Boeing 737 Max what happened?

Amazon SQtd68
May 9 273 Comments

What are your thoughts on what’s going on? Was it really an engineering issue? Can anyone shed some 💡? Also what’s Boeing’s TC? Are engineers in Seattle?

TC: 115

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TOP 273 Comments
  • It was 100% engineering issue caused by greed of Boeing to compete with Airbus. They didn’t care if people could and did die
    May 921
    • TI IOlOl0
      M A C R O T R A N S A C T I O N S
      May 9
    • IBM YBgw64
      Boeing acting in bad faith? It's almost like what endless pursuit of profit will do...
      May 9
    • New / Eng
      mRvg14

      NewEng

      PRE
      Amazon, Bloomberg LP
      BIO
      Amazon sde
      mRvg14more
      Sounds like that's a management/leadership issue, not engineering.
      May 9
    • Bloomberg / Eng
      Fork()

      BloombergEng

      PRE
      Amazon
      Fork()more
      Two words: Regulatory capture but honestly, we would be in good shape if that was the only problem
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      Any Industrial or Human-Factors Eng. worth their salt would not have left that plane fly.

      Greed was the pure factor in why those lives were lost.
      May 9
    • Amazon eldorodo
      Boeing engineers are crazy good and very safety conscious. They might be slow but greedy isn’t their thing. They work at a discount compared to most engineering companies. Their leadership however is famous for political oriented architecture that often leads to bad things.
      May 9
    • Oracle Poas871285
      That’s exactly what Tesla is trying to do - you need to spend few grans for software update. I’ll never buy Tesla just because of that.
      May 9
    • VMware / Engrandomizer
      Mr Oracle. The WHOLE industry works like that. You apply a serial number and feature X is enabled. Software development has costs to companies and they need their money back for their investment. Tesla is betting that you will buy the upgrade after your purchase and decides to swallow the hw cost of the feature and fit all models with it in advance.
      May 9
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      Yeah, it's entirely different when you charge for enabling additional features vs basic safety features.

      It's not like Tesla is selling the cars with brakes and charging extra for the software that enables them.
      May 9
  • Amazon GibHut
    "Are engineers in Seattle?" Implying did they outsource critical engineering work to India? (Spoiler: they did)
    May 922
    • Ok, ok, I think some clarification here is needed.

      Outsourcing to India or China == Usually bad idea.

      Hiring Indians or Chinese in Silicon Valley == Usually good idea.

      That is all.
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      I didn’t know you work at Boeing? Oh that’s right you don’t. What a grossly incorrect statement @GibHut
      May 9
    • Nvidia AWhimAway
      Also, companies establishing development branches in India or China and developing stuff there is not the same as outsourcing a website development to some random company in India.
      May 9
    • DoubleVerify Karius123
      This is not a software or outsourcing issue. It was a management call to create the MAX version of the existing airframe to compete with Airbus A320 neo while not making comprehensive changes to the aircraft that would require pilot retraining and certification .

      Greedy management --- > bad hardware engineering --- > software band aid to cover hw issues --- > creating single point of failures by charging extra for redundant safety equipment
      May 9
    • Cisco Infensus
      Doesn't ITAR limit that? Usually need to be citizen or green card to work on aerospace in US
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      That’s correct, they only accept american citizens to work with Boeing proprietary information.
      May 9
    • Microsoft / Product
      Brazuka

      MicrosoftProduct

      PRE
      Bain & Company
      Brazukamore
      I highly doubt that considering Boeing has bought foreign Aircraft companies. Handling proprietary information for US citizens only is completely unfeasible. Maybe on the their defence division only
      May 9
    • eBay costume
      Why is the Americans management so dumb to outsource to india or China?
      May 9
    • Nvidia lDxR18
      The software work for that plane was not done in India at all! All mission critical stuff, and software is done in the US itself!
      May 13
    • Nvidia lDxR18
      If it’s related to creating fuselages or some body part, or some IT related stuff, or supporting products being sold in India. That’s the whole scope of work there as of now. Some R&D stuff is there but nothing like in production or affecting any existing project.
      Everything else is ITAR controlled, and done in the US, by US citizens. They do hire and offshore the work for Jeppesen, which is what you should google!
      May 13
  • Tesla dhfjedofks
    It’s poor system design and greed. The MCAS module took a decision based on input from only one angle of attack sensor. Any engineer worth their salt would know that you can’t take such a system critical decision based on only one input.

    The greed is though that they had the software which would take inputs from both the angle of attack sensors on either side of the plane and would corroborate their readings before taking a decision, but the airlines had to pay extra for this.

    Seriously fuck you to the people who designed this system and took these decisions. It cost more than 500 peoples lives. Fuck you.
    May 912
    • Fitbit brobro
      I think he's taking about a tesla employee commenting on such an issue
      May 9
    • Tesla dhfjedofks
      Didn’t know that a passenger could take over flight control at any point of time and prevent it from spiraling down towards the ground even though the software insists it wants to.
      May 9
    • Micro Focus profuser
      Also there should have been 3 AoA sensors so that if one malfunctions you have the other 2 to compare against. It's mind boggling how the system as critical as this was designed.
      May 9
    • Argo AI Gargo
      Same is gunna be said about a leader who thinks cameras and not Lidar will get a car to
      Safely drive itself. SMH.
      May 9
    • Micro Focus profuser
      Lidar is accurate but it's expensive and impractical. Cameras based self driving will needs lots of data for it to learn and then be extremely accurate to act on the edge cases. Tesla has now got that data now with billions of miles driven on the Teslas on road.
      May 9
    • Riot Games
      ifbx7474

      Riot Games

      PRE
      Riot Games
      ifbx7474more
      I understand the righteous frustration about the outcomes. But to blame the outcome on the people that did the design (like the engineers) vs. the organization that allows and perhaps pressures what is shipped based on financial incentives is not always fair. Granted no aerospace or mechanical engineering experience here, but from what I know usually decisions that end up going badly are made by non engineers about 10 levels up with no actual context. All that said, JFC what a disaster.
      May 10
    • Amazon !JeffBezos
      Lidar is great anywhere not outside the valley. Still waiting for a single video of lidar in rain or any other weather.
      May 10
    • Cisco
      ()()

      Cisco

      PRE
      AMD
      ()()more
      Where it’s going guys
      Why you target different companies which is not related to the main post,
      Tesla : driver has a decision to take control, all the accidents happened because they believed too much and slept and not concentrating on windshield warning.
      Boeing: no passenger/pilot has control on this shit, and you get that features if you pay extra money. This is shit.
      May 10
    • Adobe / EnguNMM82
      @Cisco: That's wrong, pilots do have the ability to both override and turn off the MCAS feature. So it's much closer to the Tesla "autopilot" than you're acknowledging
      May 10
    • Intel Act2016
      Sorry the model of assuring the computer is so fkn broken it is absurd. If something happens that is an emergent the driver will not be engaged enough to make a difference.
      May 10
  • Amazon / Engn0v
    100% management issue.
    May 93
    • Intuitive Surgical HfMg53
      This always
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      The fish stinks from the head first
      May 9
    • Salesforce omgWhut
      It sounds like PM pressure
      May 11
  • Amazon QUfT36
    just wanted to point out that airbus uses same sensor to my knowledge
    May 95
    • Capital One Blervin
      Airbus has three angle-of-attack sensors, so if one of them fails, there are still two sensors to go by. Boeing planes have two, but despite that, the MAX's MCAS system was designed to take input from just one of them, causing a single point of failure. The alert for when the AOA sensors were in disagreement was agreed to be an optional add-on by Boeing and the FAA. Ridiculous design.
      May 9
    • Microsoft BlueScreen
      It’s called redundancy. Airbus has it. Boeing made it an optional safety feature. That was a BUSINESS DECISION. Business always screws Engineers.
      May 9
    • Amazon PotatoSale
      This is how MBAs kill engineering companies.
      May 9
    • Asurion obtlun
      A safety sensor is never an option/upgrade in aviation. FAA messed up by allowing “self grading”, corners were cut in the boardroom.
      May 10
    • Amazon PotatoSale
      It's like letting a wolf guard a sheep pen.
      May 10
  • Boeing / Eng
    AXV9083

    BoeingEng

    PRE
    Boeing
    AXV9083more
    Engineers can only give recommendations, its ultimately upper management/LT who makes the final decision. People are forgetting that engineers don’t have authority to override management decisions.
    I don’t even work on this program (I work on 777 and 777X) but to blame all the fault on engineers is grossly incorrect.
    May 912
    • Compass 905
      There is blood on lots of hands
      May 9
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      Compass... Healthcare is different... The rest of the software world will operate under strict regulations in time .... A programmers mistake can kill people... More and more every day....
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      I was in healthcare long before selling my soul to tech...I know the deal
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Why the fuck aren't there any whistle-blowers yet?
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      What job will they get in the middle of corn country if Boeing folds? Of course there are not...
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Compass, probably after you left, even the healthcare industry got fucked up. We just haven't discovered it yet, because it looks like net progress.
      May 9
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      I'll say it again..."nobody wants to pay for software"... We gotta change that... Nobody wants to pay for it.... Nobody wants to take the time to do it right ... They just want $ $$$$$$$
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      Look up FDA 510(k) testing...that’s probably the future of what aviation has to go through. It’s a pain, but it does work (mostly).
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      Fair, cydf26. It’s sad, because the women and men building these systems almost always care about these things and would like (and are capable) of doing this testing.
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Agreed. Passionate people who are in it to do it right will never have a problem with delays. Adverse event reporting in drugs or holding off shipping software for months for even 1 bug - should be a matter of pride in quality of work!
      May 9
  • Microsoft / Engnotagamer
    Well, airbus A320 had enough space under the wing to start a new line with more efficient larger engine (A320 neo) with minimal redesign. The 737 didn’t have the space to do the same thing so a good engineering decision would have been to design a plane from scratch with bigger engine.
    Unfortunately, they decided to force through and to put larger engines on the existing 737 (roughly). But to do that, they had to move the engine forward which basically change the Cg. The Cg is supposed to be in the middle of the wing but instead it’s shifted forward which makes the plane unstable. It would have been a massive red flag to have this kind of thing on a early design.

    Tbh, i was working for Airbus when they made this decision and at the time we thought it was a mistake. It was 8 or 10 years ago. I guarantee you plenty of people know!
    May 91
    • Amazon Jеff Bezоs
      It sounds almost like they were following Amazon’s leadership principles.
      May 9
  • Microsoft BlueScreen
    Certification (QA) was taken on by Boeing instead of the FAA, at the approval of the FAA. Oversight was lax.

    Hey, at least they have QA. Those days at Microsoft are gone. Why do you think we have Windows recalls and QFEs with critical fixes more than ever?

    Now, back to Boeing. As a result of larger more powerful engines, and charges to placement on the wings, MCAS was developed. Only a 737 MAX issue. MCAS had a single point of failure because they were only taking a reading from a single AOA sensor. Boeing customers had to pay to get the extra software feature that would take measurements from both AOA sensors, and alert the pilots if there was a discrepancy between the two. That feature will now be standard equipment with the MCAS software update, plus it won’t activate repeatedly...like it did in two crashes.

    Having MCAS only use a single AOA sensor, so it had a single point of failure, was not a missed feature. No way that it was missed. There are so many redundant systems on an airplane. This had no redundancy, unless you paid for that extra feature. No way that was an oversight.

    How do I know this? Friends on different sections of the 737 flight line.
    May 93
    • Yahoo / Eng
      eanN64

      YahooEng

      BIO
      getting to know things
      eanN64more
      At least one redundancy Must be a mandatory feature.
      May 10
    • Microsoft gGpp32
      Boeing believed that the cockpit warning light was standard. The engineers realized later that it would only work when customers purchased a different optional indicator which you mentioned. Boeing sat on this internal report for a year till 700 souls were lost. They then again lied to FAA. This is all over the news since 5th May.
      Also, Boeing is now telling the pilots that the same "premium" system will not alert the pilots of sensor disagreement till about 400 feet above ground, contrary to previous belief that the system will prevent a take off under this circumstance.
      May 10
    • Google Methane
      This has been my understanding. Great answer.
      May 10
  • Southwest Airlines ajskdlflsm
    Interesting to see all the non-airline/non-aviation industry employees give "credible" statements on what happened 🍿 shout-out to the one Boeing employee on this thread lol
    May 99
    • Compass 905
      I’m pretty sure all the SWEs skipped their industrial eng and human-factors courses...they can barely comm. with other humans
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      We're talking about software, not fluid dynamics or mechanics or electrical. Feel bad for the non-software workers at Boeing.
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      I’m a non-software Engineer at Boeing, and yes it sucks to be us right now. I don’t even work on this damn program (I work on the the 777 and 777X) and company morale is pretty low right now.
      May 9
    • Southwest Airlines ajskdlflsm
      Sorry to hear that, AXV9083. All of us at Southwest are rooting for you to emerge from this better than before!
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      🙏 Hang in there, friend. We need conscientious people to stay there, for the good of the people!
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      Thanks guys! Much appreciated. Glad to know not everyone sees us as employees with no morals.
      May 9
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      I think you meant "morale" is pretty low.
      The "moral" was low and may still be at the executive levels of the company. Not any different at any other company mind you.
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      Thank you, yes that’s what I meant. I’ve updated my comment.
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      Wish I could send y’all a pizza or something...maybe cookies? 🍪
      May 9
  • Cisco / ITbigreddog
    Why did you mention your TC for this Boeing question ?
    May 97
    • VMware vmk007
      Blind obligations. TC or tgfo. in reality, it's not relevant. Blind is an anonymous community.
      May 9
    • Intuit tgfi
      You’ll get it soon young blood
      May 9
    • Cisco / ITbigreddog
      What is tgfo ?
      May 9
    • Amazon betsman
      The get fck off
      May 9
    • TGFO: Takeoff Go-around, First Officer. It's standard operating procedure in case of a missed approach.
      May 10
    • Apple the
      It is GTFO not TGFO 🙂.
      May 10
    • So what's tgfi?
      May 10
  • Google jdjdjsj
    Boeing execs should be jailed if its bc of greed
    May 911
    • Cruise Automation iugfruo
      I’d suggest you take a good hard look around. Before you pass judgement
      May 9
    • Cruise Automation ggghhh
      I stand by what I said.
      May 9
    • Microsoft / Product
      Brazuka

      MicrosoftProduct

      PRE
      Bain & Company
      Brazukamore
      I agree people with ggghhh. Issue is NOT only management.
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      You’ve clearly never worked at Boeing. I Don’t agree with it, but most of the time management (along with finance) do ultimately do whatever they want, even if it is against recommendations by engineers. Just because your company operates a certain way means it’s the same for every company/industry.
      I’ll say it again, I don’t agree with this practice. I believe decisions should be based off data and testing.
      May 9
    • Cruise Automation ggghhh
      Is there no high level engineer who signed off on this? You can tell the public instead of just going through the company if they aren't going to listen. It's obviously a hard decision to make but it should be done.
      May 9
    • Cruise Automation ggghhh
      Do people not take ethics courses for engineering anymore?
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      I certainly did. I don’t work on this program, but I wouldn’t turn a blind eye on my program (777, 777X).
      If you read sources, the engineering team involved with this did bring up the issue but management still went along with their decision. Not sure if the eng. team knew that they would.
      Maybe they should place more emphasis on business ethics.
      May 9
    • Engineers are like ICs. They don’t make high level decisions in such companies. Things are different at bottoms up companies like FB where engineers have more say
      May 9
    • Microsoft / Other
      Negan

      MicrosoftOther

      PRE
      Blackbaud
      BIO
      I like bats
      Neganmore
      You know. Someone had to go along by writing the code. If they really truly believed than they wouldn’t write the code.
      May 11
    • Cruise Automation iugfruo
      All the holier than though people. Everybody says “I would obviously be the person who does the right thing”, but statistically it ain’t so. And i’m not really trying to say people are so horrible, and they always make the wrong choice. It might just be that it’s only this clear in the hindsight
      May 12
  • Microsoft Teslanos
    They used Tesla autopilot.
    May 97
    • eBay / ProductJ38aP
      By end of year Boeing will fly completely on autopilot level 5!
      May 9
    • Microsoft Teslanos
      Pure gold, J38aP!
      May 9
    • Amazon PotatoSale
      Are they also going to ditch radar and rely on some cheap cameras? I mean if a human can fly a plane visually who needs radar?
      May 9
    • Tesla lesscode
      K
      May 9
    • Oracle / Eng
      Hillary

      OracleEng

      PRE
      Amazon, Microsoft, Apple
      Hillarymore
      maybe they forgot their OTA update to prevent the plane from catching fire before they look off?
      May 9
    • Microsoft wtf_nfc
      I thought it was another DNS issue.
      May 9
    • Tesla 100thieves
      This.
      May 9
  • eBay abababbb
    I don’t ever want to get on one of those planes. Any idea how can u make sure you’re not on one of those (once they are allowed to fly again)when booking a flight?
    May 99
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      Flight itineraries usually say what plane it'll be.
      May 9
    • Microsoft
      Tier 1

      Microsoft

      BIO
      #1 in Prestige
      Tier 1more
      I only want to fly on these planes.

      Why? Because you can bet every pilot of them will now have studied ALL the details of that specific plane.
      May 9
    • eBay abababbb
      I prefer flying on something that has been working and tested for a long time than Boeing experimenting on me some little tested safety updates on a plane that just crashed twice
      May 9
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      Yeah, you go ahead.

      The rest of us will sit back and see what else Boeing has been hiding about those planes.
      May 9
    • Asurion obtlun
      Check your seat back pocket when you get on the plane. Or your boarding pass should say the type of aircraft.
      May 10
    • eBay / Eng
      mDBW53

      eBayEng

      PRE
      NVIDIA
      mDBW53more
      If you are looking at the seat back pocket it is already too late. Even if you somehow manage to get off the plane you’ll die in some weird way over the next week.
      May 10
    • American Express / Engwuali
      You can see the plane type before you book. Especially if you're booking from the airline website. If the airline changes plane type, they'll update the booking and you can request for a full refund or change without penalty.
      If you made the booking on an OTA website, you can lookup the PNR on the airline website to see the plane type.
      May 17
    • Microsoft
      Tier 1

      Microsoft

      BIO
      #1 in Prestige
      Tier 1more
      On what grounds can one cancel the flight if the plane type changes?
      May 17
    • New iLmS64
      Assuming you’re flying United (bc SF cmon)...
      Open United app.
      Home >
      Trip Details >
      Scroll to bottom >
      “Where is my plane coming from?” section lists aircraft type.

      Any status above Silver has free same-day flight changes. Good luck!👍🏻🍀
      6d
  • Zulily amie
    There’s time and place for cutting corners. When people’s life depends on your product, I think that’s the line.
    May 93
    • Nvidia
      420_Blaze

      Nvidia

      BIO
      BlazeMaster 10K
      420_Blazemore
      + Theranos as well
      May 9
    • Tableau YwcI06
      I told them not to build their angle of attack system on top of Magento.
      May 9
    • Amazon mUwn3e
      Theranos was just a flat out scam. They purposefully lied to make money, didnt even have a product
      May 9
  • Uber kundokkku
    Worst part is no media coverage or anything of that sort! They would have been happy to cover self driving car accidents or some Tesla stuffs! Meanwhile 700 families have lost their loved ones and their life will be broken and different after this incident ! It’s just not taken very seriously because it happened in Africa and other continents?
    May 91
    • Intel Hunting
      Its because Boeing provides jobs to lot of different states. If it goes belly up it would mean an economic crisis.
      May 9
  • Amazon fHsj42
    Boeing was still in denial after the second crash —- “complete confidence in the safety” of the 737 Max, and suggested remedy of software upgrades and increased training for pilots. Of course now we know the airplane is flawed and the MCAS software is a buggy hack to cover up real airplane engine related issue. It’s amazing BA stock is still in 350s.
    May 97
    • Oracle alwzangry
      This is what makes me sick. Their stock should have been cut to half. It tells me algorithms have completely taken over - purely based on news and sentiment analysis, which is related to the noise in the media.
      May 9
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      Oracle , you're right.... Look at the graphs... The stock market separated from the truth around 1995... And it's quite obvious in the graphs ...
      May 9
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      Do a simple linear regression... The R value drops after 1995.
      May 9
    • Bloomberg / Eng
      Fork()

      BloombergEng

      PRE
      Amazon
      Fork()more
      When anybody says "more training" or "more human processes" 5o address a systematic problem, I stop listening.
      May 9
    • Spotify smrtrchild
      Boeing is a lot more than their passenger jets, they're a government aerospace contractor, and their former executive is the acting and soon to-be Secretary of Defense. They and Lockheed Martin and others basically have an aerospace oligarchy (see the United Launch Alliance), and get billions in overpriced Federal contracts. So long as the Military Industrial Complex thrives, so too will Boeing, even as people die...
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      That's one reason why economy seems to be fine despite people not feeling it - because we haven't started a new war or have sold new weapons lately.
      May 9
    • American Express / Engwuali
      The stock is just a reflection of the impact to the company. Everyone knows this is not going to affect Boeing financially. They're big enough that they won't be held accountable for the misdirection.
      May 17
  • Oracle alwzangry
    They threw out the traditional values and brought in more "modern mindset and methodology".
    May 93
    • JCPenney Pano
      Agile? It's fine, they'll fix it in the next sprint.
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Shh
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      Omg
      May 9
  • To make it worse, MCAS kept on reactivating and pushing the angle down. Did some SWE forget to close the for loop ?
    May 90
  • Compass 905
    The idiot eng. team who worked on this project are going to be the reason the industry is going to be forced to get licenses to practice.
    May 94
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      You're right. Here come the regulators...
      May 9
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      Ha, because all final decisions are made by an engineering team. If you actually read sources you would know engineers did bring up this issue to management. I don’t work on this program but I can assure you it wasn’t the engineering teams fault.
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      Someone is going to take the fall...and it’s never the fat cats. It’s us minions down the ladder who have to deal with the blow.
      May 9
    • Spotify rhduejdb
      No. The root cause of the problem is that the new engines are too heavy for the airframe, changing its center of gravity.

      The airplane therefore has to be flown differently, at a different angle of attack. This makes the aircraft more susceptible to stalls.

      The sensors are an important dimension here, in terms of stall detection, but the reason the aircraft is more likely to stall is the heavy weight of the engines.

      This is on Boeing senior management. Boeing needed a new airframe design to compete with Airbus, but instead rushed out a product that is structurally unsound
      May 10
  • Travelers / Sales
    PDkM54

    TravelersSales

    BIO
    Fortune 100 Underwriter
    PDkM54more
    For a major disaster like this to happen, a lot has to go wrong:

    1) engine didn’t fit under wing
    2) installed anyway with poor workaround
    3) which fucked up the flight mechanics
    4) bad mechanics corrected with buggy software (mcas)
    5) product rushed to market
    6) pilots not trained on the new flight mechanics / mcas / how to disable it
    May 92
    • Oracle alwzangry
      And software guys said, "meh, (1-4) it's a one in a million probability. Ship it!"
      May 9
    • Netflix / Engsfo8492
      It's a little more egregious than pilots not being trained. The functionality was not documented in the manual, or the manual was just plain false in the case of Southwest Airlines.
      May 10
  • Amazon QzDv36
    This happens when finance people try to manage engineers! Highly complex products.. hopefully new CEO will change the culture and make it an engineering driven company again 7 years of Nerny
    May 91
    • Boeing / Eng
      AXV9083

      BoeingEng

      PRE
      Boeing
      AXV9083more
      This!!! Most decisions are made my management and finance not engineers unfortunately.
      May 9
  • Microsoft / Engnotagamer
    I mean... it’s like anything. You can blame the software as much as you want but the software can’t save a shitty hardware.
    And I don’t blame engineering. Quite the opposite. I believe that engineering wouldn’t have decided to remotorize the 737. They would have started a new program from scratch.
    Just another shitty executive decision!
    May 90
  • Google 4EVR
    They were in a rush to get out a long range at a cheaper cost. So they kept increasing the engine size without changing the basic flight structure. So they had to move the engines closer to the plane to avoid them hitting the runway. This screwed up the aerodynamics and the plane would go nose high. To avoid that they introduced an auto correction which will push the nose down. All good till now. But only when the auto correction malfunctioned. This caused the planes to crash in normal scenes.
    May 92
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      The worst part was that the auto-correction was connected to a *single* sensor on all models unless the buyer paid $80k extra to connect the other sensor (which apparently was shipped anyway)
      May 9
    • Expedia / Eng
      zappato

      ExpediaEng

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      zappatomore
      WTF!? That’s super shady.
      May 9
    • MGM Resorts joTz32
      Came here to say this. I'll just show myself out now. 😂
      May 9
    • Twitter / EngT Rex
      This ^
      May 10
  • Microsoft JimboJones
    'agile'
    May 92
    • Western Digital SanDisk
      Thats how you ship a half baked product then spend 3x the time to fix it.
      May 9
    • DoubleVerify Karius123
      It's a design and hardware problem. Don't blame the band aid they've put together in the form of software for the underlying issues.
      May 9
  • Nvidia driveeasy
    Why implement MCAS instead of a warning telling the crew that the nose was pitching up too much? Is there any record of MCAS activating successfully and correcting a dangerous situation?
    May 91
    • Google YAPTRF
      Warning light requires training all the 737 pilots for a new plane type.
      May 9
  • Apple etubrute
    Vox video presents it perfectly. It was just short sighted greed as a quick fix to keep up with Airbus. Must be really demoralizing for Boeing workers who had to live with the terrible decision of their leadership team.

    And Boeing pay is ($$ out of $$$$$).
    May 91
    • United Technologies rohr
      Agree, it's gotta be demoralizing for the guys (and ladies) on the shop floor who take great pains to follow safe manufacturing practices, only to have a few engineering/management decisions undo it all.
      May 9
  • Bloomberg / Eng
    Fork()

    BloombergEng

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    Fork()more
    May 90
  • Ellie Mae oroU53
    I am an investor, and I am mad with the way the management is dealing with this stupid situation
    May 92
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      I bet they can fix it in 10 minutes... But nobody will believe them..

      It's probably 10 lines of code...
      May 9
    • eBay / Eng
      mDBW53

      eBayEng

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      mDBW53more
      When I worked at NVIDIA there was something on our newest card that blew away ATI’s. It was number of shaders or something, but it was very critical. But the thing is it was something 100x or 1000x better. The marketing team knew we couldn’t make such a claim and have the public believe us so we just settled on claiming it was 10x more and waited for ATI to catch up with their marketing.
      May 10
  • Deutsche Bank hgfcbcfy
    The crappy management will still have N-million bonuses instead of be put in a jail.
    May 90
  • Microsoft / MgmtDunph
    Fuck Boeing.
    May 90
  • Deutsche Bank hgfcbcfy
    This is Agile
    May 90
  • Uber / Eng
    @w@

    UberEng

    PRE
    Capital One
    @w@more
    Outsourced code
    May 93
    • Apple etubrute
      Don’t know about outsourced code. But bad integration with the sensors and code that can’t reasonably reconcile bad sensor data is just an epic fail. However it was pieced together, it falls right onto Boeing’s feet.

      I don’t know about you but I don’t want to fly on a plane that needs software to prevent the plane from pitching up into a stall because of shitty aeronautical design.
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Like taking faulty action outside of pilot's control! Agree totally!
      May 9
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      What's with all the Uber folks complaining about outsourcing on this thread? Has uber been doing that recently to try to make some profit and you all are salty?
      May 9
  • Personal Capital jlAv38
    But what was Boeing TC vs Airbus? What about YOE?
    May 92
    • JetSmarter OuSx45
      Can someone explain the acronyms?
      May 9
    • Personal Capital ffaa88
      Tc total compensation, including bonus and rsu
      Yoe years of experience
      May 9
  • Nvidia driveeasy
    Imagine your cruise control not disengaging when you press the brakes. Or the Toyota runaway car a few years back. Boeing sold the plane as yet another 737. They knew it was not the same. That is negligence.
    May 90
  • Facebook sw1tch
    Idiot no-nothing MBAs were the reason for the mess. They get to tell engineers what to do because in our culture we worship dummies who have swagger and know 'business.' I would love to see the internal language used to get buy-in on charging extra for f*cking safety features. What kind of disgusting team of people could rationalize that? Do you think they were hoping for impact?
    May 105
    • Oracle alwzangry
      They would have used adjectives that demean engineers as (geeks) who don't know how to take calculated or mitigated risks. They're in the wrong profession if they bring their case-studies and knowledge of psychology of the buyer and pricing models where safety should be paramount and the most pessimistic person should head quality control.
      May 10
    • Facebook sw1tch
      Absolutely 💯. The whole situation is analagous to the Ford Pinto scandal in the 60s or 70s where safety was compromised away on a profit gamble. It's fine to push limits and make big bets when your product is some JavaScript app... But when peoples lives are on the line put the Eggheads in the front seat and listen up. This whole thing is a tort case waiting to happen...
      May 10
    • Bloomberg / Eng
      Fork()

      BloombergEng

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      Fork()more
      You know, Uncle Bob (Rob Martin) gave a talk not too long before the first Boeing incident and in of the things he said, is that it's time for us to take our profession seriously. Too much is riding "I guess it works". He said, if we don't take our job seriously, someone will force us to and we won't like it. I agree 100%

      Software is in everything. Your JavaScript app could be what erroneously doesn't give someone the loan or insurance claim they need. To you, it's a shitty front end but to end users, it's their livelihood.

      My father made a career of building various Line of business apps for various local companies and he said the same despite no more than trade school degree. Things are critical to people's well being even if they are not life critical.

      I
      May 11
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Just like everyone who knows words doesn't become an author or a playwright, not everyone who knows syntax, tools, and algorithms should become software engineers. That boat sailed long ago, but it needs to be called out when designing critical software. I don't care if Instagram crashes once a year or less, but I don't think that anyone with leetcode and FANG experience _automatically_ qualifies them to write control systems for nuclear reactors or "appliances" that carry humans.
      May 11
    • Nvidia Ufd
      The majority of software engineers take their profession seriously. Uncle Bob lives in a fantasy world he created for himself.
      May 11
  • So much misunderstanding and bs here. There are mistakes but none that was outright criminal. In this case could end up as the lack of training to pitch no new training required to be the cause of pilots fighting a system they didn't understand why it responded the way it did. The speed at which the plane was traveling was also way too fast at that moment. Been tracking every article out since the incident but nothing looks conclusive. Only thing that's conclusive is everyone trying to CYA all the way down to workers that try to put someone else behind them for the public bears to eat by justifying they're not part of the problem. We don't know anything yet. Let's wait for NTSB to complete their analysis.
    May 94
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Don't you criticize the anger here! I knew someone who died on a MAX8. Don't imply like the pilots were flying kites until the previous day and got certified that morning. We've been around long enough to know exactly how this happened. Just like a software contract disrupted analysis that could have prevented 9/11. I'll be glad if I was wrong and we're confident that we got the complete and correct fix.
      May 9
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      Username checks out
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      Oh yeah. Now gtfo. ☺️
      May 9
    • Google xkvpspecmg
      Oh, I didn't even see yours. I meant the sock puppet.
      May 9
  • Google OAoK43
    I can't believe that they don't have three sensors...

    Compared to other industries, being in Tech. is literally a license to print money. And the situation is only going to get worse, since the easy money is all in tech.

    In the meanwhile, China is going to build up its industries. Sigh.
    May 91
    • Qualcomm / EngggIN&OUT
      Ikr... a $10 sensor becomes the single point of failure... ok, maybe it’s an expensive sensor, $5000? Still...
      May 9
  • Bloomberg / Eng
    Fork()

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    Engineering disasters are usually combinations of things that if they occurred by themselves, would be handled OK. It's when they manifest in unpredictable patterns do serious problems occur. I would venture to say that almost every engineering disaster is caused by this.
    May 91
    • Albertsons rvUd7211
      It's usually a mechanic unscrewing a bolt because they're bored or insurance fraud or something
      May 9
  • Indeed / EngBarney 🦖
    Software played a part but it seems to be a systematic issue with how the entire company does business
    May 100
  • Square 2828752079
    Sounds like it was a series of problems. The disagree light was only included with other options, this was never made clear to airlines. Pilot's also lacked training they should have received, for that the FAA is to blame for allowing Boeing to self regulate.
    May 90
  • Google ok ?
    🍿
    May 90
  • VMware vmk007
    It's a issue with the system. The mcas system, validation system, certification system. It's a system failure, period.
    May 90
  • Microsoft Tictoff🍸
    Greed
    May 90
  • Veritas qGcX07
    Clear inefficiency in software and need to hire more efficient testers
    May 911
    • Veritas qGcX07
      Yes eventually that have to happen but I guess they already might have the automation but this looks like missing test case
      May 9
    • Compass 905
      The key element in this case is that they forgot humans are operating these systems.
      May 9
    • Veritas qGcX07
      Every company these days have automation. That is not the issue. Issue would have been someone not noticed test case that need to be added in automation. And took so many lives
      May 9
    • Expedia qkDp46
      This is why you’re in the backup software biz, not aerospace engineering. Yikes.
      May 9
    • Expedia qkDp46
      I can just imagine it now:
      “Yessir we have a test case that validates that we are receiving non-zero data from our single AoA sensor!” (Who cares whether it’s accurate or not)
      “Good job Smithers! Automate that bullshit test!”
      May 9
    • Veritas qGcX07
      ya I know you are trying hard but you are not getting automation requires human input
      May 9
    • Veritas qGcX07
      And if input is not accurate even automation can’t do magic
      May 9
    • Expedia qkDp46
      Only a QA automation lackey would ever say Boeing “missed a test case”, to put it in plain enough terms for you. You’re just like every other automation tester: unable to see past the blinders you wear on your eyes to look at a bigger picture. Just an Excel spreadsheet with those test cases someone else came up with and told you to automate
      May 9
    • Veritas qGcX07
      you are blaming automation tester? I am fine with that. I don’t have strings attached to any role
      May 9
    • Spotify rhduejdb
      Not a software problem at all. It is a design flaw in the aircraft, specifically in Boeing senior management’s selection of engines that are too heavy for the airframe.

      The software issues are a smokescreen.
      May 10
  • Command Alkon cydf26
    You need to fail every single sensor on purpose one by one and watch what the software does .. it has to be done....
    May 94
    • Oracle alwzangry
      They offered the airlines a choice of a plane with a single sensor instead of one with a redundant second sensor! Like your car would get seat-belts if you purchase the base+1 model.
      May 9
    • Command Alkon cydf26
      This is where you don't do that... You sell the best , period... Or you refuse to sell.. we MUST manage customer experience...

      Uncle Bob says that if we can't get our management and customers on board with what needs to be done , were unprofessional.... He basically says this in the book "Clean Code". He's at least mostly right...

      Somehow we have failed if we allowed "cheap" software to be built and sold.
      May 9
    • Oracle alwzangry
      We've convinced ourselves that software developed by people in their spare time, with crowd-sourced/hacker testing, will take care of problems over the long term. Idiots don't understand that some industries cannot tolerate anything less than perfect when they first leave the doors. We sent people to the moon when computers were in their infancy. Now we put our best minds to help gossip on supercomputers in our hands.
      May 9
    • Nvidia Ufd
      Uncle Bob is an old fart who thinks he is Confucius. One of his theses is that a software engineer must work 60 hours a week. Screw that. If you read carefully his books you can "Clear"ly see that the dude has ADHD. He confidently brought to the whole industry a system of stopgaps for his own shortcomings.
      May 11
  • Microsoft / EngdKWp30
    Karma biting Boeing in their proverbial arrogant ass yet again. Their management sounds horrible. Lost respect in the company after they tried to torpedo Bombardier’s C Series program, which was actually a modern clean sheet design and will likely be a substantial threat since Bombardier almost certainly had plans to enlarge the plane - now it’s in Airbus’s hands.

    The 737 Max is just a cheap shortcut to avoid a costly clean sheet design. Iterating on a 50 year old plane design originally intended for short-haul regional flights. Shameful.
    May 101

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