Everyone compares Microsoft refreshers to other FAANG refreshers. That's unfair. I may be on the upper end of the spectrum at msft, but I am not a rock star. I consistently get 140% rewards, where 100% is target and 200% is max. If you work hard, 140 is guaranteed at MSFT, albeit a bad manager. Here are the reasons why msft refreshers seem like 🥜, but it's not the case. Reason 1: MSFT base pays are much higher than Amazon and other FAANG counterparts. I am at L66 and my base is 240K. I've heard FB comes close, but somewhere around 220K. Amzn maxes out at 160K for my level. This accounts for almost 80-100K cash difference. Go buy amzn stock with this if you really think amzn is going to grow like nuts. Reason 2: higher cash bonus. This year, I got a cash bonus of 62K. Amzn has no cash bonus. Fb and Google is around half this number for e6. Again, more cash go buy more stocks. Reason 3: our stock refreshers once you reach level 65 and above are decent. I got refreshers of 100k at L66. My friends get somewhere around 175K at L67. This adds up to total comp of 400K with stellar stock growth that appreciates annual comp to close to 500K. Reason 4: our MS poll (an annual internal poll) might be useless for many years, but I've been in this company for the past decade and when all employees cry about something, they end up taking care of us. Back in 2011, all our base pays got a 20% bump to adjust to market conditions. Back in 2018, all of us got 80-100K in special stock award- which has now doubled to 200k. Reason 5: if you have a family of 3, 2 of whom you claim as dependents, amzn charges 3k per year per dependent for health insurance - 6K. Total net value of msft benefits including 401k match, espp, stay fit and health benefits adds up to 20K per year. Only F/G can beat MSFT in all these regards and still make sense for someone to leave us. For me personally, the only way I will go to Amazon is if they offer me more than 25% bump in TC at 400k. Otherwise, it's not worth it. Lastly, unlike amzn and f, there is no pip culture. We do give 0 rewards and low rating for poor performers and it's not a good place to be because hr would pip you when they do the routine lay off once in a few years( last time in 2015). However, if you are on a visa(like me), I can be stress free about job security. The main difference I see between msft and amzn is that in msft, you as an individual have control of how you want to take your career forward in lower levels. In Amazon, you don't. You are forced to do what the manager thinks is right for you. I do agree our pay is low for L61,62,63 bands and that's where we lose folks to amzn. But the incentive for you guys is to speed through those levels and prove your worth to reach 65 asap. It can be done within 6 years if you have good work ethics in a team like azure or o365. Update:. I forgot to mention 1 last point: Amzn fixes your target compensation. If you earn more due to stock growth, you get no refreshers. They do not allow their employees to enjoy the fruits of their stock doing well.. In Microsoft, people who were Principal and partner 5 years back are multi millionaires now. I personally know a couple who received 400K SSA in 2016 at level 67, whose comp is now over a million. Oh that reminds me. After 67, you are eligible for something called DCP - deferred compensation plan where you defer your base and bonus to a later time in retirement to reduce your taxes now.
"The main difference I see between msft and amzn is that in msft, you as an individual have control of how you want to take your career forward in lower levels. In Amazon, you don't. You are forced to do what the manager thinks is right for you." Where did you hear this? Because its not true in the slightest unless its a vindictive manager who put someone on dev list to force them to stay on the team (which is not common, regardless what you think Blind says). Its actually easier to grow at the lower levels than L8+ due to VP influence and you have to be making a very big global impact to be seeing growth at sr mgr and above.
I've noticed several examples. Let me state one: My colleague had a very tough personal situation and he was allowed to take it slow for a year or so in these circumstances. My manager friends at Amazon say that's not possible there. They wait for a max of 2 months or so for you to get back to high performance, else you are on dev list. You might be lucky in that you don't face personal challenges outside of work, but life is very unpredictable and Amazon doesn't give the flexibility to handle these unpredictable times imo.
Amazon is full of vindictive managers.
This is great from a refresher target above L65 but I have an offer from Microsoft Teams vs Amazon AWS at L62 and honestly I have some hesitation due to Amazon's bad reputation but the work itself seems very interesting compared with Microsoft. The tech stack is open source and non proprietary so more transferrable skills if I want to move to another company. Also the location is different. Amazon is in the US (will be on a visa) while Microsoft is in Canada (no need for visa). Coming in at lower levels with no family or kids is the wlb hit that hard at Amazon?
Yes it's your thread that made me post this. Picking canada vs usa is a bigger discussion and I think that should drive your decision rather than the company. Specially if you are going to come on a h1b.
Also, c# vs java is not a big difference. If you said c# vs c or verilog I can see how the trajectory can vary. But any high level language shouldn't matter. They are easily transferable.
The 6 years that you talked about is way too much to earn less right ? Fb or amazon stock appreciation plus the pay would easily win here. I honestly feel jump ship to msft at level 66 or above
You definitely do not consistently go from 60/61 to 65 in 6 years with some good work ethic, that’s Principal PM/Eng. It’s certainly more common on that side than business and marketing side at Microsoft but that’s a wild claim to make.
Sure. I am only talking about sde here
It very uncommon for people to go from 60 to 65 in 6 years. Let’s just leave it at that.
OP, yoe?
11
How many years in Redmond ?
Joining MS after graduation is the 2nd worst professional decision I made. Spending too long there is the 1st. There are quite many companies paying 600k+ with stock appreciation for L66 equivalents, not just F/G
I am not claiming there aren't better places. All I am saying is know what you are getting into. Specially if you leave msft for amzn without knowing what kind of a person you are
I did left for amzn and definitely a critical move for my career.
This is like the rich telling the poor, just try harder and you will have more money. It’s no secret that pay at 66+ at Msft is comparable to FANG. It’s the levels below that struggle and I don’t use that word lightly. Majority of the company is below 66. L64 at 205K here.
That's definitely low. My colleague at 64 makes 290. Which team are you in? Move teams
I am sorry but what would moving teams do? It’s always a lateral hire with same comp. I am in Azure compute. Have been at MSFT since the start of my career. And believe you me, this is the pay for majority of us who have stuck around with the company.
It really depends on a team and a manager. Based on my experience, 61 to 65 in 6 years and consistent 140% rewards is exceptional. Maybe if you work on a very impactful project, have good relationships with your manager and skip and your manager is good at politics, then it is possible. Also, it is incorrect that you have full control over your career: it depends on the team (how impactful the team’s projects), the manager and the skip. You can work hard, but your area could be not that impactful from the business perspective or your manager/skip could decide that a promotion should take 3-4 years regardless of your performance. You can reinterview and change the team, but it will reset your promotion progress. Any reorg will reset it too.
It’s not only about comp. make sure you enjoy the work and decide which culture matters. If the stock goes down, where would you want to work?
Agreed
And you are betting on msft to go down?