SDE - Facebook E5 vs Square L6

Amazon
sf117

Go to company page Amazon

sf117
Oct 2, 2021 50 Comments

Yo! Long post, so apologies for that.

tl;dr: Expecting offers to be very similar in comp so focus is on wanting to maximize learning and IC track growth (not management). WLB would be great to have so I can focus on family and other revenue streams, but not a necessity for now. Where should I go and why?

Longer version:
I am considering offers from both FB (E5) and SQ (L6). While I don't have the final numbers yet, I am reasonably certain that the numbers are going to be quite close to each other and will not make a big difference to me financially.

Comp:
FB E5: Recruiter has said they will push for top of the line for E5 Seattle, so I assume it'll be the common one posted on Blind/Levels.fyi these days: 210/700/100/15% (I think?)

SQ L6: Initial ask from my side was 470k for Y1 (205/235/30). TBD after further recruiter talk.

I am in a pretty big dilemma w.r.t to choosing between the two. Frankly I had expected only 1 offer and am still ok with either company, but after talking to a few friends over the last 5 days, listing down the Pros/Cons for both (and my own devil's advocation in parentheses):

FB
Pros:
1. Comp will beat out SQ over the next few years due to refreshers and performance bonus multipliers - (Though it does look like square also has refreshers and the diff is ~5-25% at best?)
2. Brand-name - FAANG / resume value for future changes - (though I guess I already have Amazon and a couple of well-known Tier 1 services there).
3. All the engineers and managers on the Interview loop were super positive about working at FB (but I guess they are trained to be that way?)
4. Generalist role - not silo'ed to one type of industry like Fintech.

Cons:
1. WLB / Performance obsessed culture - someone I have worked with @amzn and know very well told me they work 12+ hour days right after their first half and said their org (Ads) was worse than their Amzn experience - which deeply concerns me.
2. Not one of the 11 engineers that I have talked to in the last week have anything positive to say about WLB or working on other passion projects - investing, real estate, other revenue streams, etc. outside of work.
3. PERM filing isn't happening right now (though it doesn't matter for another 4+ years for me).
4. Remote work outside the country isn't supported - esp. from India. So I can't risk traveling outside and getting stuck with Covid restrictions.
5. Considered bad for society (but I think there are plenty of teams working on good things too)

SQ
Pros:
1. WLB is terrific according to Blind and to the 3 acquaintances I have there.
2. All the people on the loop were super nice and were in love with the culture
3. No performance reviews / obsession with performance
4. All Remote (not sure if I can work from Europe / India though?)
5. Generally considered to be a company that makes lives better

Cons:
1. Not the same as FAANG on resume?
2. Much slower than FB/Amzn and tons of squandered opportunities (Square Installments lost the head start on BNPL, Capital lost out to UPST, etc.)
3. Listing as a con as well - No performance reviews so refreshers are very much team/manager dependent.
4. The engineers I talked to on the loop (I assume they are L6 cuz I was interviewing for L6) seemed very.. normal/average? They weren’t the super-smart-but-ass-holey types @amzn you would normally come across. While I deeply appreciate having awesome teammates - I also want to have some role models who are amazing at their craft to learn from.
5. Tech stack seems quite outdated (RoR, MySQL) and the engineers I talked to seemed unaware of Cloud / Serverless patterns and told me they were in the process of migrating to the cloud and breaking up the monolithic RoR app.
6. Scale? Talking about scaling with the 3 teams I had interactions with - they were talking about 1000 TPS being a challenge (not sure if this is across the company or one-off). The software I have written / scaled / own @amzn serves 12k TPS on a slow day and 40k TPS on Prime day / Christmas / BF. I am not sure if my experience will be valued / needed.
7. Big in Fintech - I don't want to be silo'ed to Fintech companies in the future.

Extra note About me and my situation so that I can get the best possible advice here:
1. I have no interest in becoming a manager, and I fully intend to continue on the IC path, inventing cool new things and building out amazing software that’s used by millions/billions of users. So opportunities around management matter less to me, and I am more invested in having rock-solid IC role models that I can learn from and grow.
2. I have been a reasonably good performer at amazon and am not afraid of being pipped at FB, but I do have some health issues that will prevent me from working long hours (I used to do 12-14 hour days @ amzn getting TT ratings before screwing up my health so I don't want to repeat that shit and screw myself again).
3. I plan on spending more time with my parents in India over the next few years, so working for a couple months out of India every year would be awesome to have (I realize Amazon is probably my best bet at doing this though haha)
4. I am leaving on excellent terms with multiple orgs / managers / directors so I have no doubts I will always be welcomed back @ amzn, so I have a backup parachute in case shit hits the fan at FB/SQ.
5. I interviewed with these 2 companies cause I believe in certain products from both and their long term prospects in maintaining a healthy lead in their own spaces. I do not plan to interview elsewhere and I hate LC so interviewing more is not an option here. Moreover, the FB offer is an exploding one, so I got only 1 week.

Why am I leaving Amazon?
I guess I am in the minority on blind, but I love Amazon and would most likely miss it. I was very lucky to have amazing managers overall (a couple bad ones, but 4 very good ones), promotions, and exciting products to build in the 6 years I was here. The reason I am leaving is to have a change, so maximizing the culture differences (whether better/worse) and learning how other companies create things will be great. I would be lying if I said I felt fully appreciated for what I bring to my team in terms of team building and other extra-curricular activities that provide value to Amazon (bar raising, security certifying, SAoA, conferences, etc.), so that's another reason for me to leave this place behind.

TIA for reading and helping me out!!!

Blind etiquette:
Current TC: 304k
YoE: 5.5 (1.5 leading a team) - all at @amzn
Ratings year wise: HV, HV, TT, HV, TT, HV3

#facebook #square #e5 #l6 #amazon

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TOP 50 Comments
  • Facebook
    bighead@pp

    Go to company page Facebook

    bighead@pp
    FB has a pretty odd/shitty tech stack as well in many parts of the company. If you’re in product, you’ll write PHP…
    Oct 2, 2021 5
    • Facebook
      bighead@pp

      Go to company page Facebook

      bighead@pp
      Also, Hack is trash. There is a reason practically nobody else uses it.
      Oct 2, 2021
    • Why 5-10 years ago yes but nowadays no? Even the last 3 years I have seen tremendous improvement on infra across the company. A small number of tools like vscode is flaky and we all know it. But even vscode has its own merit: seamless integration with fb infra. Go to a smaller company, or a large company without monorepo and shard infra, you'll immediately feel you are in stone age.
      Oct 2, 2021
  • Pick FB if WLB is not your primary consideration. SQ engineering is far away from FB. Look at SQ price you'll understand why people there look happy.
    Oct 2, 2021 2
    • Amazon
      sf117

      Go to company page Amazon

      sf117
      OP
      Thank you! Do you mean SQ's engg quality is far away (in a bad way) compared to FB?
      Yeah SQ stock has been on a tear but I am ok on the stock front, I already have a couple hundred grand in both and whichever one I join, I will most definitely sell half and buy the other one on the market, so i dont think that hurts me much overall. But I will keep it in mind :) Thanks again!
      Oct 2, 2021
    • Square
      sellme

      Go to company page Square

      sellme
      Idk, I think our engineering quality is solid. All I hear from my Facebook friends is how hacked together facebooks code is.
      Oct 2, 2021
  • Facebook / Eng
    xY5gHz

    Go to company page Facebook Eng

    xY5gHz
    I wouldn’t worry much about brand name since you already have Amzn. Square is respected in the industry.

    Fb generally is known for not so great WLB while square has good WLB. I interviewed at square and they gave me a shit offer, this is the main reason people don’t join them.

    If the comp is close I’d pick square.
    Oct 2, 2021 2
    • Amazon
      sf117

      Go to company page Amazon

      sf117
      OP
      Got it, I will update the post once i have final numbers from SQ. Thanks!
      Oct 2, 2021
    • Square
      genius2000

      Go to company page Square

      genius2000
      Historically our comp hasn’t been competitive, though recent years have improved.

      Given our growth, anybody who joined 1.5+ years ago is crushing it.

      My L5 Swe Tc is now $500k+

      And Square is just starting. There’s so much more potential. I see 3-5x in the next 5 years.
      Oct 3, 2021
  • Square
    Oct 2, 2021 0
  • Square
    $q

    Go to company page Square

    $q
    Square doesn’t allow you to work from anywhere outside the US (unless it’s a work trip). We just announced a policy that would allow people to work from certain countries for up to 4 weeks in a year (has to be one trip), but the list of countries haven’t been decided yet.

    If that’s really important for you, then you have to bet on Square adding India to the list because no one knows if it will be.
    Oct 3, 2021 4