I'm working in Europe, we're getting paid quite competitively locally, but its đ„ compared to US salaries. Not a day passes by on which I don't get reminded of this salary disparity.. our team is in a large international org in which we do the exact same job as our co-workers in the US (with the added benefit of staying up late at night for PST meetings). Can you justify why you guys in the US make 2x of our gross salary, maybe 3x of our net? Other locations like India are probably worse in this regard, not sure about China. The one exception may be Zurich - so let's ignore that one for a second. Even at the big tech companies, you have a hard time building any meaningful amount of net worth outside the US. This is frustrating me on a daily level. I've heard countless explanations of this situation, but humor me - what do you see as the main factor driving this? Also if you are not born in the US, do you *want* to live this country or do you feel forced to do so out of economic rationality? Lastly, what's your take on how this will change with remote work becoming the new normal? TC (gross): bad TC (net): miserable
I don't have a very high salary (yet) but my justification for high US salaries is 1) All the best companies are primarily headquartered here. That leads to the best talent not only being developed here but also immigrating. Most good SWEs will come to the US to work. 2) Supply and demand. This once again has to do with where these companies are located. The US tax law is generally lucrative for businesses. Being primarily based in the US means there employees are too. International tax law is complicated and time zone differences even more so.
1) The talent reinforcement loop is the #1 argument I hear. I think it's true to some degree but in my experience the skill difference between US and elsewhere is minimal while wage difference is huge. All SWEs in the US are good, sure, but not all good SWEs come to the US. Mind the causal direction.. I think only a small fraction of the global talent pool ever make it to the US. 2) Legally none of the big tech companies are US companies. That's branding. From a tax perspective they are complex international structures that leverage low corporate tax in the Cayman Islands or similar.
They are international structures and I totally agree they definitely skirt tax laws but the US gives a lot of tax breaks compared to Europe. As far as the talent reinforcement I think that plays in but isn't the only cause. It's also time zone difference and difficulty of hiring international employees. US makes it easy as we have the largest industry for tech by far. I think it also comes down to what people are willing to work for in other places. I think there is definitely some over inflation of salaries here but really only for the (mostly) best engineers. Top talent will always require a premium and the best talent will go where the money is, therefore driving up wages in those places even more.
TC or GTFO
Justify? Cause US companies bang the whole world and make big profits from it, and we help them Iâve never heard of any really big europe IT companies that dominate the world market Some medium ones like ARM maybe, but nothing serious
These US companies you are talking about are actually international companies. They have been founded in the US but 1) their products are sold world-wide and 2) their workforce is distributed globally. Microsoft will soon hit the threshold at which <50% of positions are US-based.
Labor supply and demand. Most of the top tech supply is in USA and due to demand for this top talent + government policy and regulations + convenience reasons demand for US tech talent from US corporations is high.
We work 80 hours a week do you? Itâs employment at will, itâs not France...
Even if you factor in our European perks (company phones, company cars, 30+ vacation days, healthcare, unemployment benefits, public pension AND humane working hours), it still won't justify working 3 times as many years as you do. When you all have retired we still relish our "generous" working conditions until we're 70 :P
If blind is your only source of information you cannot be more wrong. This country allows general public to buy even anti aircraft guns.. you still wanna come here? You sure youâll be able to enjoy that extra chump change that youâve saved to fire without getting shot in the head by a punk? :-) Choices mate..
Are you comparing to microsoft in US? You should compare with Microsoft US jobs
You can thank the socialists ruling your countries.
Posted to a similar post: For 2 kidâs medical educations (4 + 4 yrs = 8 yrs / kid) in current dollar costs 1M+ itself. Check some top medical schoolâs annual expense, and multiply by 8 for 2 kids. And remember after X years later itâd be at lest 1.03^X to adjust inflation. Go and check some SFH in Bay Area with good school ratings and decent commute. Easily 2-3M. Add rough 2% for as house ownership every year onwards = 40-60K. Multiply by 30-50 years depending when one buys and dies. Go and check kidâs private schooling cost. Even some top pre-school cost 30k+ per year / kid. Go and check healthcare costs for FIRE folks, who retired at 40-45 yrs, but Medicaid wonât trigger until 65. Easily 30k * (20-25 years) = 600-750K
Second part of medical school/residency is free. In fact, you're paid money. I have cousins and friends in medical school. The average cost is 62k a year for pre med for out of state, 37k for in state. This is assuming 0 scholarship/ra/ta which is generally not the case. So you're overstating education expense by a mile(it'll be more like 250k for 2 kids assuming no aid/tuition waiver etc). You also forgot to mention that the kids earning will start at 250k a year each at least. 2-3 million for an actual house, in one of the most high col areas in the world. Property is much more expensive in Indian tier 1 cities and also not cheap at all in Europe. Why care about private schooling if you bought a 2 million house in a good public school area? Private schools in Europe are also expensive, so what's the point?
In Europe (Germany) your kidâs wonât even be able to get medical education. You need straight A+ to get in.
I am European and I feel forced to live in US because of economic rationality :( I would love to come back to Europe, but want to FIRE as well... itâs a hard choice, maybe I will be able to FIRE in 3 years or maybe remote work would make EU salaries better
Work in the US and then FIRE in Europe seems ideal to me. I'm asking myself if working 10 years in the US is better than working 25 in Europe..
Thatâs true. But for this couple of years of working I donât have my friends and family around, feel like wasting this best years somehow...
I suspect the salaries you are seeing are FAANG in SF and Seattle that make double the rest of the US. It is because all the top companies and talent are there and these companies have tons of cash flow to pay them. Outside that specific bubble the salaries probably match yours.
Work councils and regulation of labour in Europe will always keep salaries lower than in the US which is an unregulated labour market. Surely you understand this?
We are underpaid. You are super underpaid. Our government gives fewer handouts, you are feeding a lot of mouths :)
Which country Google where you're underpaid?