After seeing so many posts drumming up support for S386, packed with misleading statements and demanding "fairness", here is a post to seek support to permanently kill this selfish, repugnant bill.
S386 removes the 7% per-country cap for Green Card (GC) approvals. This is being pushed by a well-funded pro-Indian lobby group. Immigration Voice (IV) has been at the front of this campaign. It's being pushed because there is currently a huge backlog of Indian applicants and their wait time has grown to decades (some claim 150 years). Even though Indians are effectively capped at 20% because they get spill-over quota from countries which don't use up their quota, they still have long wait times.
The reason there is a huge backlog of Indians waiting for GCs is due to a couple of factors. Firstly, there is no per-country cap on H1Bs, one of the primary paths to a GC. Secondly, Indian Consulting Companies (ICCs) have exploited weaknesses in the U.S. immigration system. They submit multiple H1B applications per person, lie on the applications to make candidates appear high-skilled and other tricks. The U.S. immigration officials don't have the tools or resources to combat this fraud, so this has resulted in hundreds of thousands of low-skilled cheaters from India flooding the system. Even when consuming the spillover quota and getting 20% of GCs per year, with so many people waiting, wait times are massive.
The tragedy of this is that there are honest, skilled Indians who are stuck waiting a long time for their GC because their country quota has been filled up by low-skilled cheaters.
The proponents of S386 claim that removing country caps is "fair", and would have you believe that country caps are discriminatory. This is a flawed argument, and is blantantly selfish. The country caps are designed to ensure diversity in the skilled immigration intake. Diversity makes America stronger and it is our right to try and ensure that. Getting a GC is not a right, it is a privilege a lucky few get. Getting a H1B is not a promise of getting a GC.
The effect of passing S386 is that Indians will consume the entire GC quota for the next 10+ years, assuming that there is no increase of cheating by ICCs and low-skilled Indian candidates. What this means is that candidates from the Rest of the World (RoW) will have to wait over 10 years before getting their GC whereas most countries currently have a wait time of under 2 years. Candidates from China currently have a wait time of 3-4 years (they are the second-largest skilled immigrant source) would also have their wait times exceed 10 years. There is a false narrative that Chinese candidates somehow support this "fairness" bill. In reality, most Chinese oppose this bill because they know they will suffer. S386 supporters are claiming Chinese support the bill in an effort to portray the bill as fair. Do not be fooled by this.
There is another false narrative that all the opposition to S386 can be traced to Iranian candidates. There is no evidence to support this claim. Like any other group, Iranians have advocacy websites which oppose this bill. It's unclear why Iranians are being used as a proxy for the "opposition", but it could well be a cynical attempt to leverage anti-Muslim sentiment and the current tensions with Iran.
Reasons to oppose S386:
1) If you are not Indian and want a GC, you will be screwed over. Your wait time will exceed 10 years. Sign a petition. Protest. Make your voice heard.
2) If you are American and you value diversity, call your representatives in Congress. Oh, and sign a petition and protest. It's our country and immigration should serve our interests, not the other way around.
3) If you are an honest, skilled Indian, whether or not you have a GC, you should be vocal against this bill. I understand if you are waiting a long time for your GC that you are frustrated, but if S386 passes you should expect that people assume you're one of the low-skilled cheaters, because statistically that pre-conception will be correct. You're going to have to prove your merit every time.
4) If you oppose rewarding cheaters or you want to keep the quality bar high, you should oppose this bill.
S386 proponents try and play the sympathy card and talk about how it's unfair for honest, skilled Indians to wait so long. Yes, that's a shame, but dumping the problem on RoW (who have by and large not cheated) is unfair and the notion of giving all these cheaters a free pass is repugnant.
Allow me to make an allegory. Family A does not care about sanitation, so they let the shit pile up outside the house on their property. The neighbours (B) are annoyed by the smell, but have no power to change it. They are grateful for having a strong fence. One day the shit starts overflowing into house A and they say "Sht inside the house is making our children sick, we must dispose of this shit", so they proceed to shovel the shit over the fence to B. When the neighbours object, they say "you are heartless, think of the children. Our children are innocent and have the right to a clean house. It's unfair for the shit to be unequally distributed".
The point of this allegory is not to say that Indians are shit. It is a story to elicit an emotional response to help show why S386 is repugnant to everybody else. Read it from the point of view of family B. I don't have a problem with Indians. I have worked with plenty of smart Indians. I have worked for and hired and mentored Indians. I have a problem with cheaters and people who are selfish and entitled.
In the story above, we (should) all feel sorry for the children of family A, since they are not at fault; it is their parents who are to blame. Even so, family B has every right to protect their property. Hollering "OMG! But think of the children!" is a disgusting, cynical attempt at manipulating the issue.
If the per-country caps are removed, the problem of low-skilled cheaters from India will likely grow 10x worse as more people will realise they can get away with this cheating and get their undeserving hands on a GC.
To solve the backlog problem, country caps should be introduced for H1Bs and other paths to GC, a rigorous merit test should be administered by the U.S. government, and people who do not meet the requirements should not enter a backlog but instead must leave when their temporary visa expires. That is a solution that gives certainty and relieves pain for the honest, skilled Indians waiting for a GC without rewarding and incenting the low-skilled cheaters. It is a solution that does not punish RoW for the problems coming from one country.
I am an American citizen and I endorse this message.
After seeing so many posts drumming up support for S386, packed with misleading statements and demanding "fairness", here is a post to seek support to permanently kill this selfish, repugnant bill.
- New user|nameIndian here, and I absolutely second your concerns. I hate it when low skilled people from my country come and get H1Bs. Usually such people don't assimilate well either. And definitely gives bad names to really skilled workers. Google, Amazon, Microsoft have a lot of Indians and you can't have low skills and get in them. But people here have to suffer because fraud companies abuse H1B process.
This has nothing to do with black or white. I came here to be the best, and at least work visas should be given to the highly skilled.Sep 28 7
- @NGge16 distraction sure, but you write like an average snob, Indian or otherwise. Bilingual Indians tend to be snobbier than a similarly educated American though, so I'd say it was more likely than not that this (a write up about a bill mostly about Indians) was written by an Indian.
- Google ULLV42I did not read the full post just the headline. Think about a rule where Greencard cap to a country like Iceland (Population 340K which is 1/10th the population of Los Angeles and 1/2 the population of SFO ) is same as that for India (Population 1.3B). Any logic to prove it to be fair is irrational.
- @Symantec you sure seem confused.. you just said a few posts above you want Google to be diverse and not "swamped by Indians" so you oppose S386. But when I asked, why force that through immigration policy, you say Google can have it's own hiring standards. This means you support S386 which is a bill that removes country cap restrictions on employment based green cards, allowing Google to do exactly that!
- @VMware: I don't know why your're so confused. I'll try explaining it again.
The U.S. government (on behalf of its citizens) decides who can come into the country. It's in America's best interests to ensure that there is diversity in each industry sector as well as across the entire immigration intake. S386 would destroy these goals, so that alone is reason to oppose it.
Companies (Google, Pizza Hut, Albertsons) can draw from the pool of legal residents based on their hiring standards. In other countries, the pool of legal candidates may have a very different mix, and companies operating in those jurisdictions will have to hire within the pool that is available there.Sep 29 2
- Lies again!
ALL Employment based visas combined amount to a tiny ~10% of immigration. It's impossible to destroy a majority of industry diversity when you are talking about a minority to begin with!
Also equality, not diversity, is enshrined in the Constitution and the very declaration of Independence. It is the core on which America was founded.
I'd like you to show me where it says diversity is a higher goal anywhere.Sep 30 1
- Yahoo tgbvOP You left out the facts to support your argument. Most of people in the backlog are already in US, have built their family and are contributing to the society in a positive way. The H1 B abuse is effective being contained by increased number of RFE and rejection the Consulting companies are getting in last two years. You also excluded that employment GC are limited to 3000 per each EB category and dependents ( wife, kids) are counted. Employment based GC per year is capped at 140,000 per year. US does support diversity using other methods(diversity quota, family GC). How can you use country of origin as criteria for employment based GC?
- It's an allegory. It doesn't call Indians shit. It's emotive and in your face because so many Indians are not able to understand or accept why what they're asking for is selfish and unfair.
S386 supporters are making obviously BS claims that country caps are racist. They say "fuck ICE" because they're not getting their GCs anytime soon. They claim that Indians are more qualified than RoW and that they are smarter (also obvious BS).
Your desperate hunger for those tasty GCs has made you lose all perspective. It's all just "us, us, us". Your selfish attempts to discredit and censor any disagreement is repellant. Welcome to the backlash.Sep 30 2
- I still believe your comments are stupid. Did you even read the bill completely?
1) Its not selfish and unfair. If that was then it wouldn't have got unanimous consent in Congress. Try telling your allegory to any of your Indian friends and see how they feel.
2) Country caps does seem to discriminate by country of origin for employment based visas. We won't care if that was for family based. What does someone's hard work and special skills has to do with their country of origin?
3) We'll anyways get H1 renewed forever as most of us have approved I140. It's just that GC gives us more mobility and reduces unnecessary paper work. Most importantly allows the Sr directors, managers in big companies to finally open their own business and create more jobs.
Read these points as many times as possible to get some sense out of it!!
- And I think your comments are stupid and selfish.
1) Congress is being lobbied hard by IV. Yet, despite UC, the bill has died again. Maybe some senators have seen through the smoke screen and the "Fairness" in the title and are seeing the problems.
2) Country caps ensure diversity in industry sectors. You don't care because you just want to be let in. But Americans (should) care because we don't want Silicon Valley to turn into India2. We want to keep it diverse.
3) I hope that S386 doesn't ever pass and the pain of the current situation finally leads to reform of H1B, L1 and OPT so that we can ensure diversity there. I note that Indian posters are wanting to spread the pain to RoW to try and trigger change, which is truly selfish. RoW has been following the rules and supported diversity.
You somehow seem to think that RoW and Americans have to have so much sympathy for Indians (who have a problem of their own making) that they are willing to be screwed over and/or give up their diversity goals. Get it through your head that others don't want to be dragged down with you.
I hope after reading this you will finally get it, but I don't expect it. You're too blinded by GC famine.
- Microsoft giggitycowFew things to clarify:
First of all bill is officially dead. So it has to start again from scratch in 2021.
H1B is abused by companies not individuals. Even bill is not passed there will be abuse - so raise your voice and ask for reform. S386 has nothing to do with H1B abuse
Backlog is not due to H1B - there is L1 and F1 Visa. If there was no backlog, believe me every 2nd Indian will come for F1 and get GC
There is 0 impact to diversity as there is no change in number of immigrants and non-immigrants coming. Even wait is 150 years they will not leave US
- Here's why he is wrong on all counts
1. The bill is not dead. Anyone with a tiny bit of legislative knowledge would tell you so. They can keep bringing it for UC of even vote.
2. H1b is abused by companies and knowing individuals. They know they abuse it, when they fake their resume and experience and when they sit benched without pay.
3. The backlog is mainly due to H1b, which is the biggest syphon towards EB GC. 75% of H1b gods to Indians.
4. S386 would impact diversity in the work space. No person outside of India would ever come to work here knowing he'll have to wait a decade for a GC. That's an Indian thing, they're desperate and fine to wait as long as necessary, since this gets them out of India.
So yeah, the comment above is a load of BSSep 28 3
- Cisco / Eng JsonfmoreI’m an indian and I agree with OP. I did my Master’s from a reputed university and am stuck in this line because of these ICCs and fake body shops. I support a merit based system. If the current system doesn’t change, I don’t mind going back to India. There are ample amount of opportunities back home
- I did not say people of merit should suffer. In fact, I said it's a tradegy that people of merit are suffering. It's a shame that people are responding to what I wrote without apparently reading it all or fully comprehending it.
What I object to is making RoW suffer too and also rewarding the cheaters. That's why I want a different solution than S386.
If instead y'all put your energies into supporting a decent, fair and sensible bill rather than S386, then we might actually increases the chances of a good solution. Sadly, all your energy is going into trying to secure all the GCs for Indians and shouting down any opposition to S386, no matter how thoughtful and measured it is.
- Yes your message comprehend that way as if you don’t care about people with merit.
If you don’t know much about RFE please google it and find that rate of rejection for all work visa of these ICC is all time high, ideally it should be done much earlier by the elite immigrant officials but he’ll no. Now post and people like you want no solution for those people who reached here on merit and proved their worth you are actually scared of being in the same shoes where there is no future even decades of wait.
Believe me OP you post is purely one sided argument which only increase hatred across communities
- Why are you so afraid of competition? Are you not good enough to compete with other talented individuals? Stop spreading such hate speech. If there was enough tech supply, there would be no H1B.
- Afraid of competition? Really? I'm in the top 1% of TC and IQ. ICC "graduates" are not in my league.
You are so blinded by self-interest that you resort to calling it hate speech because I made a thoughtful post which shines a light on the real issue. You clearly don't have a meaningful refutation.Sep 27 7
- Oath randGen%10tldr. I just want to say since India is such a great nation, the largest democracy in the world. I sincerely hope all the Indians go back to their wonderful home land and keep making it great.
- @otha That's relative. We have literally the highest %age of arable land, and can grow multiple. We're not the seventh biggest country, we're the biggest. We have such a huge population because we're productive enough to support it.
Our country is far from full. The bay area is breaking at the seams, and yet Indian cities function with way higher people/sq km. Nowhere in the world is full.
Sure I agree on population control and conscious instead of unconscious breeding, but the world can still support everyone here (and India alone can do that too)
- Yahoo nullpLike someone mentioned before, ICC bodyshops issue is being handled by strictly enforcing H1B screening. RFE and rejections are now more than 40% for those companie. They are already shifting their business plan. I agree with OP that that employment based GC should be based on merit.
Now, the question remains is whether we should have per country quota or not. May be some quota for under represented countries makes sense, but to have same quota for India or China vs Iceland doesn’t make business sense. After all, they represent the majority of world’s population. Statistically speaking, you should expect more engineers from there.
By holding onto the GC for ransom, all we do is create a system ripe for exploitation and wage suppression. They are already living and paying taxes here, with GC they might even think of starting their own business and contribute more to society.
- So many lies OP. You were unable to defend yourself in other posts when questioned logically so you combine all your lies into one post.
Read my post on the myth busters where I cite unbiased credible facts to back my statements ...
and compare that with your literal "shit-filled" rant.
I will respond with this..
American immigration is not a charity! Its purpose is to serve American interests and American interests alone, not to do social justice to immigrants from all over the world.
Today we have a system that gives a pizza delivery guy (EB3) from Ukraine while backlogging an Indian cancer researching PhD (EB1) just because of their countries of birth. That is against American interests and values on which America was founded.
S386 bill eliminates such discrimination and so is America first.
As for diversity, there is already a diversity visa category. If you believe that isn't sufficient call your senator and have them increase the number of diversity visas.
Tldr: you are wrong. Americans should support S386. Call your senators now!
- @VMWare America’s immigration system is socialistic, you get jobs based on your talent, pay taxes based on your income but get GC based on your country of birth and family ties.
The main problem is that the US has no competition (at least not yet), so it can afford to not care about merit based immigration. Side effects of monopoly.
Also, it seems like it’s super hard to get any bill passed in the US as any single senator can perpetually block a bill.
And yes, “diversity” argument doesn’t make sense in employment based immigration according to me. I am an ex-FB, G engineer followed every law in this country, but still stuck in backlog. It’s sad to see that people generalize all Indians to be bodyshop employees.
I don’t care what other Indians do. I came to the US as an individual for my own personal interests, it’s sad to see that I am blocked due to the scandals committed by other people who happened to be born in the same place I was born.Sep 28 3
- @VMware: ROFL. I defended my point of view elsewhere quite well. However, my points were spread out across various threads, so I wanted to collect many of them on one place.
It appears you think it's OK for you to post your point of view but it's not OK for me to post mine.
To be blunt, I don't believe your "unbiased credible facts" citations. I've seen other citations which show why S386 will screw over RoW (something you claim won't happen). I'll throw back your claim of lying right back at you.
It's not me who is wrong, it's you. Let us continue going around in circles so that we can make progress.
- USCIS needs to fix the h1b abuse first. If it keeps going like now, silicon valley will soon be silicon delhi.
- Gilead Sciences / R&D “...”OP, I was with you till you started making the analogy of families and that's when things started falling apart. Your problem, and that of some others on this forum, is that you are putting all Indians in one family. It's not that the entire populace of India took part in running an immigration scam to take over America. Your logic is just as good as saying that "Mexicans are rapists".
A few Indian companies schemed to game your system, while the cops in Congress were sleeping. It's not even the companies really because everything they did is perfectly fucking legal. Your lawmakers and your policymakers are dumbfucks who let one loophole after another get exploited by those unscrupulous operators. And it is your very American lawyers who helped those unscrupulous operators find ways to fuck the system.
At the same time many many Indians didn't go that route, went to top grad schools and landed jobs in top tier companies. Those people were fucked coming out of grad schools and realizing they don't even have a way of getting work permits and have to wait years to get a GC.
This is not an Indian problem, or a ROW problem or an American problem. Everyone here is on themselves and this is everyone's problem. Nobody is a family here trying to fuck over other families.
Now, do I think this bill is fair or will it solve anything? Shit no! But I will leave you with a few facts that will help you understand how things came to what they are today:
1. The first time H1B lottery was introduced was 2005, 14 years ago. There were people coming out of PhD/postdoc programs, including Indians, who were not able to get H1Bs. OPTs back then used to be 1 year only and post-docs don't even get OPT. Sure there is the route of O1 for PhD/postdoc, but it very cumbersome for employers so most don't bother. Many many Indians over the years have called lawmakers from both parties and asked them to look into this. You think your lawmakers did not know that 70% of H1Bs were going to people barely making 60k, much less than what American MBAs and MS/PhDs were making?
2. Barry O. and Harry Reid refused to take up any legal immigration reform bills. They wanted to reserve their time exclusively for CIR. Guess which lobby was that?
3. Barry O. even refused to acknowledge there was a problem with H1B after conferring with Big Tech CEOs. He specifically mentioned Zuckerberg. This is proof that it is not Indians who are lobbying for below par immigration, it is the companies that you guys work in.
4. 2 years ago, Diane Fienstein introduced a bill that would put a minimum 120k wage requirement for H1Bs. That bill totally disappeared and somehow and what got put on the top instead is S386. Now that makes you question why the Chamber of Commerce and Google/Alphabet chose not to lobby for a more sane TC based bill?
It's not just Indian companies who are screwing with the system. Two major sources of spilllover into EB2 used to EB1 and EB5. See #5 and #6 below with respect to those:
5. Agreed that EB1C is heavily utilized by Indian companies to send low-level managerial talent to the US. But there is also this "sudden surge" in the number of EB1Cs from Vietnam and Philippines. Who do you think are they?
6. The second major source of spillover used to be the EB5 investor visa. Then came Chinese "investor clubs". Nobody in those clubs were putting in the required 500k individually, they are paying 50k to large investors and getting in the line. Many of those investments are made into real estate developer companies. I remember getting an invitation to a very American lawyer's presentation to a Chinese meeting in Santa Clara few years ago about "busting the myths related to EB5 investor visa".
Once again, Indians themselves have been calling out all of this for years and asking lawmakers to take steps to fix the legal immigration system. Nothing got done in 20 years. Who do you think is to be blamed here?
Finally your proposed quota on H1B is as absurd as it gets. It solves nothing for those Indians who worked through the American education system and/or landed top-tier jobs because WITCH still will take away all the Indian H1Bs. It will just push legit Indians with no means to fight for themselves into a bigger hole. And then what would you propose to do if there are more applications from India -- do a lottery just for Indians? Also, what is to say that these companies can't just replicate their business model of sending cheap labor from other countries like Egypt and Ukraine? Why don't we instead talk of system like UK that bans outsourcing companies from getting PRs altogether? What not talk about a TC based bill like Diane Fienstein's?
- Oh. The distinction isn't clear from an earlier paragraph: "The tragedy of this is that there are honest, skilled Indians who are stuck waiting a long time for their GC because their country quota has been filled up by low-skilled cheaters."?
If energy had been directed into lobbying for a fair bill (not an unfair bill labelled "Fairness"), we would not have had these heated exchanges.
- @Garmin everyone is selfish. Noone would raise a voice unless they are personally affected.
The scams made by Body Shops only affects other law abiding Indians so ROW doesn’t care. But when it comes to S386 they use that issue to block it because it affects them.
Once S386 is gone ROW won’t give an F about the body shop scams (I mean yeah they will write about it on blind once in a while but won’t take any strong action like they did for S386.)
S386 would have evened out the effect of body shop scams to all countries which would have increased the support for merit based immigration.
But now I don’t see any reason why ROW would fight for merit based immigration. They are getting their GCs pretty easily and merit based immigration would rather harm some of them (by pushing their pizza boy behind an Indian enginner). So I have a feeling they would rather oppose it.
They might support GC count increase but it will get strong opposition from citizens.
We law abiding Indians are minority and it will be hard to push a change just by ourselves.
So doesn’t seem like any other reform is going to pass. We are effed.
- This post will get banned by community soon. OP, embrace it while it lasts. Thank you for writing so many words. Unfortunately there is a flaw in the blind system, which can be manipulated by trolls just the same way how Indian companies manipulate the h1b system.
- Why this post is still here ? Are we not marking it as hate speech already ?
- Agree with some of your points OP. But did you just liken people immigrating to the united states from india to shit spilling over a fence? Hella racist. Even if the said shit is referring to “ICC cheats”.
Also completely agreed that america does not owe any immigrants anything. But you have to agree that country caps are a random criteria. Like why is my destiny tied to a bunch of random people. I probably have more in common with a lot of the american kids i went to school with on account of shared experiences. Just saying, country caps are arbitrary. I cant control where i was born so it is kinda discriminatory. It is what it is though.
As for diversity, these people are already in america arent they, living their lives, raising their kids. Only thing is they cant do some things residents can like quit their jobs and start a business. So how do country caps ensure the right “mix” of diversity.
Also 100% agreed RoW folks arent going to be on board with this. They have no incentive to be.
- Because H1B is a dual-intent visa. For those who don't get approved for GC (not skilled enough, exceeding country cap), they are supposed to go back, since they are *temporary* workers.
If you come here on a temporary visa and put down roots and make a family, you're not entitled to complain if you end up being sent back when your visa expires. Why "settle down" if you don't have approval to stay?
- I dont follow, what youre trying to say here. If its along the lines of “you should know what youre signing up for before hand”, i kind of get what youre saying.
Those who dont get approved for GC should leave when their visa expires. No brainer.
But in this case neither is true is it. Visas are renewed indefinitely and people are being approved for GC. Sorry i dont understand what part of my comment youre responding to. So all i can say is, yes i agree with you that people without a visa or GC approval should leave 🤷🏻♀️
- Let me tell you exactly how it will play out once the government plans to implement your solution -
1. Country cap for h1b -> Someone will start saying that this incentivize outsourcing since most ICC will start significant discounts to get the business.
2. Rigorous merit test-> Who will administer that? USCIS? People will start claiming that the test is not rigorous enough or Indians are cheating in the test in the same way they say now ICC knows how to prepare cases for h1b etc.
- Databricks bqpfjaOptions:
A) maintain status quo
B) allowing Indian backlog for GC to be relatively quickly reduced - allowing many "undeserving" immigrants in with the few "deserving" ones
C) overhaul - set quotas on specific countries like India and/or validation of skills with penalties for lying for the company and/or a number of other ways to restrict the abuse of the system
- Another option would be to amend S386 to reject all H1B, L1 and OPT applications from Indian applicants for the duration of the GC backlog processing. This might make RoW feel less bad about being blocked from getting a GC for the duration of the backlog processing. I'd be interested in hearing if RoW candidates would like this tradeoff?
If you have previously claimed that the backlog processing will only take 2-3 years, then this is just a minor blip for those people in India who are thinking of applying for H1B. If the backlog processing takes 10+ years, then it might motivate you to campaign to fix the underlying problems that led to the backlog.
It will let in some cheaters in the backlog, but at least it would take away the claim that suffering Indians stuck in limbo for decades are being punished for the misdeeds of some. Clearly, not getting a H1B, L1 or OPT in the first place is not being left in limbo.
During the backlog processing, Congress will hopefully fix the systemic problems leading to the backlog, otherwise after things return to "normal", the backlog will just grow again.