After a successful onsite, the recruiter is trying to match me with teams. One of the managers I'd potentially be working with said I'd be level 4. Looked that up on levels.fyi and it seems like I'd have way more years of experience than most people at that level - I've been full time Software Engineering for 14 years (+internships, I had my first Sw Eng position more than 20 years ago), and been Senior or a Team Lead at my last few jobs - at my current one I'm on track to be a lead again in a few months. I look a lot younger than I am and don't list every job I've had so they might have misread my experience? The same person said I'd need to first reach L5 before I can be considered for a team lead or more of a people role, which is my goal. Taking an L4 tole would be a big step back in terms of responsibility, growth, and cash comp, though the stock comp seems to make up for it. Any chance I can negotiate the level they're starting me at? Or should I reapply when I'm actually a team lead again? I care more about the career side of things than the comp one. Also with these stock comp heavy offers, I assume nothing vests for a year... and given the cash comp might be a big drop, is there a way to bridge the gap financially? Some personal and medical stuff has depleted my savings.
TC || GTFO
They haven't made an offer so I don't know what TC would be, but they did give a level which is what I'm asking about.
your current TC.
Yes, you can always ask for a lower level (like L3 in your case).
/What I saw on levels.fyi made it sound like most people with more than a decade experience aren't at L4?
Caliber being Google vs. Not? It feels like a big step down because the title is a step down, and more importantly responsibilities are. It's a big drop to go from being close to leading a team (like, it essentially will happen when the hiring does; I've lead a team before) to being years away from even being considered for that. Maybe I misunderstand L4? How is it not a step down?
Google is notorious for down leveling. They like to start you at 4 and make you work for the promo to prove your skills. In essence, they are saying that experience outside G is not as valuable as experience within. If you have a competing L5 offer at a major competitor like FB, maybe. Otherwise I wouldn't bet on being able to negotiate the level.
I've got an onsite with FB coming up soon; should I stall Google until I figure out what level FB offers me?
Maybe Blind is the wrong place to have this attitude, but I care way less about TC than I do about the kind of work I do and my ability, most of all, to work with others. Mentoring is personally rewarding. Building and working with tight knit teams, helping to define process and help people overcome obstacles... I love that kind of thing. All the people side, more than pure tech side. I don't want to take a job where I have to consistently perform excellently in a purely technical role for several years before I could be considered for doing that kind of thing.
Level is 75% based on your interview perf. Also lead experience at small companies isn't apples2apples equivalent at big companies. Eg, I've seen cto/directors from from small companies come in just as first level team leads at G or FB.
I'm not expecting to be a lead when I get hired, but I'm expecting that to be in the foreseeable future, not something that will require years of consistent good performance reviews, etc, before I could then be considered for it. Like the way she explained it L4 is effectively 2 levels below team lead; you need to get to L5 and then can be considered for management track for the next promotion from there (presumably to team lead). Also it sounded like the hiring/compensation committees would be the ones reviewing feedback in detail, which the person I talked to wouldn't have done, so I'm curious how she'd know the level if it's mostly that performance?
Your recruiter does see the interview feedback and does talk with the HC. The recruiter doesn't have influence over the outcome or level, but they do see what the feedback is and what the most likely outcome is. I mean at the end of the day you can always say L5 or pass. Who knows what will happen. Google very rarely negotiates level, they prefer to be flexible on total comp instead. But rarely doesn't mean never, and who knows maybe it's a border line decision. Also if your interest is management you should just tell that to your recruiter and maybe you can interview for that. In general the plan I see for people who say "I'll swe for a while so I can move management" doesn't work that well. They're different skills, and you're not going to advance on the SWE track by trying to manage, nor get moved to the M track because you're a really good SWE.
I guess they have considered you for both l4 and l5 during the interview, and the feedback indicated you did not meet the bar for l5. For g, stocks vest every month about two months after your join date. For fb, I believe it’s every 3 months. No 1 yr cliff for either company.
TBH the interviews went fair-to-poor from my point of view. I was definitely not at the top of my game (mostly because of that godawful smoke cloud covering the bay area), and about half of them I had to do in a language I haven't used daily for many years. Would it be faster to get to L5 if I just wait a year until I've got a lot more team lead experience and can re-interview without the smoke cloud, or would I be better working that year at Google?
You're not going to get a higher level by having more experience on paper. Only by doing better during the interview.
I would suggest going for FB E5 if you get it instead of Google L4. I have 9 yoe and was downleveled to L4 with a L5 comp offer. Internally i see freshers with 1.5-2 yoe being promoted to L4. Doesn't make sense to get L4 with 14 years.
I just got off the phone with FB and they're looking to put me at L5. (Maybe L6 if I do really well). It's not really about TC for me - I'm more about overall responsibility and career trajectory. I'd rather be L5 with L4 comp than L4 with L5 comp.
They would most likely not budge on level, though you should try your best. And promotions are not the easiest at Google, I'm thinking about getting out myself in 2 years if I don't get promoted.
I think you made the mistake of going from non-FAANG to Google - e.g: the Zenith. FAANG companies don’t really respect experience from outside the loop unless you are a grad, so will always look to downlevel. So what can you do? I expect FB outcome to be the same, but I would try Amazon who don’t seem to play that game as much and respect outside experience more. Get L6 (Senior) there and then transfer in a year or 2 to Google at L5.
Amazon has a reputation of being a sort of trash place to work, and on the phone FB said they're targeting me at L5; I haven't had that interview yet though. Speaking of FAANG, is Netflix really in the same tier? I got some interest from them
Amazon is great - I work there now. Definitely not trash. Also yes Netflix is same tier - and likely higher TC.
OP what was your final TC and level with Google?
What's your level and TC currently?
I'm not at Google, so I don't know how the levels compare. I'm a Senior Software Engineer and on track to be a lead soon, so I'd say at least L5 (which is Senior SWE on the Google chart) . I usually work at small companies that don't have well defined levels and I've mostly reported to the CTO (though I don't atm because I couldn't get along with him and requested someone else) My comp is $175K cash + options. If I'm being optimistic the value of those options as they're vesting is about $30K/yr. The valuation has increased considerably since I've been at the company and they are definitely in the money as far as the IRS is concerned, but there isn't a public market so I can't turn them into cash easily.