For all those asking for advice whether to choose MSFT vs Amzn

Sep 18, 2020 793 Comments

Everyone compares Microsoft refreshers to other FAANG refreshers. That's unfair. I may be on the upper end of the spectrum at msft, but I am not a rock star. I consistently get 140% rewards, where 100% is target and 200% is max. If you work hard, 140 is guaranteed at MSFT, albeit a bad manager.

Here are the reasons why msft refreshers seem like πŸ₯œ, but it's not the case.

Reason 1: MSFT base pays are much higher than Amazon and other FAANG counterparts. I am at L66 and my base is 240K. I've heard FB comes close, but somewhere around 220K.
Amzn maxes out at 160K for my level. This accounts for almost 80-100K cash difference. Go buy amzn stock with this if you really think amzn is going to grow like nuts.

Reason 2: higher cash bonus. This year, I got a cash bonus of 62K. Amzn has no cash bonus. Fb and Google is around half this number for e6. Again, more cash go buy more stocks.

Reason 3: our stock refreshers once you reach level 65 and above are decent. I got refreshers of 100k at L66. My friends get somewhere around 175K at L67.

This adds up to total comp of 400K with stellar stock growth that appreciates annual comp to close to 500K.

Reason 4: our MS poll (an annual internal poll) might be useless for many years, but I've been in this company for the past decade and when all employees cry about something, they end up taking care of us. Back in 2011, all our base pays got a 20% bump to adjust to market conditions. Back in 2018, all of us got 80-100K in special stock award- which has now doubled to 200k.

Reason 5: if you have a family of 3, 2 of whom you claim as dependents, amzn charges 3k per year per dependent for health insurance - 6K. Total net value of msft benefits including 401k match, espp, stay fit and health benefits adds up to 20K per year.

Only F/G can beat MSFT in all these regards and still make sense for someone to leave us. For me personally, the only way I will go to Amazon is if they offer me more than 25% bump in TC at 400k. Otherwise, it's not worth it.

Lastly, unlike amzn and f, there is no pip culture. We do give 0 rewards and low rating for poor performers and it's not a good place to be because hr would pip you when they do the routine lay off once in a few years( last time in 2015). However, if you are on a visa(like me), I can be stress free about job security.

The main difference I see between msft and amzn is that in msft, you as an individual have control of how you want to take your career forward in lower levels. In Amazon, you don't. You are forced to do what the manager thinks is right for you.

I do agree our pay is low for L61,62,63 bands and that's where we lose folks to amzn. But the incentive for you guys is to speed through those levels and prove your worth to reach 65 asap. It can be done within 6 years if you have good work ethics in a team like azure or o365.

Update:.
I forgot to mention 1 last point:

Amzn fixes your target compensation. If you earn more due to stock growth, you get no refreshers. They do not allow their employees to enjoy the fruits of their stock doing well..

In Microsoft, people who were Principal and partner 5 years back are multi millionaires now. I personally know a couple who received 400K SSA in 2016 at level 67, whose comp is now over a million.

Oh that reminds me. After 67, you are eligible for something called DCP - deferred compensation plan where you defer your base and bonus to a later time in retirement to reduce your taxes now.

comments

Want to comment? LOG IN or SIGN UP
TOP 793 Comments
  • This is like the rich telling the poor, just try harder and you will have more money. It’s no secret that pay at 66+ at Msft is comparable to FANG. It’s the levels below that struggle and I don’t use that word lightly. Majority of the company is below 66.
    L64 at 205K here.
    Sep 18, 2020 25
    • New / IT
      datagame

      New IT

      datagame
      @godzilla no I don't mind at all.. just wanted to know if u most of the people working in FAANG are from Top 15 schools
      Sep 19, 2020
    • @godzilla, that’s a great offer. Congrats.
      Sep 19, 2020
  • Amazon
    fpf3o0gvws

    Go to company page Amazon

    fpf3o0gvws
    "The main difference I see between msft and amzn is that in msft, you as an individual have control of how you want to take your career forward in lower levels. In Amazon, you don't. You are forced to do what the manager thinks is right for you."

    Where did you hear this? Because its not true in the slightest unless its a vindictive manager who put someone on dev list to force them to stay on the team (which is not common, regardless what you think Blind says). Its actually easier to grow at the lower levels than L8+ due to VP influence and you have to be making a very big global impact to be seeing growth at sr mgr and above.
    Sep 18, 2020 12
    • Agree πŸ’― with OP. I am a L66 manager at Microsoft. Not only are his numbers correct but I have to say that my priorities for my team are 1) Your Health and Safety, 2) Family, and 3) Work.

      It sometimes comes at the detriment of productivity but it creates a culture of happiness among employees.

      With that said, I still decided to leave MSFT. For me, it was due to my desire for continual accelerated career growth.Most people on my shoes would stay put knowing that they could get a minimum of 400k a year. Oh well, yolo!
      Sep 19, 2020
    • @kjt84jfi where did you go from 66?
      Sep 19, 2020
  • Stripe
    somecsdude

    Go to company page Stripe

    somecsdude
    Joining MS after graduation is the 2nd worst professional decision I made. Spending too long there is the 1st.

    There are quite many companies paying 600k+ with stock appreciation for L66 equivalents, not just F/G
    Sep 18, 2020 16
    • Google
      kplT85

      Go to company page Google

      kplT85
      MS cool in early 90s and early 2000's? LMAO in what circles? These were the worst times with MS being in full predator mode against everyone else. It wasn't cool. Tech was beginning to take off and it was cool, there were not many alternatives and no FAANG bubble yet
      Sep 19, 2020
    • Amazon / Eng
      NbzQ52

      Go to company page Amazon Eng

      NbzQ52
      Whats the first worst professional mistake you made?
      Sep 19, 2020
  • Amazon
    fakele

    Go to company page Amazon

    fakele
    Okay, now that I have some time in hand here is my - 2 cents worth - opinion. Let's start with little background - I was at Microsoft for over a decade, worked across Office and Azure, and obviously been here long enough to see the culture shift(s). I recently moved to Amazon from L65 SDE to L7 PE. .

    1. Pay: MSFT TC ~250k - AMZN TC: ~600k. Enough said.

    2. Cash bonus - Yes. MSFT wins!

    3. Stock - well, well. Let's just be honest and accept that MSFT doesn't come anywhere near stock grants, or appreciation of AMZN. Both MSFT and AMZN have a strict curve assigned to how rewards are granted. If you're not top tier, your refreshers are shit. There is a reason why there are so many MSFT peanuts refresher threads. AMZN has great refreshers for people in top tier. Someone commented on other thread if they've seen anyone at AMZN who've been for over 15-20 years, the answer is yes, and a shit load of them. And these are the people who're well taken care of and are busy building great things.

    4. MS Poll - This is a load of bull crap. MS poll is a farce of a process to give engineers the impression that leadership is interested in what you think. But in reality, it is just another tool that is used to fit the bell curve for managers. There is so much appeasement and toxicity built around this poll across the company, it is revolting. AMZN has connections - very similar to MS Poll - but happens round the year. It is very focused, and takes into account many factors in how the questions are created to derive day-by-day insights into team/management/and to a very small extent organization's effectiveness.

    5. Benefits - No doubt MSFT exceeds in benefits hands down. Microsoft provides Blue Cross Heritage Plus plan, and every other company around seattle is on Heritage plan. Which means if you have significant health expenses, Microsoft will save you about 6k (lower deductible - 6500 vs 9000, higher HSA contribution, etc.).
    Add ESPP, StayFit, and additional 2%, 401k match, and you're kind of looking at ballpark of 15-20k benefit, depending on your base salary.

    6. PIP culture - Well, a great thing about being L7 IC is that you get to participate in talent discussions first hand. I will agree there is pip, but at least in my org's director level (org of ~250, >100 engineers) there is no strict quota to fill. There is inclination towards finding those who're not meeting the bar, and help them grow, or manage out. Contrast this to MSFT, where there isn't a focused program to help people grow. Managers just ignore such engineers and hope they'd leave soon enough. This leads to degraded team performance, dissatisfaction, and lack of trust. At Amazon, at least there is a bias towards making the team better and giving all the right opportunities.

    7. Individual control on career vs Directed career - Well, I hate to break it to you, but Amazon is very decentralized in terms of what gets built and who gets to drive it. Amazon has a bias towards action, whereas Microsoft has bias towards consensus. Both are appropriate to the kind of culture the companies have, but given these biases ICs at all levels get more freedom to work on what they want and deliver it. My decision to move, was in part based on such anecdotes from people i knew who moved to AMZN at various SDE levels. In fact at AMZN ICs can say no to a manager and still deliver what they want and get rewarded for it, whereas at MSFT this will be a career suicide.

    Allow me to call out a few things OP conveniently ignored while doing this comparison:
    a. Politics - The consensus building at MSFT comes at the price of highly politicized environment. The higher you go, the more politically entrenched you get. The fight across Office and Azure on ownership and revenue sharing would be hilarious, if people's careers didn't go up in flames with it.
    b. Bias - Managers are f***** biased and prejudiced - and to overcorrect it, the forced diversity initiatives is now going to make sure a certain section of engineers are affected unfairly.
    c. Customer obsession - At microsoft everyone really likes to throw around how customer obsessed they are, and all, but you've got to see that obsession first hand at amazon. The practice of anecdotal feedback and ignoring it is rampant at MSFT. Contrast that with Amazon, where the driving principle is that if anecdote doesn't agree with data, then there's something wrong in measurement. There is such a passion to solve a customer's problem, at times it feels unreal. If you truly like to work for your customers, Msft is not the place for it.
    d. Building great things - MSFT is pretty crap on innovation as organizationally we discourage risk taking. At AMZN risk taking is heavily encouraged, and the concept of smaller fast moving teams allows them to try out newer ideas quickly and build in the spirit of fail fast, which has resulted in so many new innovations from AMZN compared to how MSFT has been trailing in almost all areas.
    e. Scope - At AMZN levels come with exponential scope. Senior engineers are like L65s at MSFT, and drive large product/platforms. PEs are - and it still feels surreal to me - considered "unicorns from heaven" (as one of the SDE2s commented recently in my team) - and the scope and responsibility a PE commands, is mind blowing. There is an avg. 1 PE for >75 engineers. I am a single PE for over 100 engineers. As you grow higher, the scope, responsibility and comp all go through the roof.

    To close - This was a great move for me, and though I carry over great memories and relationships from my time at MS, if I had to do over, I'd not be stuck there for so long.
    To each their own.
    Sep 18, 2020 18
    • Amazon
      fakele

      Go to company page Amazon

      fakele
      @datagame about 8yr.

      @ofajfn I’m not sure what to make of your comment here, and other borderline condescending ones that you’ve been replying to others who didn’t agree with you, and the dm you sent to me!

      @amsou911 and others, I’m happy to answer any questions if you’re looking to move. My immediate team has openings across all bands and we’re building some cool stuff!
      Sep 19, 2020
    • @fakele - I mean there's nothing much to make of it. Take it with face value. I have posted my opinions and you presented yours with your pov. Isn't one of the leadership principles in Amazon disagree and commit? 😁 That's what I did because I've lost the steam in replying to hundreds of folks. But I've heard that cracking L7 is not easy, so kudos to that. Some day, I might try to interview for an L7 role just to see if I can significantly increase my comp.
      Sep 20, 2020
  • Facebook
    zuckling

    Go to company page Facebook

    PRE
    Apple, Google
    zuckling
    Im glad your happy at MSFT. It was a great place to work and I learnt a lot when I was there. I miss the WLB for sure πŸ˜€πŸ˜€

    But to clarify FB at E6 does pay much better, I am 240k base, received 300k refresher, 62k cash and my TC is 730k. These are very standard numbers for E6/M1s at Facebook and nothing out of the ordinary at all. Again no disrespect to MSFT but i do want to make sure folks reading this have the correct information.
    Sep 18, 2020 23
    • That’s not a β€œrefresher” that’s a stock award. A refresher is what you get if your company has a single sign-on grant with no annual awards (like most startups).

      Zuckling if base stock award is 220k and base bonus is 20%, your paper comp for a given year is $508. Your cash comp is higher because of appreciation and since you’ve been a strong performer. But let’s not compare apples to oranges (especially if apples to apples still looks pretty good) πŸ€·πŸ»β€β™‚οΈ
      Sep 19, 2020
    • Yeah, standard E6 MA pay is 450k-500K and that would be 600K with stock appreciation. 700 and above for E6 is definitely not the standard.
      Sep 19, 2020