Do you all agree with this?

Lyft LadyDev
Dec 24, 2017 112 Comments

I saw a retweet from one of my favorite tech journalists this morning. How prevalent do you all think the pay disparity is in the tech industry?

“Dudes: If you consider yourself a feminist and an ally and if your heart goes out to all the women who have been abused in the workplace but don’t know what to do, be a pal and tell three women you work closely with how much you make.”

Do you all agree with this?

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TOP 112 Comments
  • Lyft LadyDev
    OP
    It’s absolutely not a myth, though I wouldn’t be surprised if it is more equal at tech companies.
    Dec 24, 2017 27
    • Microsoft
      JoanHarris

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things. I have left Microsoft and am working at Amazon but, of course, my opinions are my own.
      JoanHarrismore
      What I don’t understand is why some men are so invested in “debunking” sexism. It seems a little broken.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Some of us have women coworkers, and we know that some women aren’t beyond making up stuff to get ahead. We believe in fairness, and that goes both ways.

      Catching when you make a logical mistake doesn’t mean we want to debunk anything. It just means you made a mistake.

      If you believe that there is sexism, it becomes a religion. That’s the point we want to avoid.

      This is what we are seeing here:

      One woman says “sexism!” Another says “yeah!”.... and so on. Not a single person bothers to double check the facts. This is how innocent people go to jail.

      I am reminded of 12 angry men.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Boeing / Eng
      1engineer

      Boeing Eng

      PRE
      Boeing
      1engineermore
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Lol, I'm the only person who bothered to even provide facts here, and you still manage to pretend you're the ones being rational and using data. I think we're actually seeing very typical male blindness and denial. Because if sexism is real then some of their achievements may be the result of their gender and not their own amazing sparkling specialness, drive and effort. And *obviously* that isn't true.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Ad hominem. Let’s see where this goes.

      I am in a minority. Grew up with 4 siblings and abusive parents who barely made minimum wage. Pretty sure my success, whatever it may be (or lacking of such), is entirely due to my own sparkling specialness.

      What I haven’t done is blame on my situation without looking at *both sides*.

      What i have witnessed is a woman coworker who somehow figured out my bonus and complained about it. She neglected to mention that I am more experienced (having started in software at 11), more educated (postdoc whereas she just has a bs from a no name school), produced more, and all my peers looked up to me, etc. all she had to complain on was that we’re the same age and level. This is of course n of 1, but regardless, you need to see all sides.

      Someone comes up and says “same level, same age, pay should be the same”.... i call bs.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Well, you failed at ignoring it. And I hate to tell you, but the entire concept of bias in the workplace is an ad hominem, because it discusses the idea that some people might hold unfounded beliefs that affect their decisions. So if you think discussing motivation is bad, maybe you can't be a useful contributor on this topic.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Who said discussing is bad? Straw-man.

      Discussing is good if you look at both sides.

      Otherwise no new ideas can be discovered. People go to church for that.

      A support group is not where we go to make decisions with wide spread consequences.

      Sounds a lot like:
      “You don’t agree with me so you can’t be a useful contributor”

      Maybe not everyone would agree with you on that.

      We want fairness. It doesn’t seem like you do.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      You said that talking about your motivations needs to be ignored. That carries a strong implication that you think it's bad. Since that's the topic, I don't know what you think you can contribute while refusing to engage it. But feel free to just pretend that you are dismissing me because of my "not wanting fairness" and you not liking ad hominem arguments 😂
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft / Eng
      MP3

      Microsoft Eng

      BIO
      Troll living under the I-5 overpass
      MP3more
      Can you all please stop replying to @CRJK31? He/she has zero interest in understanding the root of the problem and coming up with a way to fix it.

      You’re wasting your time with this clown.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      JoanHarris

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things. I have left Microsoft and am working at Amazon but, of course, my opinions are my own.
      JoanHarrismore
      CRJK31 - Generally, I think we should think critically about our opinions - on both sides of this issue.

      There is ample evidence (I assume you are capable of Googling it yourself) that indicates there is a difference in how behavior is interpreted when you are a woman instead of a man. The behaviors that are most beneficial to promotion in the workplace are often not socially acceptable for women to use. Trust me, I’ve tried doing what my male boss suggested - and he was surprised at the negative backlash I got.

      I will not argue that nobody ever sees sexism where is doesn’t exist. I would, however say that sexism is pretty pervasive - sometimes subtle. Sometimes not.

      I think everyone loses from sexism - not just women. We just lose in different ways. The only people who really benefit from the patriarchy are the patriarchs - not most men or women. Maybe we should stop fighting each other and turn our eye to the assholes in charge. 😉
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Amazon #FakeNews#
    This is a myth. For the same role, men and women generally make the same - this is especially true for tech companies.
    Dec 24, 2017 9
    • Microsoft
      JoanHarris

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Goddess of sexual pleasure and other pleasant things. I have left Microsoft and am working at Amazon but, of course, my opinions are my own.
      JoanHarrismore
      True but also not the real issue in disparity. The real disparity tends to be access to the best projects and promo velocity. I believe that was the key aspect of the lawsuit against Microsoft a while back
      Dec 24, 2017
    • Google intfrg
      With the strong interest in addressing this at the big tech companies right now, I think the pendulum is firmly swinging the other way.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • New / Eng eBVT37
      Then telling them won't be an issue...
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Google intfrg
      Yes but them telling me is no issue either ...
      Dec 25, 2017
    • New / Eng eBVT37
      Sure but people are offended by saying why not just tell them. They made no claim that any specific individual is overpaid. Why not just eliminate all doubt?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Google intfrg
      Because it's none of their business what I as an individual make?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Aon Hewitt qTXq04
      Definitely an issue I've been in HR and seen guys straight out of college double their salaries on 2 years and seen women with 10 years experience have the same salary as the doubled value
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Google barnum
      Why do you think that happens? I agree we should all be more open with pay to reduce the informational asymmetry between employees and employer. But why are women exposed to a different set of data points than men?
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Aon Hewitt qTXq04
      No one shares, being open about it will definitely decrease this gap. My manager shares ways to decrease the gap but I don't see other managers doing the same when I ask my peers.
      Jan 2, 2018
  • Amazon / Eng
    Hooliganss

    Amazon Eng

    BIO
    Engineer at AWS
    Hooliganssmore
    With the crazy disproportional pay going on, I’m surprised we don’t see companies employing only females. Seems like it’d make the most business sense.
    Dec 24, 2017 15
    • Amazon / Eng
      Hooliganss

      Amazon Eng

      BIO
      Engineer at AWS
      Hooliganssmore
      The assumption of course being that given the choice to make significantly more money (generally workforce is the largest cost), they pass up on the offer?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Yep. See also: racism in hiring over history.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Amazon / Eng
      Hooliganss

      Amazon Eng

      BIO
      Engineer at AWS
      Hooliganssmore
      Interesting, I hadn’t realized all companies choose to operate sub-optimally. How do we go about ensuring an exact 50:50 split?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      I feel that it is probably true if the competition for worker is not so fierce as it is now. When there’s a lot of supply and not enough demand, racism and other factors come into play. When the opposite where hiring the wrong or suboptimal candidate can mean falling behind the 3 competitors, i am not sure people would behave the same.
      I feel this is why the data generally shows roughly equal pay in tech....
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      The people disagreeing with this comment want you to think that LITERALLY EVERY BUSINESS is too sexist to take advantage of this easy opportunity for profit that everyone else is leaving on the table. They want you to think that even women in engineering and finance are too sexist to see that they can easily make a shitload of money by hiring women.

      Think about whether that's really realistic.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Id say I'm arguing that it doesn't happen enough to make a difference. Are you also unfamiliar with the amazing number of companies that complain they can't find workers and yet refuse to hire people who would be perfectly capable of doing the job because they don't meet arbitrary qualifications? How economically irrational! It must not happen often enough to affect the industry, I guess. Same argument for ineffective interview processes, I assume they're not real. And because I'm the only person on Blind with internet access, I will provide you with evidence of an actual example of your thesis, that there exist people who are arbitraging sexist for profit - https://www.glamour.com/story/looksmart-founder-women-paid-less
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      That's one person, in Australia, in 2014. If this were really such an easy moneymaking opportunity, someone in Silicon Valley would've picked up on it. As Twitter said, it comes up in every one of these threads... it's a really obvious idea.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Oh, get google ffs femalefoundersfund.com
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      So why didn’t males complain about the unequal gender ratio funded by that group?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      Female founders fund isn't the same thing at all. We were talking about the pay gap, remember? The idea that women do the same work as men for less pay, which would mean someone could save a lot of money by only hiring women? That's not what FFF does.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • Apple / Eng
    bender-😒

    Apple Eng

    PRE
    Microsoft
    bender-😒more
    Nah. I don’t even tell my parents how much I make. Women, please just ask for MOAR. You’re worth whatever you can get. Same with us. Ask for what you want.
    Dec 24, 2017 1
    • Hollar glwpt
      When women ask it is perceived much differently than when men ask. Nonetheless I agree that women should find ways to ask.
      Jan 3, 2018
  • Lyft insomniac
    At my old place had this discussion with a female co-worker, she was underpaid. I told her ask for a raise, like yesterday. She was all about avoiding that conversation at all costs. You can't get a raise if you don't ask or interview, doesn't magically rain money
    Dec 25, 2017 9
    • Lyft LadyDev
      OP
      So, you are assuming women don’t ask for a raise based on your anecdotal evidence of a woman you worked with who didn’t like confrontation?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Lyft insomniac
      No you're making that assumption. I'm sharing an anecdote because I believe it is useful to ask for money if you want it.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      Google actually studied this for promotions... women and men were as likely to get promoted when they requested it, but women were less likely to request it. So they started a campaign to encourage women to go for promotion, and it worked.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Boeing / Eng
      1engineer

      Boeing Eng

      PRE
      Boeing
      1engineermore
      Whereas in Microsoft Satya said to "trust the system" and women should not ask for a raise.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Lyft insomniac
      Saying "woman should not ask for a raise" sounds like one of those things that one wouldn't say if they were the kind of person who thought before they opened their mouth.. so many fun people in tech management
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      You might be interested in looking up some of the research on the different reactions you get when you ask for a raise as a woman compared to doing so as a man. It's pretty widely established that women being aggressive gets worse reactions than men doing the same thing.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      Well, you definitely won't get a raise if you don't ask for it. Refusing to ask because you think you have less chance than a man of getting it is bad logic.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      People do actually get raises without asking for them. So if you think that asking for a raise will reduce your chances of getting one, it would be silly to ask for one. You might be incorrect in your facts, but it's not illogical.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      People get raises without asking for them at companies with automatic raises (like Facebook!). Not so much at other companies. If you think asking for a raise will lower your chance of getting one, you're working at a uniquely bad company.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • Twitter zUwB37
    Telling co-workers just seems like a terrible idea even if it's the right thing in principle. Discuss with all your friends at different companies, male and female. Helps everyone.
    Dec 24, 2017 0
  • Netflix idwO72
    If I walked up to my female Coworkers n told them my salary they’d look at me like I was a loser. Probably assume I am bragging and laugh about it and tell everyone behind my back
    Dec 26, 2017 1
    • VMware / Eng nonamehere
      That’s not the goal. Dont proactively share your salary with people you normally wouldn’t. That’s common sense.
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Lyft LadyDev
    OP
    I’m down with pay transparency. Tech companies like Buffer do this. Seems to work well. http://www.businessinsider.com/why-companies-have-open-salaries-and-pay-transparency-2017-4
    Dec 25, 2017 1
    • New / Eng eBVT37
      I agree and think people obsessed with pay will be either way. Yeah if you have large pay discrepancies for people with the same job it will draw up flags. Don't me mad at your coworkers though, be mad at the company.
      Dec 25, 2017
  • Facebook sauza
    At the companies where I've seen numbers, there hasn't been a gender pay gap after accounting for location + role + level.

    Sharing comp info is still good to do, but you should share it with everyone, not just your lady pals. I did it once and discovered I was paid wayyyyy below average for my location + role + level.
    Dec 25, 2017 6
    • Lyft insomniac
      Wtf is all this obsession with a level. Can we stop playing this garbage game made up by corporations? A coder is a coder is a coder...
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      Some coders are more experienced, capable, or productive than others. A coder who can take a vague problem description and design a robust solution is worth more to the company than someone who needs their hand held through basic tasks.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Lyft insomniac
      Yes the later is someone who is bad at their job.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      Well, a lot of new grads are like that. It is what it is. They get better over time, and they get promoted.

      Even among people who work independently, there are differences in skill and scope of work. Level is a way to recognize that. Lots of people can tweak a webpage, not as many can design good frameworks or redesign core algorithms.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Lyft insomniac
      Because most schools teach nothing and newbs coming to job with no knowledge no experience or out of some two weeks boot camp. You been programming a few years then you can write a framework stop pretending writing a framework is some sort of rocket science
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Facebook sauza
      You're proving my point. Do you think someone fresh out of school, who can't write that stuff, is as valuable to the company as someone who's been programming a few years who can? No? That's why there are levels.

      If you don't think there's a difference in skill between different programmers, you must not have much experience. Keep looking, you'll notice it soon enough.
      Dec 27, 2017
  • Box / Eng UTKy63
    It is naive to compare comp directly between men and women. We should take into consideration of the contribution and performance of each individual as well ! Otherwise it is just a shit show that actually humiliates women
    Dec 25, 2017 2
    • Lyft LadyDev
      OP
      Who said that isn’t being taken into account?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Google intfrg
      Based on the instructions in that tweet, chances are it wouldn't be the case for all three women you share it with..
      Dec 25, 2017
  • New / Eng eBVT37
    How about this everyone should know what people make because doing anything different gives employer advantage. If you pay fairly employers wouldnt care and men and women would know hey we get paid the same.

    The fact that there is backlash to this suggests that there are unfair pay discrepancies you don't want people to know about to me.
    Dec 25, 2017 0
  • Expedia thankful
    How about other industries where women make way more than men for same role? Anyone persuing that?
    Dec 25, 2017 6
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Which ones are they?
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      That doesn't say anything about the same role - the article actually says that the average woman in those industries makes more than the average man in those industries, and suggests that this could be because the average women is in a more senior role than the average man.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Yes and now you begin to pick on it the same way everyone picks on the other dataset... point made.
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Tableau CRJK31
      Your dataset doesn't even claim to answer the question, you might as well have presented an episode of sesame street if you were going to claim that rejecting anything was "picking on it". I would love to know what "the other dataset" is, I know of more than one. Plenty of people criticize collection methodologies, controls, samples, etc, of all those datasets and when that comes from someone who has bothered to learn what those were, it's valuable. Are you completely unable to tell the difference between informed and uninformed debate?
      Dec 26, 2017
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      None of your datasets answers any questions either.
      Ad hominem.

      I am done until you can grow past 5th grade.
      Dec 26, 2017
  • Amazon pc93
    I just told 3 of my co-workers and none of them told me what they make. I think they are being nice to me and don't wanna make me feel bad about my comp 😂😂
    Dec 25, 2017 2
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Haha that’s better than “i told my coworkers. They just laughed and left”
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Lyft insomniac
      I'm all for knowing what everyone makes. It's in the company's interests to not let us know. If you can handle knowing you may be paid less than others and also trust your coworkers not to get sour if they make less, that is. Some people can be really sore.. like goes ballistic.. in that case best to avoid sharing
      Dec 25, 2017
  • Postmates / Eng Bttrfly
    All the women on here should compile a list of companies that are good and bad for women. We can rank them.
    Dec 25, 2017 2
    • Postmates Failmates
      If there was a list for bad companies for women Postmates should be at the top. Someone started a discussion for best companies for women.
      Dec 27, 2017
    • Postmates / Eng Bttrfly
      So, let’s compile that list!
      Dec 28, 2017
  • Postmates / Eng Bttrfly
    I love ‪Nitasha Tiku for tweeting this out! I would LOVE to hear what my male colleagues are making at Postmates! Given the company’s toxic bro culture, I wouldn’t be surprised if many men make more than female coworkers in the same position.

    @LadyDev, can you tag Postmates in your post? I can’t tag the company in my response.
    Dec 24, 2017 2
    • Lyft LadyDev
      OP
      @bttrfly I gotchu. Done. Tagged them 😊
      Dec 24, 2017
    • Google WqeK47
      @bttrfly you should get out of Postmates like now. Alll the execs are leaving which is a sign to GTFO!! Plus that place is hella toxic.
      Feb 3, 2018
  • Google intfrg
    I don't actually work closely with any women, can't seem to get them interested in embedded! *shrugs*
    Dec 25, 2017 1
    • Microsoft
      yMcg47

      Microsoft

      BIO
      Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
      yMcg47more
      Bedded?
      Dec 25, 2017
  • eBay gojilla
    It's astonishing that people are clamoring to be paid the same amount as everyone else. Stop comparing pays, learn to value your skills, and negotiate. What if you deserve more than what someone else's making at the same level?
    Dec 25, 2017 1
    • Tableau CRJK31
      That sounds a lot like a comparison.
      Dec 25, 2017
  • Symantec LLbv28
    If you really want equality, make society Gender Neutral. I have many friends both male and female who have lower pay as they didn’t negotiate much.
    Dec 25, 2017 0
  • Microsoft
    yMcg47

    Microsoft

    BIO
    Amicitiae nostrae memoriam spero sempiternam fore
    yMcg47more
    How about we have all female coworkers tell their male coworkers their comp, then we can say higher or lower
    Dec 25, 2017 0
  • Boeing / Eng
    1engineer

    Boeing Eng

    PRE
    Boeing
    1engineermore
    Some engineers (mostly PacNW area) are unionized at Boeing, so salary charts are published. On average, women tend to be paid the same per level. However there is a dramatic drop in ratio of women in higher level engineering jobs at Boeing. Entry level is as high as 30% women, highest level is around 5% women.

    The last photo I saw last year honoring new Technical Fellows was like a 'Where's Waldo' for women and people of color.
    Dec 25, 2017 3
    • Apple / Eng
      bender-😒

      Apple Eng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      bender-😒more
      Pretty sure the unions are primarily restricted only to aerospace. Incidentally, I’m curious if you feel that SPEEA is still bringing value at the lazy B? I hear you got rid of the pension over there. Man, that was a golden parachute while it lasted.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Boeing / Eng
      1engineer

      Boeing Eng

      PRE
      Boeing
      1engineermore
      Well unions can be any group of employees with a common interest (except management).

      We did, they had a contract vote before a large group of employees hit retirement age and I suspect they decided to screw the young folks. I still have a soft freeze for my pension, but now since it's value is / will be less to me I do not feel tied to Boeing anymore.

      I am pretty involved with the union so I do see value when management is willing to work together with us to solve a problem, but that tends to be less monetary in value.
      Dec 25, 2017
    • Apple / Eng
      bender-😒

      Apple Eng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      bender-😒more
      Bummer to see it go. Pension plus 401k really was the best deal in the industry. Yeah, I got the feeling that the predominately senior level heavy SPEEA members voted to let it go. The pension was never fully appreciated by the young new hires anyways until it’s gone. Keep staying involved.
      Dec 25, 2017
  • Expedia Alp
    But some women want to pursue their dreams in tech, not other industries. So this discussion should focus on women in tech.
    Dec 25, 2017 0
  • New IQak60
    Women make generally the same as men in the same job, it isn't that. It's promotional opportunities and actually getting a foot in the door to get the job that is the problem.
    Dec 25, 2017 0
  • Microsoft / Eng ShortBTC
    What if I know I get paid more than others on the team, even to men more senior to me. Won’t I be skewing the data?
    Dec 25, 2017 0
  • VMware / Eng nonamehere
    My close friends know my salary or have a rough idea. Same concept.
    Dec 24, 2017 0