For the engineers out there. it is less hassle to quit than complain to HR about anything. HR is never your friend.
- There are good managers and bad managers, good engineers and bad engineers, good HR and bad HR...your experience was with bad managers compounded by bad HR...who were probably hired by bad managers in the first place...I have worked in places where HR is good - they coach, maintain confidentiality, hold managers accountable...but then when I look at what's happening in the valley, I am not surprised with your experiences
- Accenture / Engar77598moreWhen companies are big, HR is basically like a helpdesk, this is why there are intranet sites and hotlines to report legal violations, harrasment, discrimination and for whistleblowing there are external websites.
If you are in a big company don't go to HR to escalate these issues, use the hotlines and sites.
At least at my company the process is clearly outlined.
Now also be mature: not always what you think is a big deal objectively is. At those hotlines and sites they will discretely investigate the matter, separately interview the accused part trying not to disclose they were accused and eventually either bring you and the accused part together to settle or take the proper corrective action and then inform you.
HR here is for other stuff like compensation and staffing and such...
- Workday / OtherxNZ1LpHR will just protect the manager and the company. If you have a grievance against your manager, HR will take the minimum legal measures of conflict resolution so they have defensibility. If you have a complaint about sexual harassment, HR will come to the rescue by asking questions that will determine whether you have a court case or not before deciding to take action.
Step #1 with dealing with HR is making sure you have a legally justifiable or truly damaging PR story.
Step #2 is recording instances and evidence
Step #3 is contacting HR with more power than they have in the situation.
If you don't have steps 1 and 2, you're better off never meeting anyone in HR in a work situation.
Not sure if this holds true everywhere but it certainly was in all my previous companies, so I treat it as factAug 30, 20178
- This is why blind exists. Uber got royally fked when one of their employees went on blind and posted that scathing diatribe about the culture (they lost their CEO). Blind is the social media equivalent of "punative damages" for companies that lack proper feedback mechanisms for improving their culture in important ways that negatively affect / harm their employees. You get a lot of whining with that too of course, but you also get the important things that need to be fixed and communicated to the masses. So the answer of what to do when you encounter a shitty culture or bad management is you should post on blind and get people's advice, get the information out, just like this. This site is rateyourprofessor.com meets LinkedIn.
- NewWLIO11HR is pretty useless generally speaking. Don't trust them with anything either.
They weren't really helpful in the issue I experienced the first week working in my last job but at least this employee got laid off as one of the first when push comes to shove. Business is business and friendship won't save you when it comes to cuts.
In my job before that I had to report my manager twice. He was terrified of me by then but then tried to get rid of me and PIP'd me. I make more money than him now for less work.
- Yahoo / EngWybw82HR is meant to help deal with the workforce ..although ideally they should help both the employees and the company..but if the goals of the employee and employer conflict with each other, the HR would take the employer's side in most cases. If you think you are right, blogging and sharing in networking sites like Facebook is the best way. Gone are the days when there was no platform for the work force to synchronize and share the issues. I am glad we live in an era where we have so many platforms now.
- Rael & LetsonDkvK47The key to creating a company that people feel energy and clarity-of-mind to work for is a department of people who care about empowering employees to feel energy and clarity-of-mind in working for them. What would you call them? What would they do?
- Marketo / MKTGBarneymoreI think there is a point of point of view missing from many of these replies that has helped me realize what HRBP really are. If I had to generalize it I'd say that HRBPs almost always take the opposing view to what ever you are there to talk to them about. As a manager the HRBP has always taken my employee's side and as an employee my HRBP has always taken my manager's side. They are arm chair psychologist and aren't really helpful in most situations other than how to follow the rules and tow the company line.
- HR exists to protect the company. 99 percent of the time taking your side harms the company. The one exception is certain cases of egregious sexual harassment, where taking the side of the harasser would bring huge damage to the company. But even in that situation, HR wants the victim gone.
- All I know is, Larry looked at the situation and said "whatever" and hired him. Several outsiders disagreed with his ousting. And the alleged victim did make sexual harassment claims then regretted he was fired.
And yet HR was probably right here due to the probable damage HP would have taken if Hurd was still on board.
- I have serious doubts about whether Uber was anywhere bad as Susan Fowler depicted.
- And do you also think Kleiner Perkin wasn't as bad as Ellen Pao is insinuating? https://www.thecut.com/2017/08/ellen-pao-silicon-valley-sexism-reset-excerpt.html
Bro - the valley is full of Roger Ailes of the tech world...and your HR is shitty because these guys hire HR and lawyers to protect themselves. Go work in some good companies and see the difference....
- So? She had a fair trial by a jury of her peers. She presented her case and it wasn't strong enough. Plenty of other plaintiffs in similar situations with similar juries have won. She lost fair and square.
A trial by a jury of one's peers is how we resolve disputes. She lost. Do you not think men (or whatever we're calling ~women these days) can be fair jurors?
- Oracle / PMTKSHUDGOmoreAh beans, the magical food - the more you eat, the more you toot.
Back to HR thread...
How many HR folks does it take to fix your office light bulb?
Answer: 20. One to put your call on hold another to tell your boss of your electricity overuse and 18 to travel to a conference to study about light bulbs.Sep 1, 20171
- GitHubFNIU74HR is one of the groups that seems to grow by promoting office managers and other ill qualified people for whatever reason. Just like everything there are qualified and very unqualified people in the field. I've had very mixed experiences myself. A lot of HR groups know nothing more than benefits.
- Uber / OpsVqOjdlWhat's the best practice then? Just leave the company or contact lawyer and save evidence before reporting anything?
- IntuitdagoochHR is really damage control with corporate well-being in mind. They're not your friend and never will be. They're there to defend the company, not you. Complaints, harassment, genuine issues? Might as well call 911 or the suicide hotline. At least you might get a good laugh out of them.
- PostmatesAEch14Conspiracy theory: someone in HR posted this to discourage engineers from complaining
- Amazon / PMAmholemoreIt's almost like there needs to be another organization that can balance the interests of workers against the interests of the company. Perhaps an org run by employees, that "join together"... 🤔
- @datadicks you seem to have been beaten down real bad by your HR..my brain cells are never preoccupied by HR, finance, ops, PM peeps...chill, dude! Solve your own problems rather than go running like a crying baby to HR...or your manager...or your lawyer...but def blog it if it's real bad...or maybe a manifesto?
- You don't know shit about me Ericsson dude. This whole post is about NOT "crying like a baby to HR" because they won't help you. Are you brain damaged and can't understand the original post and all the comments here? You may just have a lack of brain cells overall to have them preoccupied at all.
- TeslaprespHR is bullshit. I called out an exec in an all hands meeting. He asks how many new people in the room? Dozens maybe more raised their hands it was their first all hands. So when it came time to ask, I asked his name. Everyone laughed, and yes it wasn't super cool to do, but the only person who gave a crap was the HR person. Even the exec laughed about it for years on every all hands and always introduces himself now. HR person stopped me on the way out to say that wasn't appropriate; apparently no one agreed with this person.
- MicrosoftJd85f9Just look at the name HUMAN-RESOURCES
they're resources to do business and the resources happen to be HUMAN and "we" (the business) need to manage them.
- What if I told you half of what HR gets a bad rep for is doing what your hiring managers want us to do while maintaining the facade of the "nice guy". HR doesn't have independent authority. Employees typically don't know the number of private conversations HR has with managers or how many times we've stopped them from firing your ass for some illegal or bullshit reason.
- Ultimately, you should realize that HR doesn't have the ability to just terminate someone independent of a conversation that involves other people, namely the individual's supervisor. We are the often times the messenger in situations that are absolutely "not our call". Getting over the idea that HR has any measurable impact concerning who stays or goes seems to be a concept that a lot of employees struggle with.
As for your actual question, yes, there are plenty of managers out there who have been terminated for their lack of team skills. I've personally seen VPs be let go for not demonstrating effective leadership skills or causing general employee dissatisfaction. If you have a good executive team they'll pay attention to this stuff. If your executive team doesn't give a damn then they won't. HR can try to advise them to care. HRs opinion though, may or may not be considered.Sep 2, 20170
- I literally sat back and watched a friend committ suicide, women being sexually harassed, people being man handled, abusive speech, humiliated, fired, verbally abused, a person injured so bad on the job she could not work for 5 years, yet Microsoft fired her, all because of ONE manager. One manager that people went to HR about for years...and HR did NOTHING about it, except keep promoting that ass hole and firing anyone who complained about him....fuck that!
- Or...you are emotionally operating without all the data...typical.
I've had a couple of bad managers over the years. If I decided things were in a rut, I just moved teams or companies. Each time I moved I also made more money and equity: lemons -> lemonade.
If things are so "bad" for you then why don't you own it and move on to another team etc.?
- Glad you thought the conversation or the decision to "just move", was so easy. This manager did everything in his power to tie the hands of his employees so he could abuse them and then make it so that they could not move teams. Could they quit, sure but why should they have to give up their careers or dream job just because one prick is being protected by the corporation? The decisions are not always as easy as typing a response behind a keyboard. Real lives and real families and futures were involved.
- @Tipit frankly I don't believe your tale of woe as basically you're describing a torture dungeon. But I do believe that you're deeply unhappy and I offer this post respectfully to you based upon my personal experience. Good luck:
It's too over the top and as such sorta makes you bleed credibility. I have a relative that sounds like you. They hated their job and made it sound like a North Korean gulag. So he stayed until they whacked him after 5 years of his unremittingly dark sniveling. Then when he was unemployed he found new things to complain about. Lots of time for dark FB posts but oddly enough no effort to stop being a victim or making any significant personal changes.
The other thing is you are acting as someone who takes no personal responsibility whatsoever and is completely helpless. Yes it's as easy as typing on the keyboard.
As for it being hard to make a change...The hard part for you will be jettisoning all your drama and owning your own life. As for getting entangled in other co-workers dreams or whatever there is very little you can do. If you want to help them then tell them what I'm telling you. Specifically cut out the over the top rhetoric and own your own choices: stay, leave or find a way to align your own self improvement goals with business goals of your team and business unit.
- @tipit: Okay if you've got actual "facts" or proof go ahead post them here. In the absence of that all you've done is post your own psychotic ravings.
I didn't curse you I simply responded respectfully and candidly. I genuinely wanted to provide you with some constructive feedback. You responded by spewing crazy.
I'll try again. If you sound at work like you sound here, you're your own worst handicap. Hopefully yore just trolling here.
Anyway provide evidence of what you're complaining about or accept that you have zero credibility.
Maybe you should consider leveraging EAP or other mental health benefits...;-)
- Yep already played those Microsoft head games, they don't work. I owe you nothing. Again I don't give a shit if you belive me or not, I owe you nothing. The only crazy people are the ones that think that HR is here to protect you, they are not. Tipit out.
- Kaspersky LabHbzr45MSFT HR is really something. They offered a job to my girlfriend in HR once. When she checked on references in HR circles, she figured MSFT HRs were called "BCC lovers". If you're HR over there you always should put a bunch of people into BCC even when you respond to a confidential request of an employee. She said no thank you a bunch of times.Sep 13, 20171
- MicrosoftBeansAlthough @tipit sounds a bit off his/her rocker, I actually believe his account that started this as I've seen the same thing happen many times. It's surprising how many seemingly normal people don't stand up to workplace bullies--and often actually give cover to the bullies and prop them up. How do you think Hitler came to convince Germans to murder millions of their neighbors, friends and colleagues? Germans didn't all collectively go crazy. No, people often have a very very hard time opposing authority even when it's corrupt, illogical, unethical...or even downright evil. Companies don't have the institutions in place to counter the kind of group think that leads to this behavior.
- @Beans I respect your reply but there's the matter of degree. For example I've seen cry-bullies in corporations and they're very hard to deal with. But tipit's account sounds ridiculous to me especially at MSFT. It's sooo dramatic.
I suspect the reality is far simpler: either there's a bad manager involved, an IC or two that can't/won't accept feedback or a combination thereof.
Again if tipit is mature and rational why not just move on? The other weird thing to me is that tipit said they'd reported the situation already and was unhappy with the outcome. Is it not possible that the authorities couldn't find any material facts to support tipit's wild claims? At some point doesn't tipit have to own his/her own choices?
Finally why does everything these days have to end with a Germany circa 1938 example...? Really...? But since you went there...victims in 1938 Germany were literally physically trapped there. The only place Tipit circa 2017 is trapped is in his/her choice not to own their own destiny and either move on, report to company authorities, stay and improve or a combination of the above.Sep 4, 20171
- General Motors / EngDyno_DawgmoreI work for General Motors in Engineering. At our facility 'HR' is affectionately known as 'Help Rape'.
Only a fool takes concerns to HR; it is a career wrecking move.
Either toughen up and become immune, or quit and go elsewhere, but going to Help Rape is a sure way to screw your life.
- Slalom ConsultingqEje84At my last company, we had a black guy yelling and screaming how happy he was every single time he saw a news story of a white cop getting shot in the head. I reported it anonymous. 20 people heard. Hr gave him a slap on the wrist. Flip that role and if he was white it would have been a national news story.
- One good experience with HR over the years - was essentially documented out for continually disagreeing with idiot boss (tactfully pointing out his coding & design errors before they took down company, or fixing broke code which I hadn't realized he had written) and for protecting my team from his rants.
Said as much in exit interview.
HR followed up with my team.
Idiot boss was out the door within a month, as they all backed me up.
But in the engineering world, where many developers would rather talk to machines than people, we often self-select HR people that ain't great people people either
- I just dont get why they protect people for so long. They see the lawsuits, they hear the complaints, yet these assholes keep getting promoted and protected. Makes me ashamed for a company I admire.
- Usually cuz arseholes are good at politics, and HR insufficiently techsavvy to separate truth from bullshit, like in the case I mentioned, or too respectful of corporate self proclaimed heroes to act against anyone above their pay grade, even when their net effect on morale is negativeNov 13, 20170