DHH thread on Apple Card

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Nov 12, 2019 9 Comments

Disappointed at Apple. They seem to at least try to not be evil, but this is just sad. Don’t think I saw any apology from either them or GS. probably that’ll result in a lawsuit.

however what I wonder, lets say for arguments sake, the model was accurate and the results are discriminatory. there is no step in a typical software development life cycle to check for moral/ethical implications. i’ll be laughed out of the room for bringing this up as an SWE during project planning. this is happening all too fast - and lot of it is not questionable.
what would you do if you spotted something like this?

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TOP 9 Comments
  • D. E. Shaw & Co. WXia81
    So in all of the reporting so far, nobody has mentioned spouses’ relative incomes. They went into detail about filing taxes jointly (not relevant when applying for credit cards), credit scores (relevant but far from dominant factor), but nothing about the incomes, which to me seemed like trying to bury the lede. I don’t know DHH’s or Wozniak’s situations, and I have no idea whether this is what happened or not, but wouldn’t specifying vastly different incomes on the applications result in vastly different credit limits too? And if it did, would that be at all surprising?
    Nov 12, 2019 3
    • Dropbox / Eng p@nd@
      Credit cards ask for household income, not individual income.
      Nov 12, 2019
    • Amazon thule
      Was about to say, that's where they have issue: they report a shared income when applying to a credit card.
      Nov 12, 2019
  • Goldman Sachs maae11
    It's all BS. GS nor any bank will give access to gender or demographic information for credit models. Furthermore there are significant internal controls to ensure that there is no bias and on top of that the fed inspects the models themselves. Also, to top it off, historically females are better credit risks so dumb fucking idea to screw them over.
    Nov 12, 2019 1
    • BMO hPnJ57
      This is why banks have compliance departments. There's no way this was overlooked.
      Nov 12, 2019
  • Capital One QTer80
    ^ what BMO said. Existing utilization/ balances and payment behavior are important criteria in decisions.

    Issuers follow strict rules around what variables cannot be used which includes things like gender, race, age etc.
    Nov 12, 2019 1
    • BMO hPnJ57
      Yeah. Honestly I would be really surprised if Goldman screwed this up.
      Nov 12, 2019
  • OpenTable Meliodas
    Moral/ethical considerations, how about start with legal considerations? Unlawful models are still unlawful regardless of accuracy.
    Nov 12, 2019 0

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