Update 1: First off thank you to everyone who has commented so far. There is a ton of information shared and I'd encourage anyone who is going through a similar experience to read through every note below - whether you like what you read or not. There are several comments making some assumptions about what has happened since my post so I thought I would share. What has changed in my current role: Nothing. If I'm going to be put on pivot and served papers it hasn't happened yet. I've continued having coffee chats with other teams. If there is a manager that brings me on just to fill URA the situation isn't much different than where I am now so ultimately that isn't a big concern to me. I don't feel comfortable/safe/secure here and want to leave. That said, I'm not going to pro-actively get rid of my income for no reason unless I have another position in place. What has changed in my search: Tons and tons of applications with zero interviews to show for it so far. To right the ship I am in the process of revamping all supporting documents Resume/Cover Letter/etc., pushing hard to build my network further and working with career coaches/mentors to assure I am putting the best foot forward. I will do everything that needs done to have a shot somewhere else. Grinding to make the change at this point. Summary to date: This post has been a huge help to show me just how absolutely terrible it can be here. This is not to say that I didn't already know, but a quick glance below will show that there is a prevaling sentiment without question. That said, the post has also become less helpful over time as there isn't really much else to add. There really isn't a dissenting opinion which means everyone is either correct or there really isn't anyone else who has experienced different chiming in. The obvious thought being that there isn't anyone who has experienced different. Ultimately some of the commentary has been of little use, which again will happen. Things hinting at the notion that this will "ruin your marrage" or "hurt your family" are a bit dramatic and suggest my family or spouse's support is somehow tied to my job. We grew up with nothing, stayed together through much harder than this and aren't afraid to go back to having nothing if we need to. If anything, this experience has only affirmed how little everything else means when it can so easily be taken from you with seemingly no control of your own. In any case, I am going to keep this post live and continue to update. I have a hunch that for every person who posts a comment saying I will be fired yesterday there are hopefully a ton of people who benefit from reading this and learning of what comes. At this point my main priority is to maintain my income while finding an equal/better opportunity outside of the company. The comments continue to flow in about being done at AMZ, but do not seem to take into account that no one wants to be somewhere else more than I do at this point. I will provide an update when there is something else of note to share. TL;DR: Looking for referrals/to connect with cloud sales opportunities. Have 5.5 years of Sales experience (non-cloud), 2+ years of VM experience and MBA. Retail Vendor Manager - L5 Yoe: 1.5 Prior to joining AMZ I had 1 year of VM experience from a previous org and 5.5 years experience in Account Management/Sales with a Manufacturer. After about 6 months on my team I realized quickly that this was not a fit, for basically every reason you've likely already read in the hundreds of other posts here. I had taken on VM roles to gain procurement experience but the plan was to (after a few years) make a decision whether I wanted to buy or sell long term. After several years I am glad to have VM experience but I am 100% confident Sales and Account Management is where I want to be long term. I started having coffee chats toward the end of 2020 and get told point blank several times they want me on the team for the open position we were discussing. They would then schedule a meeting with my manager and I would immediately get a nondiscript rejection email. So I research, find Blind, learn what is happening, confront my manager with HR on the line and get a full confirmation that I am in Focus. I was absolutely floored. Had no reason to believe I wasn't performing to the bar. Speak with a few mentors and they assume it is because we had teammates leave right before Forte/OLR. Someone had to get put in, etc. It was irrelevant at that point. I get real specific about what exactly needs done to get off Focus. Document every single call, every accomplishment, everything. Get confirmation after 3 weeks that I am out of focus, there are no blockers to any transfers - I document that via email as I have everything else. One of the teams that had planned to offer me but couldn't while in focus was AWS. If I am at AMZ this is where I want to be. The Focus situation was one of the most mentally exhausting situations I've ever experienced and now I am wondering, even though I am off focus am I still hosed? Can a hiring manager see that I was in Focus and essentially pass me because of that situation? Honestly I would love to get away from this culture. My main goal is to get a shot at Cloud Sales in a remote role - this is why AWS is a great fit. I have had zero luck submitting applications to Google, Microsoft, etc but would switch in a heartbeat for an opportunity that kept me working from home, got me into Cloud Sales and in a culture that isn't as horrible. Every interview/coffee chat I had with the AWS team while in focus ended in either an offer or willingness to bring me on when a role opens. Now that I am out of focus my goal is to restart the search but would also love any suggestions anyone might have for other opportunities outside of AMZ. Hoping I can network and potentially get referrals outside of AMZ or if nothing else build my network further. #sales #ae
DM for Twilio sales referral
OP, I think the struggle will be finding a manager or team willing to overlook the focus portion in your track record. Unfortunately, you will be looked at as “damaged goods” by many HMs and the immediate question that will be asked is “if OP couldn’t perform well in his previous Amazon role, why would I want to take the risk of bringing him onto my team”. This isn’t to say that you shouldn’t stop trying. All you need is 1 hiring manager to take a chance on you. I also have to doubt that you got off of focus so quickly. Your timeline seems convoluted and you may still be on it, despite the reassurances from your manager (a manager by the way who appears to have let you embarrass yourself by applying to other roles to begin with and not letting you know that transfer was impossible). I think your best bet is to continue trying (btw no one cares about the MBA in AWS sales... they want experience) and also applying to other companies. Also you may be shooting too high in the roles you are applying to; remember a L5 VM (TC ~ 100k) is not a L5 AWS AE (TC ~ 220k). You should maybe start looking at roles on the ground floor (PDR, LDR, ISR). This may require a down level to L4 and a bit of humble pie. But as long as you keep the long term goal in sight, you will be fine. Regardless, treat your current manager like a troll. Keep in the dark and feed him/her shit. Realize that he/she tried to destroy you and that you can never trust him/her or your management again. Other blinders may ask you to take a retrospective approach and ask if the fault lies with you, but I have seen this often in the retail org (especially with Indian management — not ethically but culturally - anecdotal, but I have seen entire orgs of cultural Indians pursue a cutthroat game).
Appreciate the context with regard to optics with other hiring managers, to be honest that is my biggest concern. Would you suggest, assuming discussions are going well and we appear to be heading toward an offer, I discuss the situation with the HM prior to them speaking with my manager? My thought is if they are going to see it anyway I might as well TRY to control the narrative rather than leaving the new HM to hear only my Manager's perspective/bias. I didn't share much about the focus timeline initially, ultimately because I have no other real choice but to believe my manager when told I'm off and point blank that I can transfer without any restrictions. I have recapped every discussion via email since beginning the process through current day - not much else I can do but take him at his word at this point. Unless you have a suggestion? I received my first non-descript rejection from a HM after being informally offered the job two months before being officially told I was out of focus. Who knows how long I might have been in before that email - could have been a day could have been a month but I was in focus for at leat 2+ months. Based on what I've seen/researched that seems to be within the typical timeframe (1-3mo) Agree that all I can do is keep plugging away. Planning to knock out the CPC just as an additional reference to show I'm serious. Ultimately to your point it will likely come down to an HM giving me a shot.
So you have to “de-risk” yourself. 1. Before you even go any further with your aws conversations, get your CPC. I would also get your solutions architect associate. This shows that you not only meet the requirement but exceed it. You will need at least one and more likely both for an HM to overlook your performance. 2. Continue tracking conversations with your HM, but also acknowledge the very real possibility that you are still in Focus and he/she is preparing you for Pivot. Your HM isn’t trustworthy and would fire you in a second if required to (URA target). I cannot over-emphasize this (and will discuss in a later point). Your HM is now your enemy and has marked you. No goodwill can ever exist again between the two of you. Your continued documentation of every conversation only reminds the HM of the adversarial relationship every time you speak. 3. Do not bring up focus until you have endeared yourself to the team (hence the certs plus your retail experience plus grit, etc.). Only when you are about to apply should you mention it to the HM. Mention the work you have done to get out of it, that VM wasn’t a fit to begin with; and you have taken the positive steps to improve your career. 4. I don’t know the previous HMs you have talked to; but consider those bridges burned. Your reputation with them cannot be repaired and so I don’t know how valuable it would be for you to reach back out to them. If anything, it would only spread the reputation contamination. Remember, most tenures at Amazon are not long. Many HMs don’t understand the nuance of focus and will see you as a bad apple. You have to assume that any HMs you previously talked to have already discussed with their colleagues and those doors are closed. 5. I will go back to my initial assertion that you need to “de-risk” yourself and apply to ground floor level roles. Yes, you only need 1 HM to take a chance on you and you have retail sales experience, but you don’t have SaaS. It is highly unlikely you will get an AE or PDM role immediately. A ISR, LDR, or PDR would be most appropriate and from there you can rebuild your reputation with that team. 6. Going back to point 2 and to finish here; you should be in full defense and prepare mode. Everyday at Amazon may be your last; and I say this, not to alarm you but to emphasize the urgency. Make sure you are meeting all the requirements for your current role and recognize that at best, this may be a delaying action as your manager finds new and inventive ways to terminate you. You should be spending all your free time pursuing a two tiered approach. One, getting your aws certifications and then reaching out to HMs for the right roles. Two, in parallel, you should be applying full time to different companies. In reflection and if I was in your shoes, I would want nothing to do with Amazon; but I also see the longer play of getting aws sales experience on your resume. Hope this helps.
You guys need to give OP some more direct feedback. The truth of the matter is that his career at Amazon ended when his manager put him on focus. No matter what he does, it doesn’t really matter moving forward, I have never heard or seen a HM take someone with focus on their record (unless it was to later pivot/fire to meet the URA quota). OP needs to acknowledge this reality and move on. There is nothing left for him at Amazon. I agree with everything that has been said before, but OP just needs to acknowledge reality. Poster said it above. He is damaged goods now.
I am going to reply on this comment but want to thank you and everyone else for the feedback, I do truly appreciate it. I presumed the Focus portion of this post may overshadow the rest - which is fair given the background covered. With that I'll go ahead and provide some additional context, but I want to be very clear. I am absolutely looking for roles outside of AMZ as noted in the title. I worked damn hard to get out of Focus not because I agreed with the decision or believed it was merited. Sometimes you are delt a bad hand and you either work through it or you don't. I am not afraid of hard work and I am going to do everything I can to support myself and my family no matter what it takes. I am absolutely actively looking, applying and seeking references as outlined in the original message. That said I see no justification to leave any org without an offer in hand. Additionally, I want to be clear that I do not pretend to know every nuance of every HM's decision making logic. Throughout the course of this process I stayed close to manager mentors who were aware of the team dynamics at my (estimated) time of Focus entry. There were several members who left my team just before reviews and several new teammates who had just started. Essentially I was one of 2 tenured on the team. My mentors were fairly confident this was a wrong place wrong time issue wherein someone needed to be stuck with the short stick. However, while researching focus and fighting to get out I met many, many others who had worked through the process, got off, got promoted and/or transferred to other teams. Again completely anecdotal and I am hoping ultimately irrelevant if I can find a better fit, but thought I would share. Ultimately, giving every very valid point above credit, I will push back somewhat to say I see no justification for not doing both. I have hit the researching, networking, and application process hard looking for opportunities outside of AMZ to get away from this terrible culture. I am greatful for the few referrals offered above and would be thrilled for any others that come from this post. That said as far as AMZ goes, in a best case scenario I do find something that allows me to get experience and the Focus plan is not a blocker. In a worst case scenario we go back down the same path. I have several more months to continue looking outside of the company while not losing my income earlier than need be while going through all the steps including and after Focus. At this point I am not afraid of making an effort to take a role in Amazon and being blocked. That happened multiple times before I even knew what was going on. If through my efforts I find a role within AMZ and things go well, great. If not I will drive to keep performing to the bar and searching for something else outside of AMZ that allows me to actually feel good about my career. In sum, thank you for the insights on HM tendencies and definitely open to any referrals outside of AMZ.
Good on you! And keep up the good fight. I think myself and others have tried to be “real” with you. Even if you do transfer, the likelihood of promotion is dim. However as long as you can pursue both paths in parallel, then good on you. I also think it’s smart that you acknowledge that your manager has you in their sights and the longer you stay, the more likely you eventually will be pivoted. Also be prepared to be pivoted by that next team, as many managers use those internal transfers to meet their URA quota. Good luck and let this thread know what happens. When/if you get your pivot papers, will advise as well.
Dm for Microsoft referral if interested
Are you a rep or recruiter? Genuinely curious when people say “dm for referral”.. would they hypothetically send resume to you? Or what’s the process
Rep. I would refer you if you sent me your resume.
DM for a Google referral
Hello which sales org do you work in?
DM for PayPal if interested
Amazon HMs do see the Dev List / Focus / Coaching and before transfer are required to have 1:1 discussion including peformance with your current manager. HMs will choose a candidate without baggage or if they take you then it will because you can be easily URA tagged and cycled into Focus again to protect their current team of stellar boot-lickers from the mandatory URA quota. You did a great job in beating Focus once but your manager receives training in managing reports out of Amazon and this includes how to make scenarios which are impossible to beat.. so next time expect that. From this point on you should be in maximum defensive mode in Amazon and running down the clock until you can secure an external offer. Network like never before - recruiters, job boards, old colleagues, vendors... the list goes on and be working on any certifications for your next post. Get your spouse behind you in this and ensure its understood that Amazon management culture is the enemy and you need to devote budgeting to building a financial safety net and all personal time to external career development. Dont leave your career in the hands of Amazon or your current manager... they are looking after their own interests and these are in opposition to yours.... own the next steps yourself and drive your own career direction moving away from Amazon's toxicity as far and as fast as you can.
+ Infinity here I respect the kid’s optimism in pursuing parallel paths, but I think it shows he is totally naive. No manager is going to want him and the best option is to get out. Unfortunately, the way I predict this will happen is that OP will drive to have a foot in both worlds and not committted to one or the other. He won’t get the transfer and he will also be pivoted without securing a job first. OP. Heed these words: all is lost at Amazon! Get out before it’s too late.
Golden words
Hahah. Yep. I think we can all close this thread and stop commenting. The only team that will take OP would be one that is looking to fire. Given the number of people on Blind saying this, hopefully OP smarts up. Regardless, OP, when you get your pivot papers in the next few months (on this team or the next), please come back to Blind and let others learn from your experience. Hopefully, you have another job secured by then. You mentioned family, and I know that a lot of marriages have been ruined by Amazon. Can’t imagine that your spouse will be happy if you don’t have a job.
Tech Industry
4d
15763
RIP Google Core Employees replaced with Mexico and India Workers
World Conflicts
Yesterday
1184
Why do Indians support Israel so much( on blind surprisingly) when Israel really thinks 💩of them ?
Cars
Yesterday
780
Tesla ruined whole auto industry
World Conflicts
Yesterday
624
Peaceful Protest Hasn’t Worked and Has Been Met With Aggression.
Tech Industry
Yesterday
3305
Pray for folks at Tesla
DM