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You cannot make this up…
Hello, I am on a DS track and with the ever changing landscape in DS and lot of red taping in the role. It is still manageable to get offers but I am kind of confused with 2 job families. I am happy with my job family and like doing it but the only thing which makes me wonder to PM role is because of Pay and work. Pay of PM in senior roles are proportional to SWEs and work they do is not measurable so ponzy scheme like attending meeting, slides , little bit of jira and Writing docs. I think I can handle all of the BS. Real workload I feel is deliverables like producing code and stuff. Also, if one has to jump to any other company on any technical role. One has to go through rigorous practice so that is like a grunt work. Whereas PM interviews are mostly behavioural and previous experience based which I think in my opinion easier for me. One needs to BS and get smoother in talking and convincing. Lastly, PMs are enjoying very good salaries for the work they do. That’s why I am wondering should I try to break the wall and enter PM and is it worth it or not. PM are limelight hungry and my personality is kind of like appreciation and visibility too. I feel like my nature exactly fits what PM role demands. Still gathering your thoughts if grass is really greener on the other side or not? Also, I have seen people switching from Pm to DS and DS to PM. I am kind of confused where is the inflow greater PS: if DS pay was equivalent to PM then I wouldn’t have changed. It’s all about 💰 Most of the DS pay is stagnant around 350K for 6-7 yoe whereas for equivalent PM role it would be around 650-750k ———————————————————————- Edit-1 For all the grunt work I am doing. All the A/B test I am running for the product. I feel that I am more competent to shape the direction of the product. Not to mention, I can very well lead a healthy discussion with VPs , directors and even the non-tech audience to share the insight as well as shape the direction of strategy. What I don’t like is PM getting all the information from me takes all the credit and without being informed shares all these insights which I worked on to VPs and directors. When difficult questions comes they reach out me for a possible explanation. At this point, I feel that PM doesn’t take responsibility and ownership. Let’s say if there is any error in analysis. They are the first one to blame me for the error but if everything works well they take all the credit. How is this fair? On top of that they are paid twice as me. ——————————————————————— Edit-2: Not all PMs are bad and superficial. Most good PMs I have seen comes from technical background. They have been SWEs or DS in the past Most shittiest PM comes right after MBA school and consulting companies like McKinsey/BCG/Bain where they are trained only how to speak and sell. They have least technical depth to comment on a product. Unfortunately, these folks were better off in consulting but are infiltrating in Tech and these consulting guys have lobbying mentality. “Monkey see monkey do” mindset where they hire people like them and block people from other backgrounds to be a PM. Stop hiring consulting folks in PM role. #product #datascience #career #advice
Grass is greener on the other side since you’re fertilizing it with BS PM owns the product vision. That’s the biggest thing you missed. What to prioritize and how to get the work done by the team. Being an ex-EM (now switched back to IC) working with ICs is the most difficult job in the industry since majority of them think like you.. that only real deliverable is code/ML models etc and no one else is really contributing to a product
“Product vision” is BS Most PMs I’ve worked with just regurgitate whatever Eng and DS has to say, they have never offered any real vision
I have this same question and love to hear from PMs what the job is really like. What are the downsides to making that much money? It feels like DS career growth is stagnant. The only way to move up it to become extremely technical or promotion to manager. It seems to me there are more job openings for PM than DS too.
PMs will get a little mad at you for the language you used. It's a bit blunt but it's not untrue. They would missing as aspect here: compared to being an engineer, yes, all your points are valid. My partner gets paid more than I do for doing less work, and less complicated work, where the hardest part is the fun part (taking something as great as vision and creating harmony between ideas and objectives). I'm an engineer who works longer hours, have to be on the cutting edge of research and tools due to my domain, and also handles staff engineering duties. The PM I work with, unlike my partner, who works genuinely, does all those thing OP said: pretending to organize me as an engineer while just being an obstacle that gets paid more the more they whip me to do to work and understand less. I'm a senior engineer who's a tech lead too.
PMs will get mad about what OP said, but it’s it true for many PMs? Would your partner agree that they do less and easier work than you? Could you do their job, or do you not have the skills for PM?
I wouldn't say it's true for most PMs- some get paid adequately. It's just the way it's phrased you can't help but blame OP for making a wrong career choice and then looking down on the people who chose it because it's easier for them. It's hard to read despite being fairly accurate from the perspective of most engineers.
Yeah, please don't become a PM with this kind of attitude. Thanks, your x-functional team
What kind of attitude should they have?
If OP didn't get thrown under the bus for the knowledge the PM took from them without any introspection after getting the credit for all the times nothing is wrong is what makes OP have this attitude. I personally wouldn't mind working with a DS like that. They just want fairness.
While there is some truth in this post, there are a ton of fallacies, but I don’t blame OP. There are a ton of shitty PMs out there who unfortunately drive the narrative of “PMs don’t do anything and get paid more than me”. The truths: - anyone with a good head on their shoulders and communication skills can be a PM (although there are many eng/ds who think they have good comm skills and don’t. I have a feeling OP is one of them) - As a PM, I’ll be the first to say we probably do get overpaid at FAANG relative to eng/ds The fallacies: - The real deliverables aren’t solely producing code. They are delivering products that align with the vision and strategy of the company. The code is the car, and if you’re driving on a road off of a cliff, then the car doesn’t matter. - Simply talking to a VP or two will more likely than not lead to that cliff dive. - Any PM who doesn’t attempt to divert credit to the team, or have/learn the technical or domain expertise, or simply acts as a hinderance as opposed to an uninhibitor, is a bad PM - 6 yoe, making 650k is extremely rare. You’re talking L7, where you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone with less than 10-15 yoe - the interview process for PMs blows. That’s why exponent and product alliance can justify charging $500 for their courses. Behavioral interviews for PMs has shifted to a very small aspect of the process. If you’re motivation to be a PM is due to the attributes you’ve listed, then you’re just going to contribute to the stereotype that most PMs suck
What do you mean by interview process for PM blows? A little bit detail would help.
It's a case study grind fest. Most FANG + hot companies adopted a process relying on product design and execution/metric exercises. With the little amount of time in the interview and generally very open-ended/high-level prompts and no data/feedback at hand, PM candidates spend weeks prepping frameworks and doing mock interviews to learn how to tackle the interviews. It blows because it is only tangential to the real PM job and requires a considerable time investment to build out the interviewing skill. It's the PM version of leetcoding. There are companies that, in some cases, provide good guidance material for $$$ and imho this became a pre-requisite to spend moolah on in order to sway the odds.
Go read Inspired by Marty Cagan. You can probably get through it in a weekend. It does a good job explaining what PMs do. Based on what you wrote I think you might be misunderstanding the role and the amount of work required to be good at it.
That’s what PM does. Self branding and writing books. Then junior PM licks senior PM