Software Engineering Career
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L4 Google -> 45 interviews, 5 offers, AMA
India
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If a new tech city is built in India ground up with most of the amenities found in a US City. Would you consider moving?
Tech Industry
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BREAKING: Internal sources confirm another round of layoffs just hit emails at Tesla. For real.
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What happens when most of your team is Indian?
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The man I love hates me because I’m Vietnamese
I'm an E6 that has no problem with titles. I've got a fairly common E6 for my YoE (about 8-9 YoE) and TC at about 550-600k(yeah it keeps dropping) for a top tier Bay area tech company (basically Goog, Netflix, Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, Twitter etc pays about that much and you can find significant portion of Staff engs starting their YoE around mine) Anyhow, Amazon recruiters are keep asking me for Sr SDE roles. Whenever I ask them about principal sde roles they all ghost me. So far I've only got contacted with 1 Sr EM who explained me why i wouldn't be a good fit for his team as a PE since their team is looking for a specialist. Amazon L6(Sr SDE) is like E5.5 literally. Comp isn't as high as E6, responsibilities are also not as much as E6. It also seems like there's a big gap that Principal Engs need to have specialization, where for FB/Meta you don't. Now I find it hard to believe that a place like Amazon isn't even considering me for Principal SDE when they're known for PIPing hard. I thought, worst case they realize I'm not producing the expected outcome 6-12 months later and PIP me. But it's not the case. I also realized that Amazon's pay structure is a bit weird. In a way that: 3 YoEs can get L5 offer paying them 450k Then they expect 10 YoE to accept L6 and only paying them 550k This shows to me that Amazon isn't really looking for experienced SWEs since the reward isn't high. I do believe that if Amazon believes it needs people like me (who is a high performing L6 but not L7 yet) then Amazon could split either L6 into two or L7 into two like how Uber does with their L5A and L5B and pay that role 650-850k. And yes Amazon should pay more than other companies because your WLB and perks are worse. I'm writing this for 2 purposes: 1) Maybe some HR at Amazon or VP could read and take action. 2) Would like to hear EMs/Director's opinion on whether they are hiring Principal or L6 engs and struggling with that.
10 YOE and you want 650-850k. You realize how redic that sounds. Go to levels.fyi and lookup compatibles. Amazon leadership often jokes they want missionaries not mercenaries
I bet the Amazon leadership jokes, a lot.
What’s a mercenary position? 🧐
So I generally don't follow levelling across industries other than cursory look at levels-fyi. I'm a newly promoted L7 IC in Amazon, and across my time here I've seen two categories of PEs: Some highly tenured folks having expertise in broad areas (say database, security ...), or internally promoted folks who have been in their orgs for ages (it's much different now where promotion criteria is better defined allowing for more internal promotions). If I look at your profile, you don't fit into either of the areas. You may be highly skilled, but there is a lack of datapoint for EMs/BRs and the cost of mistake is high given L7 scope can be vast in Amazon (there was a time when massive orgs in retail side would have a single PE). Maybe the right idea is as you suggested to have a level in between. I think this works well for lateral hires, but becomes yet another step for people going through internal promotions.
Yeah that i agree. It seems it's too hard to meet with Amazon's internal Principal SDE leveling as an external candidate. E6 at FB (or bay area tech companies) would usually mean that you're leading a whole team and influencing several teams and sometimes a whole org. Which does sound like that's what PE does at Amazon but we do this at FB without having deep specialization in that area. This is where Amazon Principal SDE differs. That makes me think that Amazon doesn't really care about other company levelling and aligning with industry standard levels. You can do that when you're not struggling to hire. And therefore i asked my question, if Amazon is truly struggling to hire experienced SDEs.
If I were to guess your knowledge is more broader than deeper for a PE. I have seen external PE hires to only be exclusively depth PEs who are domain experts (embedded, machine level, Security, NLP, etc). There are some L6 SDEs on their path to L7 who probably do work similar to you. You are right, between L6 and L7 (at least for a few of the technical job roles! There is a big gulf and it is an issue that is very pronounced. Amazon always optimizes for numbers vs quality - needs mid level mostly vs higher tenure / experienced engrs.
The people is know that got L7 at Amazon were 15+ YOE. Your 8.5 YOE means you're half way there.
Amazon PE is expected to lead 100 engineers and generally reports to Director. Do you lead 100 engineers? If not, you are a high Sr, not PE.
That's something i found conflicting. Some people just say it's 15+. Based on my understanding that really depends on the team. Right now i influence (not lead) around 40 engs. Lead about 8-15 of them (depending on the workload etc) However please focus on the compensation number again. Does it make sense for Amazon's case that they're only offering me 550k salary as a "high functioning Sr SWE" when a L5 with 3 YoE makes 450k? That's where the issue is.
I hear what you are saying, but having worked with several PEs in Amazon and Sr. SDEs who have gone from Amazon to Facebook E6, I think the scope is larger for Amazon PE. As an example, my current org of 300+ engineers has 2 PEs. The Amazon wide recommendation is to have a ratio of 1% PEs - so I would doubt any org has PEs lead 15 engineers. (Happy to verify orgs for you if you would like to DM me). As for comp, Amazon is known to target “mid-market”. In the past years, Amazon has relied upon stock growth to ensure the comp is competitive.
Recruiters are ghosting because L7 hiring is handled by a different recruiting team and I don’t think other recruiters are incentivized to continue talking to you if you are not going to help meet their recruiting numbers.
I would like to tell you that I felt quite the opposite. I have PhD + 8YOE, I have interviewed at FB and Amazon in Tel Aviv (Israel), I got E5 at FB and L6 at Amazon, FB proposed to pay me 315k TC (non including the refresher, if I take a refresher of 100k per year it is equivalent to 350k average TC over 4 years) while Amazon proposed me TC of 420k. I told FB that E6 at FB earn much much more than E5, and they should be able to meet in the middle, and they refused. As an example, max RSU for FB E5 in Israel is 300k, while for E6 it is 750k (In israel, we get much less RSU than in the US). And they are not able to meet in the middle, same story with another friend. Now I have joined Amazon that have been more generous
They gave up on hiring L6+. Also L5+. Now basically a horde of L4.
No. Don’t fall for l6 as e6. I landed amzn l7 as e6 at 9yoe(didn’t end up taking the offer). Most e6 should be able to.
Bar for e6 has really fallen that is true. So there is that.
Did you get Uber L6 or L7 ?
Amazon does want you, but not at the level and price you expect. Based on your own description (scope and responsibilities), 600k+ L6 is the right price tag for you.
Anyone is E6 at Meta these days.
Lol?
Seriously?