Any googlers wanna talk about this manifesto?

Aug 4, 2017 184 Comments

comments

Want to comment? LOG IN or SIGN UP
TOP 184 Comments
  • Netflix AqEe56
    It is a pleasure and an honor to work with diverse individuals who are amazing at their jobs. It's also the shame of America that black and Latino people and women are born at such a dramatic economic and cultural disadvantage that they very rarely make it through to Google level tech jobs. This document perpetuates that system by suggesting races and genders have inherently different ability to code in C++ or JavaScript or own products or administer Linux or train neural networks or manage people. The mere suggestion of that IS THE PROBLEM.

    If you believe that you are truly stupid.

    Donald Trump has brought you out of the woodwork. Imagine that... Donald Dumpster Fire Trump is your cultural ambassador.

    If you feel diversity is bad I strongly urge you to identify yourselves openly at your company and in public. Make your views known and state your name. Stop hiding.
    Aug 5, 2017 19
    • Google HKeh50
      Coding C++ requires high IQ; are you unaware of group average racial differences in IQ? Wanting a career in programming is correlated with object-oriented mindsets; are you unaware of group average gender differences in object vs person orientation?

      Lot of ignorant comments out here.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google kMGB77
      ^^^^ was that parody?
      Aug 6, 2017
  • Uber 2Tpj4u
    Diversity is stupid
    Aug 4, 2017 3
    • Salesforce / Mgmt Shablamo
      OP
      You're not getting your job back, Travis.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • New / Eng
      fcktechiez

      New Eng

      BIO
      trolled you eh bud?
      fcktechiezmore
      kys T-dog
      Aug 5, 2017
  • Expedia Lamer
    Opinions of a few idiots do not represent an entire company. It's like picking a stupid thing westboro baptist church did and asking other Christians what they think on the subject
    Aug 4, 2017 8
    • Google senik23
      He cited his sources. Quillette had a piece where credible scientists confirmed his interpretation of the data. The denialists here are pretty much just liberal creationists. Sorry you don't like the scientific reality but it's still true.
      Aug 10, 2017
    • New / Other 520476
      @senik23 keep us informed of your status, please. Looks like your company is out to purge everyone like you.
      Aug 12, 2017
  • Microsoft / Eng Nerdz
    Unless it came from leadership who cares?

    The whole notion of considering gender/race in medical school, law school, high tech applications is inherently sexist/racist.

    Just because someone makes an argument you disagree with doesn't mean you should name call, bully or shame them. It means you should give a counter argument.

    I'm getting sick of this west coast witch hunt mentality. It's like when Satya made the faux pax about women not asking for raises. It was a dumb comment but doesn't mean he's sexist.
    Aug 4, 2017 3
    • Facebook LMrs81
      ^ that's BS, the decisions are made by a hiring committee, and interviewers are expected to provide reasoning for their hire/nohire recommendations
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Expedia Lamer
      Facebook, there are a 100 ways to get someone to fail an interview with the entire hiring committee, especially if you're not the last interviewer. Thinking that the committee somehow helps with this is naive
      Would you stay silent and go on an interview if you knew that one of the interviewers dislikes you and hope that the hiring committee can see past it?
      Aug 5, 2017
  • Pinterest / Eng panicpanda
    Guy's an idiot. That being said, it's often not a fair split. Being a single white person on a full team of Indians is just as bad as a single Indian on team of whites. both scenarios happen often. except that in the white case, it's worse due to language restriction and fear of being seen as a bigot if you complain about it.
    Aug 4, 2017 5
    • Bluebot / Other Perry Grin
      The most common language in India is English. There are dozens of languages spoken in India. Hindi is probably less common than you think. English is spoken by everyone with a degree, and most of the population.
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Booz Allen Hamilton / Eng FYMB45
      I'll learn a language other than English when computer code is based on something other than English.
      Aug 7, 2017
  • Google HKeh50
    It was a pretty reasonable first draft of a doc - could have used more sourcing but the basic ideas were sound and respectfully presented. Lots of people saw value in the discussion, but even more flipped out and declared that a call for reasoned discussion of an empirical question was harmful and threatening to them; management/HR is going to side with them because that's the PC police state of today's tech companies.
    Aug 5, 2017 6
    • Google HKeh50
      There's a lot of relevant science out there, some of it cited in the doc. When he shared it with a small - but open - group it was with the intention of soliciting comments to improve the doc, and it has evolved over the last few days, including more sources being cited.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • WRKSHP / Eng 999
      The public never saw any of the sources. Is it possible to get those?
      Aug 6, 2017
  • Microsoft / Eng ric_ta
    Have these people been on Google campus? "Google repeatedly discriminates against people of color". I guess Indians and Chinese don't count as minorities? wtf. This is just a bunch of angry individuals who want to lower the bar so people who can't pass the interviews can be installed into positions they aren't qualified for.
    Aug 5, 2017 9
    • Microsoft / Eng ric_ta
      Unfortunately this positive discrimination will only backfire. Minorities don't want to be seen as the "sick people" as you used in your example. You probably didn't mean it that way, but that is how it will be viewed. After a while, even the minorities like myself who had to pass the same tough interviews will be viewed by white, Asians etc as someone who just got to the position I'm at because of the handouts I received. I just don't want white liberals ruining another industry that is already fair and equitable by using demagoguery for political gain
      Aug 5, 2017
    • Uber 2Tpj4u
      The "minorities" here in US have nothing to climb comparing to most of us who are immigrants.
      Aug 5, 2017
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Lockheed Martin / Other
      Schz3

      Lockheed Martin Other

      PRE
      industrialoptic
      Schz3more
      "Evolutionary psychology" may be a legit field but it's weak findings are way over interpreted in pop press. Whenever I see anything about it my BS radar goes off. His blanket stereotypes of "left" and "right" beliefs do not look right to me. The claim that exposure to androgens in the womb are what make male and female behavior different and has nothing to do with androgen exposure later in life is obviously goofy af or testosterone would not impact libido of both genders, help people with low levels be less depressed etc. the list goes on. Not worthwhile deconstructing the whole thing, but already those are foundational points to the rest.
      Aug 9, 2017
    • New / Eng Elementary
      Most of the views around what is right for how to handle the genders are varying levels of dodgy. Which would be less worrying if recent cultural changes weren't so widespread and we had at least 5-10 generations to judge their impacts to validate them.

      The androgens thing is generally proven for significant behavioral changes in girls who experience them in the womb... Men derive from an initially female template, so a partial activation of some code from androgen exposure would hardly be shocking.

      As for the conservative / liberal thing... It's something of a generalization but say you think of it as early adopters and late adopters... The early adopters reveal whether something has value and allows it to be refined before it's more widely accepted.

      You can't have whole societies of early adopters or you wouldn't have any long term stability.

      Of course, if you grow up in a liberal area, your conservative bias would likely just protect and enforce local beliefs... But the principle of managed adoption through real world testing - is an understandable and necessary trait for humanity to have.

      It's just that humanity isn't designed for the current rate of change or separation of sub-populations.
      Aug 9, 2017
  • Google Max11chars
    White guy with Harvard education thinks Google discriminates white guys.

    He's right, probably. But them's the shakes, bro. He hasn't gotten the message yet that his lot in life is to endure all the diversity and inclusion programs and political correctness while still enjoying the world's best opportunities.

    Needs to shaddup and get in line, he ain't suffering
    Aug 5, 2017 5
    • Google Max11chars
      My point about Harvard is that the guy who posted the document went to the #1 school and works at the #1 company. Makes more money at age 26 or whatever than 99% of people ever will. And then he posts this doc about being discriminated against.

      The world is his oyster. He can be a mega millionaire and have anything he wants. He just needs to realize that if he just shuts up and plays the PC game, he will be fine
      Aug 5, 2017
    • CapTech JJNl18
      Lmao ^^^ the crutch of every Google employee - the idea that they will get 10 mil in seed funding for an idea they half have just because they worked for Google 💩 - not sure if you’ve checked in with Uber lately but that mentality isn’t working out so well.
      Aug 8, 2017
  • Sovos / Ops $$$???
    I think the manifesto is fairly reasonable. The reaction from those that disagree has been focused on shaming and that supports one of the writer's main points.

    I would like to see substantive responses from news outlets and twitter critics. The "this guy is bad" reactions are not productive.
    Aug 5, 2017 6
    • Sovos / Ops $$$???
      AqEe56 - thank you for sharing your thoughts. What is the ultimate goal of the diversity programming at Google, in specific and measurable terms? Is it a 50/50 gender split in IT jobs?

      If that's the case Google should apply their diversity programs at colleges, rather than on their campus. In 2015, Google IT jobs were 18% women. In 2015, Stanford's Com Sci enrollment was 30% years women; in 2012 Stanford's Com Sci enrollment was much lower at 21% (https://medium.com/@jcueto/race-and-gender-among-computer-science-majors-at-stanford-3824c4062e3a)

      I wouldn't expect Google's IT workforce to track with the most recent stats from Stanford, as their workforce is made up of people who graduated from colleges over the last 40+ years.

      Given the input, we can't expect the output to be 50/50.

      This is one reductionist explanation of demographics in IT. Factors outside of education choices play a role as well. The manifesto author's discussion of personality differences between men and women on a population basis has support in Psychological research (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201201/gender-differences-in-personality-are-larger-previously-thought%3famp)

      The author did not say that individual women are incapable of programming at Google. They attempted to explain why the demographics in IT jobs don't match the population at large and attempted to make a case that Diversity programs at Google will not counteract those factors effectively or in a way that will have tangible benefit for Google.
      Aug 6, 2017
    • Google miCJ74
      HKeh50- the systematic discrimination is real and not ridiculous. Though I agree Google can do little if most candidates are men, the problem is bigger than Google. Google can't undo millennia of indoctrination.
      Aug 6, 2017

Salary
Comparison

    Real time salary information from verified employees