Has it become easy to get to Principal at Microsoft?

Amazon / Product
Tolstoy

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Tolstoy
Mar 17, 2018 37 Comments

Used to work at microsoft before and remember that getting to principal was considerably tough. You had to repeatedly prove your ability to deliver, make right decisions and lead. However, in the recent year or so, I have seen a number of folks that I worked with in the past and I know well, get promoted to principal. A couple of these I know really well since I am still in touch with past teammates. They have repeatedly failed to deliver the same project over and over and yet been promoted to principal recently. They aren’t rockstars, rather inconsistent performers, however excellent at peddling bs, by which I mean sending out regular status emails claiming a lot has been done when most of it is fluff and not really done by them. Is this the norm now in microsoft? Should also mention that both are PMs and both are female so not sure if it is some diversity quota promo. One of them used to regularly demo products built by other teams in conference keynotes. I know it was annoying to the team that built the products that she got to present them on stage to the world just because they had to have certain number of female presenters in the conference. Not sure if this helped her get the promo. If it did, sounds like the bar for principal is not high anymore.

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TOP 37 Comments
  • Facebook
    supernewbi

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    supernewbi
    I’m also ex-msft and I definitely feel like principal is the new senior 😅 Part of the reason is probably due to msft comp bands. However it’s also possible people grew and acquired better skills.
    Mar 17, 2018 1
    • Amazon / Other
      Tolstoy

      Go to company page Amazon Other

      Tolstoy
      OP
      That’s a bad thing if true. Microsoft brand is already so diluted in the industry. If principal is the new senior, it will get diluted further. I regularly see msft principals interviewing for L6 roles at amazon, which is not a good sign. And I have been in some of those loops too. They are no way above L6, and in some cases L5! That just means the titles at msft don’t mean anything anymore.
      Mar 17, 2018
  • Microsoft
    Malar

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    Malar
    We have 1 principal for every 30 engineers in the team I am in. So we consider principal bar as very high
    Mar 17, 2018 6
  • Principal is the new Senior, and Partner the new Principal. You clearly sees lots of people in those bands with 15+ years at Microsoft who just know how to speak up and who to speak to. No tech skills, which is why they won't pass interviews outside.

    The main problem with this is the brand damage. Now, many companies are already aware of this title inflation, and those still at Microsoft may be stuck, or had to accept lower levels when going out.
    Mar 17, 2018 4
    • Partner is the new Principal.

      I'm willing to repeat and present "data" (as much as one can in an anonymous forum). Long ago, when I joined Microsoft, we had Product Unit Manages (PUMs). Those were in charge of a triade of disciplines (dev, test, PM). When Ballmer rewrote the level guide, most of those landed in level 65. Imagine today: where in the org you have someone managing many disciplines?

      At that time, and when levels started to be shown in Outlook, a principal "walked on water". Most Principal PMs could attach WinDbg to a process and guide a junior tester through a debugging session.

      There is no "limit of partners". Don't know how such fakenews started. The partners decide if there is a limit. Could you imagine a meeting in which they will decide for halving the number of partners?!

      It is clear the number grew over time. It grew meaningless, and then we got Distinguished Engineers and Tech Fellows (some of very dubious tech skills!). PUMs were supposed to be able to "run a startup". Can you imagine some of our current partners running a startup? (Up, not into the ground!)
      Mar 18, 2018
    • Microsoft / Eng
      💩F5!

      Go to company page Microsoft Eng

      💩F5!
      Well you seem to have been around more than I have.
      I haven’t seen L65 PUMs, but L67 yes. So from what I see maybe there is dilution between 67 and 68. If you say people at 65 were way stronger long time ago that they could be 68s now with the same caliber then then I’ll defer to you.
      Mar 18, 2018
  • I remember before public release of win10, bunch of people got promoted to principal and partners without even seeing how the product would do! Win 10 wasn’t a success (despite all the incentives, not many people upgraded) and I wondered what the philosophy behind those promotions was! Finally I got it, it’s all politics and about who has bigger mouth and better network. I couldn’t stay any longer in that world..
    Mar 17, 2018 3
  • Microsoft is very big. People forget how big. It might as well be five or six different companies most of the time, and in fact it has about as many engineers as five or six other "big" companies put together.

    Some organizations absolutely have different applications of standards with demonstrated competencies for a level and role. Not all.

    Across everything, I do think that industry pressure has led to a bit of title inflation, but it's not nearly as severe as people make it out to be overall, though in some isolated organizations it's pretty ridiculous. I lost a strong 62 candidate to an offer at 65 from Azure once, which is the worst I've seen. Reviewed the materials afterwards and there's just no way that anything above 63 could make sense.

    Meanwhile, I've seen a lot of people with good scope and influence work hard for several years at Senior before finally making Principal. It all depends on the organization.
    Mar 17, 2018 2
    • An easy way to think about this is that if someone grew through the ranks as an IC to become a principal he/she is good. Getting to principal via managerial path or external hire means they didn’t really cross the bar
      Mar 17, 2018
    • Amazon / Other
      Tolstoy

      Go to company page Amazon Other

      Tolstoy
      OP
      @speculoos : good comment. Agree with what you say. The issue is cases like you mentioned where a candidate gets l65 purely because they are perceived to be in demand. Ask someone on the team where they got hired to and they will have similar comments as I had in my post.

      @jeffr : good point. But think about how unfair it is to the person who grew through the ranks. They probably should have got to principal a couple years ago if they were really good. Such people leave over time, and if, as you say, they are really good because they grew through the ranks, they are ones msft should be making an effort to keep. Truth is msft has lost confidence in ppl who stick around. They value external hires way higher and then wonder when good long term employees leave. No refreshers, no recognition - what would you expect!
      Mar 17, 2018