Office Life

PM to Engineering Ratio

Wayfair / Eng
jwxs26

WayfairEng

PRE
Microsoft
jwxs26more
Mar 14

How many PMs to engineers does your team have?

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  • New
    EMVH32

    New

    PRE
    Amazon
    EMVH32more
    Zero. We fired them. They’re useless on a team of competent engineers.
    Mar 149
    • Wayfair str(10)
      Good luck, have fun.
      Mar 14
    • Facebook gEKd54
      Enjoy your work at New
      Mar 14
    • Salesforce Zed12
      So you have engineers talking to customers and driving product decisions? That seems risky.
      Mar 14
    • GoDaddy 5"6 Indian
      @Zed12 - with a team of competent, well-rounded engineers (e.g. not a team full of leetcoders), PM is just unnecessary overhead
      Mar 14
    • Salesforce Zed12
      Interesting. I haven't had the opportunity to work at a place like that, but I would definitely be interested in seeing the benefits/drawbacks. I feel like that would work well for a startup but could go poorly for a large corporation.
      Mar 14
    • New
      EMVH32

      New

      PRE
      Amazon
      EMVH32more
      I’ve seen it work in a large corporation too. It means engineers have to be on their feet and have real conversations and be responsible directly to stakeholders, but it can work.
      Mar 14
    • GoDaddy 5"6 Indian
      I think that's the key point. It can work at a smaller scale but won't work for a larger company.

      Gut feel the biggest factor why it won't work for larger companies is the hiring process doesn't emphasize the "original" culture anymore
      Mar 14
    • Facebook gEKd54
      There is no magic in the work of PMs and neither is there much magic in 99% of the work of swe...

      You can have self sufficient teams without any support and you can run an outsourced team of low paid engineers with a few months training that gets the job done.

      Most high performing teams have strong members of different roles. That's the case in ALL top performing companies (and even the teams that traditionally didnt have PMs are transitioning to pm support after recognizing they are underperforming despite having some of the strongest e6+ engineers)
      Mar 14
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      Verify profile or GTFO!
      Yesterday
  • Wayfair str(10)
    What if I have a 1:3.5 ratio? How would I choose an option?
    Mar 147
    • Twitch highfart
      Then you should quit your current job and join a company with the given poll ratio before choosing an option.
      Mar 14
    • Wayfair / Eng
      jwxs26

      WayfairEng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      jwxs26more
      OP
      I’m one of those 1:1, go Wayfair lol. Wouldn’t be so bad if PMs could code like at MSFT. Heck I’d take a PM who knew what an api is...
      Mar 14
    • New / ProductiTri
      Lol PMs don’t have to code, if your PM codes you aren’t doing your job. But if a Pm doesn’t know what an API is; the PM manager is doing a poor job hiring.
      Mar 14
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      No wonder, Wayfair is bleeding money ! 😉
      The stock about to crater in a year or so.
      Yesterday
    • Wayfair / Eng
      jwxs26

      WayfairEng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      jwxs26more
      OP
      lol exactly, even our performance PM doesn’t have an engineering degree, too many officers (business people) not enough soldiers (Engineering, design)
      Yesterday
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      Do you get RSUs? Or are you working like salesforce.org ?
      Yesterday
    • Wayfair / Eng
      jwxs26

      WayfairEng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      jwxs26more
      OP
      Yeah when I was hired everyone at Wayfair gets RSUs I think even call center folks though I heard it changed for them recently
      Yesterday
  • Microsoft / Product
    Brazuka

    MicrosoftProduct

    PRE
    Bain & Company
    Brazukamore
    Microsoft's average is around 1:3-4. Too many PMs and little proactive devs/EMs because of it.
    Mar 147
    • New
      EMVH32

      New

      PRE
      Amazon
      EMVH32more
      ^^^^^ THIS !!
      Mar 14
    • Wayfair str(10)
      This is Wayfair's problem - now imagine layering in a complete lack of technical leadership (CTO and architects who have never been engineers or haven't been writing code for >10 years) and Product leadership who have never been PMs before (management consulting, business development)
      Mar 14
    • New
      EMVH32

      New

      PRE
      Amazon
      EMVH32more
      Yuk.
      Mar 14
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      No wonder the company is not profitable and the W CEO and other insiders are selling the stock at every available window.

      #HouseOfCards

      Meltdown inevitable.
      Yesterday
    • Wayfair topUser
      I wouldn't say inevitable. You can get REALLY far managing by spreadsheet and hiring poorly.
      Yesterday
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      LOL 😂🤣
      Yesterday
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      Are you planning to sell your Wayfair RSUs? Why would you keep them when Shah(CEO) and other leaders are selling every few days?
      Yesterday
  • New / ProductiTri
    Totally agree, Microsoft’s issue is PMs have to do too much project mgmt. sometimes devs saying can you open a bug? Pls open your own damn bugs if you find a mistake in your system. So PMs become shitty project mgrs. PMs should be doing more architecture and specs and not being told to schedule meetings.Jesus if you know you need a meeting schedule it yourself I’m not your secretary. If you really need a secretary; grow to A director role and get a business admin. . Now PMs barely do competitive analysis because of all this shit. Leads to shit product.
    Mar 142
    • Wayfair str(10)
      PMs shouldn't do "architecture." They should articulate business needs and customer needs in a clear and concise enough way that engineering understands how to build the thing. It's not up to PMs to do technical designs.
      7d
    • AIG / Product
      Raging

      AIGProduct

      PRE
      Deloitte Digital
      BIO
      Counseling CxOs for AI-first strategy !
      Ragingmore
      Msft acquired product orgs such as LinkedIn are also getting similarly bureaucratic or so I've heard.
      Yesterday
  • Verizon ucHe57
    My manager has 10 full time reports and 10 contractors
    Mar 140
  • This comment was deleted by original commenter.

    • Wayfair / Eng
      jwxs26

      WayfairEng

      PRE
      Microsoft
      jwxs26more
      OP
      6+ 🙄
      Mar 14

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