreement / disagreement:

    https://twitter.com/sonyaellenmann/status/894756561087746049
    Aug 7, 201717
    • New / EngElementary
      @ric_ta: Lawyers taking the case would be seen as anti-women, anti-liberal. No big Silicon Valley law firm needs that trouble locally.

      He's going to need outside help. Which complicates his life further.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
      OP
      Yeah right. He's not a protected class and is an at-will employee that can get fired with or without cause. He has no case.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      we shall see
      Aug 7, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      Even assuming he wins a court case, what kind of damages might he get?

      Is he effectively unemployable now in Silicon Valley? Yes.

      Is he likely to be able to start a startup or get funding? Probably not in the US and maybe not in English speaking countries.

      Unless he becomes an alt-right poster boy and gets support from that crowd.

      In many ways, his life could be over. Time for the kid to embrace the dark side. lol
      Aug 8, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      He's employable. Nobody will remember this after a while. He will win some money on the grounds of pain and suffering and loss of pay I'm guessing. He can even write a book and sell it on Conservative radio. He will actually make money on this if he's smart. I felt bad for the guy when they pasted his photo on the Bay area news at 6.
      Aug 8, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      In the near future, there's too much uproar for him to be employed anywhere else that doesn't want to seem misogynistic.

      In the future... Googling his name will likely still pull up his main claim to fame and that Google fired him for it.

      Which is part of why my initial thought was that he should change his name - but that would be inadequate on its own without some gymnastics.

      Like I said, joining the conservative crowd may be his best bet. Cambridge Analytica probably needs more high quality talent to support their agenda.

      They still need to make sure that more Trump stooges win 2018.
      Aug 8, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Believe it or not you don't have to use your real name except on your I-9 and your background check. I use an alias for my name since it's a hard to pronounce African name
      Aug 8, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      You assume modern recruiters won't check his LinkedIn or Google his name and verify his Harvard credentials if he claims them?

      What about the basic references check? You think recruiters will be happy not being able to track down actual info on him?
      Aug 8, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      You give recruiters too much credit. One called me today asking if I know "C plus". Not C, Not C++, but C+
      Aug 8, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      Heh. I expect them to be okay in human stuff, if perhaps not in tech.

      But this is as much the kind of headache that would annoy you anytime it got found out - unless it's somehow resolved positively.
      Aug 8, 2017
  • Google Lorenipsum
    I'm a woman and a SWE at Google. This document didn't offend me, and while I may not agree with all of the author's claims, I also don't think we should be demonizing him, and I think he made a fair number of good points as well. Honestly, while some of the specific differences between men and women he referenced are misinformed - I think he's being attacked for just insinuating that there *are* differences; meanwhile, Sheryl Sandberg is lauded for doing the same thing. His proposals to make SWE positions more "women friendly" aren't that different from MIT's overhauling of its Course 6 curriculum (replacing Scheme with robots) for the same purpose, or the replacement of the theory-heavy AP Computer Science AB course with "AP Intro to CS Principles," a watered-down version designed to draw in female students with essays about the role of CS in society (it worked, fwiw, and female enrollment skyrocketed). Both of those changes bothered me more than this "manifesto" - for their implications that women couldn't do the real work. This guy never suggested that women can't do the work- he just said that on average, less of them want to, which from my observations of my peers is unfortunately true.
    Aug 7, 20174
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      +1
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Blippar anonymous_
      I'm glad that you have the objectivity to see it this way instead of virtue signalling, despite coming from the other side of the aisle, and am confident that you are as competent as any of the other good engineers I've known.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Google Lorenipsum
      Thanks. Just wanted to clarify my last point, when I say my peers don't want to do the work, I mean anecdotally, a lot of my female social circle is not interested in tech. My female peers in tech are certainly as hard working and competent as the men.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      Female SWEs are often a different group than most women. Not that you couldn't say something similar about male SWEs also.

      If the proprtions fit for certain roles differ across genders, we should hardly be surprised.

      There was no God deciding to maintain equality in talents across different human groups so that we could all feel more comfortable about it with our modern morality.
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Amazon Jeff Balls
    Diversity always help a team to growth more, this is a grey area is better to have a diverse team but no because of that you are going to force that. I'm a minority and I don't like to get any special treatment because of that. I'm sure there are great talent people any gender / color. When I work in a diverse team I enjoy more my workplace and team. I hope some day the resumes and interview process can remove the face / color / gender and just focus on the background / experience of each candidate.
    Aug 5, 20177
    • Microsoft tenX{!}
      This. Yes!!!!
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      That's just going to lead to more white men getting hired.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Amazon Jeff Balls
      No, you are biased, @Hkeh50
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      Unfortunately, I don't think people/companies will ever want to do blind interviews 🙁
      People in general don't trust (and I don't expect them to, ever) to give people offers without seeing their face.
      (exception is sometimes interns who get hired after a few phone interviews)
      Aug 6, 2017
    • New / EngNyPhl23
      @HKeh50 if you think removing race/ gender from resumes will get more white men hired, you must also think white men are more qualified, which sounds a little racist to me
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Google senik23
      Meritocracy beats diversity every day. The problem is that these giant companies are monopolies and its more important to their business interests to please the DOJ than to write good code... hence the PC culture and all of the diversity hires.
      Aug 10, 2017
    • Google HKeh50
      @NyPhl23 sounds like you are unfamiliar with the data on CS graduates by race, patents by race, IQ by race, etc. Fortunately, Google is still your friend in these matters: educate yourself.
      Aug 11, 2017
  • Facebook Raichu
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/dna-explained.com/2013/10/24/human-genetics-revolution-tells-us-that-men-and-women-are-not-the-same/amp/

    I guess it originated from this. But hey we should not talk about this. Talking about this is heresy. We are back in medieval times.
    Aug 5, 201712
    • Microsoft
      Eleni

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things
      Elenimore
      I agree it is better to discuss things - I'm just always leery of things that can e used to force people to a specific role based on an area that isn't that well known. And just because there are biological differences doesn't mean we should give in and continue to let the social contributors to differences play the massive role they do. 😊
      Aug 5, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      Lol what?
      Coding is fucking awesome. Let a woman make something that's useful in her life or something that's in general appealing to her and she will appreciate it.

      Fun fact: many modern-day women in CS started from something like making profile pages for games like neopets or Gaia online

      - a woman
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      You shouldn't shove anything down anyone's throat. All you should do is make it an appealing option (or at least, no more favorable or unfavorable than other options, if possible) earlier on in life, and women will come.

      We had one computer/programming/web design class in high school (that was filled with slacker students, if it was offered at all) and I grew up in the south bay. We need more than that.

      I'd love to see more guys of other races in cs too.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      Eh, think of women-dominated fields - nursing, teaching, etc. Does anyone ever tell those girls that those jobs have a "pleasant and supportive culture where they are likely to be happy"? (also, what about the guys in those industries? Do you think they need to be told it's a pleasant and supportive culture?)

      I think once we bring more women in, they'll shape the culture to be one where it'll become mainstream and good for both genders. Both bring them in, and keep them happy with so they stay for a long time.

      Random: my parents actually told me software engineering is a good job for women because there's good work-life balance and good pay. They also said the same about pharmacy. (I looked into pharmacy because of that. I found my interest in cs all on my own in college)
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      That sucks, but I guess that can be a thing that happens. People (including myself) have thought I was the "princess" of the team (I definitely worked hard, but my boss bought candy for the team after seeing I ate it quite a bit, and used to buy/give me/our team stuff but no one else) but after getting a PIP, I'm not so sure if that's the case anymore.
      But I think small things like that can be a double-edged sword - on one hand, it makes them slightly less likely to quit. But it can also backfire when they realize they're getting special treatment or that the guys realize they're not.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Microsoft
      Eleni

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things
      Elenimore
      The "princess" treatment only applies to young, pretty women. I am glad to hear you are pulling your own weight now and not relying on treats.

      Personally, I think that kind of treatment is remarkably patronizing. I wish people would stop it.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      The whole team benefited from whatever was going on - we all got boba and candy and whatever else. Only other teams didn't. But now it's stopped so it's all back to equal.

      Also, I got a pip from the same boss so idk what's up anymore.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      Not sure how I'd even bring it up to my boss, though. Especially since I guess I've fallen out of favor.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      We still have the candy, now the the whole office comes to it multiple times a day.

      But i have a pip so I know exactly what I need to do. I just need to do it long enough to find a new job.

      I've never been to really pull the cutesy move. I'm not manipulative enough for that, and on top of that I value appearing mature and responsible.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      We shape our own destiny
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Microsoft c0d3
    I find the current diversity narrative frustrating. It seems to simply be converting unconscious bias to conscious bias.
    Aug 5, 20170
  • Spotify / Engqbeforeu
    You kinda have to admire the courage of someone willing to put themselves as such an ass in front of everyone
    Aug 5, 20173
    • Microsoft
      Eleni

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things
      Elenimore
      What you call courage I call arrogance. And arrogant Ivy League SWE are a dime a dozen.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      Ivy leagues aren't even top 5 cs schools 😂
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google Max11chars
      I don't know if this comment is sarcastic. I don't really admire that. Lots of people take very real risks and take stands on things that are actually important and impactful. I admire those people.

      If you want to admire someone for taking a stand, history is rife with examples. This is not really admirable so much as stupid
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Microsoft tenX{!}
    I’d rather this discussion come to the surface rather than lurking in the shadows.
    Aug 5, 20170
  • Blippar anonymous_
    Not discriminating against people based on their background is absolutely important. I've also seen affirmative action ravage an entire country. Before you start insulting me, I'm not a white guy.

    The article does raise some interesting questions, whether they be true or false.

    If you disagree with the article, then debate its merits and demerits. It shows a lack of intelligence, and lack of the ability to think from first principles, to simply insult someone because they have a different view point. I'm seeing a lot of that here, which is counterproductive.
    Aug 6, 20173
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Problem in the prevailing tech culture is the debate is long dead before it starts as someone will invariably be labeled a racist, sexist or some other 'ist' for having an opposing view to what is put out by the 'higher ups'
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Capital One VRqA34
      If your opinion is wrong the last thing you want is open discussion and debate. Some ideas demand the squashing of all heresy because they wouldn't survive otherwise.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      ^This is known as the emporor has no clothes
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
    OP
    The total irony of his statement: he could write this out in the open on twitter and not be called a whore, get death threats, and essentially fear for his life.

    This, on the contrary, is what GamerGaters have done to multiple women of color, trans, etc who have spoken out about their treatment in the tech world. A personal friend of mine, who ran diversity initiatives at a particular tech company, had to have a security guard escort her to her car after work for several weeks after she posted some appalling statistics about minority representation in tech.

    This boy is leveraging his incredible privilege, pedigree, and protection to rail against a system that is causing him an infinitesimal slice of harm with almost no expected consequences for his words. The stakes for POC and what they've faced to raise a voice are far higher.

    White dudes, take heed: there's never been a more reasonable time to be an ally and champion for creating a healthier environment for POCs in your companies. Don't fuck this up.
    Aug 6, 20177
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      This sounds like some bullshit
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
      OP
      "Sounds" is different from "is." Prove me wrong.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      nope. sounds like because you have absolutely no proof
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
      OP
      Homework for you: ping women like Ana Medina and Nadia Gathers and Karla Monterroso and ask if they've ever been harassed by men on twitter, reddit, or elsewhere.

      Come back with your findings and we'll compare notes.
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Are you serious? Homework for you. Argue about anything on Twitter and or Reddit and see if you won't get harassed. This has nothing to do with being a woman
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Salesforce / MgmtShablamo
      OP
      Moving the goalposts here, aren't we?
      Aug 7, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      No being logical. you should try it
      Aug 7, 2017
  • New ChyP33
    But, to suggest that adding women to the mix increases diversity is to suggest that women are, on the whole, different from men. Isn't that just a sexist stereotype? It seems a hypocritical contradiction to me.

    Since all individuals are in reality different (whether a man or a woman), surely adding another man to the workforce contributes to diversity just as much as adding another woman?
    Aug 10, 20173
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Man this story has just shown the hypocrisy of it all. But SJWs don't listen to reason
      Aug 10, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      The narratives being garbage aside, adding women to a male only group reduces some competitiveness / conflict. They usually manage with a softer hand, and for many products, they bring a usefully different and valuable perspective.

      Having women on your team is not a bad idea because of their differences.

      I'm not sure what the ideal mix might be. Like, my general impression is that female only groups usually don't work as well. The level of drama escalates (but my knowledge there is mostly anecdotal from experiences of women who chose to start companies and mainly hire women)
      Aug 11, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      I agree, as a woman - too many women usually end up with lots of drama.
      Aug 11, 2017
  • New ChyP33
    I've worked in tech for 15 years and every single team I've been a member of has been majority men. I only worked with a couple of female coders in my whole working life. At the same time, I haven't observed any sexism or discrimination amongst male colleagues. Women are free to enter technology if they choose to, but simply don't. Is this a problem? Why should it be?
    Aug 10, 20173
    • New / EngElementary
      Because women must be given easy access to all things that confer status :P

      Although there are issues with the tech culture not fitting women usually, and we're considered the forward edge of progressivism.
      Aug 10, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng999
      Mostly because diversity has been proven to lead to better products.
      Now that you mention it, it doesn't really make sense to force women into cs.

      But at the least maybe we should prevent them from leaving
      Aug 10, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      Diversity has pros and cons like homogeny does, and there's also a question of problem space. Many spaces don't benefit much from it... Creative stuff does more often.

      The issue with retaining women past their CS degrees is that cultures at many companies were built in terms of what the men building them found natural... By men, for men.

      To really have women work smoothly and want to stay, you have to go beyond merit, you have to change the culture to optimize for different goals that don't assume that most of your workers are men.

      Getting the best out of women takes a different style of doing things.

      Cultural change in general is a complex project because usually, people don't fully understand how they built a successful culture.

      Google though... With AdWords still floating their boat with billions in profit... Can get away with stuff because most of what creates value for them is automated and not super dependent on the people (plus, they can keep doing their data driven iteration - the path of success without genius)

      Which is also to say that there are many paths to being an remaining good enough to remain in the game. Tech offers an interesting avenue for creating stable value.
      Aug 10, 2017
  • BMO Bvnq30
    He is a martyr, but thankfully people are waking up and the pendulum is swinging back.
    Aug 9, 20173
    • New / EngElementary
      But not necessarily in a good way. It's turning into an opposing ideologies issue again, without a real focus on data and practical measures... Or how to define right and wrong, which is the underlying problem in this argument... People using incompatible definitions of right and wrong.
      Aug 9, 2017
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      We should just go back to banning all politics at work. Not only politics that are right leaning
      Aug 9, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      The problem here is diversity initiatives, they have an inherent political quality to them.

      More importantly, the doc is a reaction to experiencing an indoctrination attempt by Google, designed to shape how employees think and behave.

      Some of the foundations of their systems are fair and some are emotionally and culturally biased.

      Although it really would be better if we could just connect on work for work and not bring our personal lives into it.

      -

      Systems should be built in well reasoned ways, "without 'any' emotional bias"... Not just addressing one kind of bias that may work against one protected group that is employing emotional influence to get people to give them what they want.

      Because at it's core, that is still an adversarial and primitive play.

      Everyone must believe that they are being treated fairly and transparently.
      Aug 9, 2017
  • Talkdesk / Otherpoop 💩
    I hope someone publishes the whole document online. It sounds like an interesting read. And without reading it, the rest of us can't really make any sort of informed comment.
    Aug 5, 20171
  • WRKSHP / Eng999
    My thoughts on this can basically be summarized in this paper, which I think does a great job of discussing the topic the author did, but in a much better way:
    http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~ychen2/professional/GenderBalanceInUCBerkeleyEECS.pdf
    Aug 6, 20170
  • New / Other520476
    I'm reading "The e-mail Larry Page should have written to James Damore" in The Economist. See for yourself. http://j.mp/2w82EMJ
    Aug 15, 20173
    • Microsoft / Engric_ta
      Don't you mean Pincai
      Aug 15, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      It's interesting but also dodgy.

      Unfortunately, this is where we run into the issue where it takes too much effort to answer something beyond a certain length unless you have plenty of time to dedicate to it.

      Especially if you want a properly researched and unreproachable response.
      Aug 15, 2017
    • New / EngElementary
      He means Sundar Pichai... CEO of Google.
      Aug 15, 2017
  • Google Noogler69
    This is the first I'm hearing about it
    Aug 5, 20173
    • Uber Sop
      Geez, you must be the last one.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Internet Brands / ProductIbbyliever
      Well, his SN is Noogler... He's new.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google Noogler69
      It seems a bit rich for you as non-Googlers to be making assumptions about how many people saw this. I think it went significantly more viral after it hit the news.
      Aug 6, 2017
  • Google Noogler69
    "Google is currently being investigated by the Department of Labor for its gender pay gap”

    This is actually not correct, the DoL is doing a routine audit and hasn't yet decided if Google's compensation practices are fair or not.
    Aug 5, 20172
    • Bluebot / OtherPerry Grin
      You're right being sued is not an investigation. It's also not an audit.
      gle.com/amp/s/kkkk://www.wired.com/story/google-department-of-labor-gender-pay-lawsuit/amp

      You must be one of the confused one the article talks about.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Google Noogler69
      They're being sued because the DoL is asking for a large amount of information that's expensive and burdensome to provide and Google didn't think it should have to provide it. If you read the article you linked, the judge actually ruled partially in Google's favor.
      Aug 5, 2017
  • New / MgmtCarocast
    The real discussion about the Google Manifesto is the gap on the salaries. Google should open the books and show it to the world.
    Aug 7, 20171
    • New / EngElementary
      I'd assume there are gender differences but Google has done an internal analysis.

      There are also practical negotiation complications from holding onto valuable talent that looks likely to run away.

      The market has its pros and cons. Without that flexibility, you either wouldn't be able to retain good talent or it would cost much more to do so as you paid everyone more.
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Allegion anonce
    I hope the original document's author publicly takes credit, so the discussion can move out into the open.

    How is the reaction inside Google?
    Aug 6, 20170
  • Microsoft / Engric_ta
    Aug 5, 20170
  • Onkore, Inc. / Eng
    async

    Onkore, Inc.Eng

    PRE
    aa
    BIO
    3 startups, one good, 2 not so good. a few large corps. gen X. moved to valley late 90s.
    asyncmore
    Aug 5, 20170
  • New / Eng
    fcktechiez

    NewEng

    BIO
    trolled you eh bud?
    fcktechiezmore
    I wanted to ask the same thing as OP
    Aug 5, 20170

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